The biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character

[Orangine]

The biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character. Let me explain my opinion. It's just an opinion based on personal experiences and feelings. Nothing too serious. I am sure there will be many comments saying how much they do well as a melee, without conveniently omitting their outrageous number of past lives. I am talking about a typical newbie here.

Let's not beat around the bush. For the most part, melee characters are subpar to casters or rangers (Not the class, just the playstyle) on all aspects except when it comes to DPS or tanking in high difficulty raids or high reaper quests when there are some CC involved. But let's say on R1, which is the most common difficulty in public groups, melees cannot compete with casters/rangers because monsters are simply too weak and die too fast.

A new player will innocently join a public group, which is typically on R1 difficulty to maximize XP, and they will realize that they won't have any kill. In fact, it will be a miracle if they can even land a hit before everything get one shotted by the casters or rangers. Of course since I have much experience as a caster, I know what to expect when I login with my melee. I know my strengths and I know this is absolutely normal and I appreciate the casters carrying me through the quest quicker. But I don't think this knowledge is obvious for a beginner and most importantly I don't think it's fun. Maybe I am wrong, but they probably thought that perhaps they would be on equal grounds with the other members of the group and be useful. Feeling useless is not fun unless of course you are knowledgeable and know what to expect.

I realized this while playing with a friend who is not very experienced. He usually plays a melee because that's what he enjoys and I decided to roll a caster to play with him. At first I was trying to play efficiently, just like in any public group in R1, which usually means just run ahead and 1 shot everything. Any experienced caster above level 5 can usually do it without trouble. Then I realized I had to slow down. Sure I would wait for my friend between each pack, but he never even had time to land a hit because enemies in R1 are just so weak and they die with a single aoe spell. I could tell he was getting frustrated and I realized that I had to purposely play badly so he could enjoy his melee character. Let him have kills and enjoy the game. We were both first lifers but the main difference is I was a sorc and him a fighter. Now I think everything is fine and he's having lots of fun since I had to downgrade my gameplay. Eventually I respec'd and focused on CC instead of damage so he can enjoy the game. Increasing the reaper difficulty is also not an option because self-healing and tanking as a melee fighter is too painful. I didn't even have to worry about my spell points because I could simply consume the souls.

Now imagine this guy joining a very typical random public group on R1 difficulty. Do you think he would have fun? I think there is no chance he would be even close to have any fun. It would leave him a bitter taste of uselessness. A new player who cares about being useful would either roll a caster/ranger just like everybody else or quit the game. Someone who enjoys playing a melee would most likely quit.

Why would anyone play a melee anyway, unless it's exclusively for raiding or high reaper content? They actually have to walk close to their enemies (zzz) in order to deal their lacking DPS while taking damage. And most of them have crappy self-healing that don't scale well. Like potions, you don't go far with potions as a newbie melee in R1. It sounds tedious just writing about it. I guess a melee is fun if you have low expectation and know what you are doing. It's true that melees learn decent self-healing from epic destinies, but it's meaningless if the average beginner won't even reach there.

Sorry for the long post and broken english.

Edit : typos

[Marshal_Lannes]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons. On hardcore, FVS is the most popular class but the next two would probably be paladin and some version of barbarian. Paladin and barbarians offer many advantages beyond kill count to new players. In terms of kill count, yes casters dominate up to R4 but once you get into 6 through 10 mobs start making their saving throws and melee dramatically close the gap. Melee also has a major advantage in most raids.

[Oxarhamar]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons. On hardcore, FVS is the most popular class but the next two would probably be paladin and some version of barbarian. Paladin and barbarians offer many advantages beyond kill count to new players. In terms of kill count, yes casters dominate up to R4 but once you get into 6 through 10 mobs start making their saving throws and melee dramatically close the gap. Melee also has a major advantage in most raids.

It's still a problem for new players especially when they are feeling like they are contributing nothing many players don't like to pike even if you do

Feeling like they contributing nothing they ain't going to be sticking around until raid scene

There was a screen cap of classes data on HCL that will prove you wrong with that guess

[droid327]

A new player will innocently join a public group, which is typically on R1 difficulty to maximize XP, and they will realize that they're basically getting XP for free

This is called powerleveling in most games, and is usually something players actively welcome

You can make an argument the game is doing a disservice by not letting new players get more experience with their builds before they advance to higher-level content, but you cant really make it out to be a bad thing that you're basically getting the maximum amount of XP you can get just for running through a map

[Arellano]

A new player isn't going to be on equal footing or be anywhere close to as useful as the other veteran members in a typical R1 PUG.

If I was playing a melee in a group of newbies with tricked out ranged and caster builds I would still probably lead the kill count or compete solidly...

This isn't because I'm particularly skilled mind you, it's because about 62% of my total brain capacity is dedicated to knowledge about a decade-and-a-half old game no one's heard of...

[elvesunited]

I'd say the biggest mistake a new player can make is to group with a power-leveling group.

Then you won't be able to enjoy the quests. Do the game with other new players. ( good way to do that is not run higher than elite )
Actually explore the dungeons. Beat the enemy on your own or with players of similar strength. Do the optionals.

Why ruin the experience by doing a quest the first time with a bunch of power levelers who burn through a quest so fast you barely know what happened?

[BiggerTroll]

A new player isn't going to be on equal footing or be anywhere close to as useful as the other veteran members in a typical R1 PUG.

If I was playing a melee in a group of newbies with tricked out ranged and caster builds I would still probably lead the kill count or compete solidly...

This isn't because I'm particularly skilled mind you, it's because about 62% of my total brain capacity is dedicated to knowledge about a decade-and-a-half old game no one's heard of...

Carry me Daddy.

[Fauxknight]

I'd say the biggest mistake a new player can make is to group with a power-leveling group.

Agreed. Even as a ranged or caster a new player is not going to be contributing significantly to kill counts in a power-leveling group. The only difference here in not being a melee is that they'll die less. The best contribution a new player would have in such a group might be as a healer, which is (usually) not a good option for solo work or learning the game.



Melee is generally the most forgiving option for new players, and learning the game is done best by not joining power-leveling groups. In fact in my experience most new players who try to join power leveling groups over simply enjoying and learning the game end up burning out fast and quitting

[Drachmoril]

Maybe this is true within the skillspace of "a moderately experienced player compared to a complete newbie," but beyond that, this post is perfectly inaccurate.

First, for the veteran: you can absolutely blast through low-mid level heroic content on a melee. As fast or faster than any other option. Go roll a brand new barb, pick up a greataxe, and enjoy holding the W key on elite / R1 until about level 16 - where you'll only need to make some slightly more conscious choices about how you plan to stay alive. THF in particular is in a very good place. And my current SFW bard / barb / cleric build is perhaps the fastest heroic leveler I've made to date (finally, a one-day TR seems quite doable!). Admittedly an optimal heroic leveler is probably an EK inquis these days, but it doesn't matter much when you can one-shot things on a SWF hitting things at the speed of light, traveling with full bard + barb + sprint boost speed bonuses... and this is from about level 3 to 30.

And, for the completely new player: there is little stronger than a THF at low levels, especially in the hands of someone who has absolutely no idea what they are doing. Sure, an inexperienced player isn't going to achieve even a fraction of their class's potential power. But that rings true with any of your ranged / casting counterexamples; and with a barbarian, pally, ranger, or fighter, it's kind of hard to go wrong when your play demands holding down the attack button.

I've seen new players completely underuse their spell point pool as a sorcerer, or fail to make the optimal build / play decisions when leveling any ranged, casting, or melee class. Noting how you had to slow yourself when playing with a *newbie* should tell you next to nothing about the actual class balance. This will be true of any class matchup. A skilled sword-and-board pure fighter will absolutely blaze past any newbie caster / ranged build. Either you're having a discussion about new player experience, or veteran viability, but not both.

And if you want to talk killcount, I have been playing melee for my last few lives (fully-DPS-optimized THF, then SWF more recently), and can count the number of times I've failed to dominate the killcount from 1-20 on one hand! (Notable exceptions being quests with large packs of mobs on a SWF, when partying with a skilled aoe DPS). I'm not saying melees are far and away stronger than other heroic options. Rather, with a very active playstyle, and very DPS-optimized character building / gearing, you can dominate regardless of what build you play (if, like me, you center your fun around such things!)

Build balance aside, your original claim just doesn't hold up. ANY new player will contribute almost nothing in a super zerg group. (By the way, props for slowing down! I also like to slow down greatly when showing new players the ropes). But if you're talking "mistakes," melee classes are far more forgiving to build when compared to the sorcerer who can't easily swap their spells, or almost any more nuanced specialty class. And they are far more forgiving to play, when swinging your greataxe often IS the best thing you could be doing right now. I will admit that a bow ranger is also quite easy for a new player to stumble into great DPS success with. And, of course, a sorcerer, with a bit of feat and spell guidance (maximized+empowered SLAS will dominate low levels, then pick up big-name AOE damagers, for instance).

[Weemadarthur]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons.

Just for novelty value (and possibly shock value too so sorry if your drinking coffee when you read this Marshal) I 100% agree with this. Melee is the easiest class to learn to play on (I always recommend either pally or Barb for 1st lifers). A new player will never break any records regardless of class yet the combination of good survivability with adequate damage (even on bad build variants) makes Barb or Palli a lot more forgiving than any ranged or caster build.

[Bluenoser]

No, I think the biggest mistake would be rolling up a first-life, level 1 wizard and then trying to solo only with spells. There's a reason you hire Byron Scoutsword the barbarian to do those first couple of levels for you.

[slarden]

Of all the threads complaining about melees seem off-base to me, but this one is by far the most baffling and that is a high bar to reach as the other threads are quite baffling as well.

Last summer I created a new free-to-play account and experimented with melee, ranged and casters and finally settled on Paladin to level up.

A melee is hands-down the best build for not only a new player, but also a vet with a new character on a new ftp account. My paladin had no tomes, no hand-me downs, no money spent on the ftp account and I was able to solo almost every heroic quest in the game on R1. Casters and ranged were much tougher to solo which is why I gave up on those builds after testing and settled on paladin.

The reason melee and specifically paladin is really good is very simple - strike through and no cost for dps was a major dps boost. Paladin KOTC Tier 5 is also quite amazing once you get there, but the whole tree is great.

So nothing changed since U51 besides the removal of meld and literally nothing changed with levels 1-20 which is where new players start.

it's the same coordinated lobbying we've seen in the past from the same group of people. They are salty that casters got a dps boost and want moar power even though melees still significantly out-dps casters. It doesn't matter that they are top dps, it doesn't matter that they are highly effective in raids and R10s. This group will always demand moar power and nerfs to other builds.

I don't play one style, I play them all. 2 of my main charcters are melees including my primary raiding character and primary R10 character.

[MaeveTuohy]

No, I think the biggest mistake would be rolling up a first-life, level 1 wizard and then trying to solo only with spells. There's a reason you hire Byron Scoutsword the barbarian to do those first couple of levels for you.

One of the few parts of DDO that remains true to PnP.

[Question2005]

OP hit the nail on the head. It is exactly what my new player experience was like when everyone told me to roll a paladin.

The melee experience when leveling is awful. The game is extremely biased against melee and its worse at cap after meld was nerfed.

The first ranged life i did (inquis)...after nothing but melee lives...was amazing. Its like trying to play an online FPS game with a 56k modem and then switching to fiber internet...the difference is that big.

I was actually able to kill mobs when running in a party. My survivability sky rocketed even though i was wearing light armor and had lower PRR/hp. My DPS also sky rocketed, especially when leveling...inquis when leveling massively outdpses most melee builds and pre-buff 2HF. I could take on way tougher encounters solo and because i was killing stuff so much faster, my quest clear times were much faster as well. No more did i have to slowly run from one archer to another archer mob...i could just stand still and gun them down like i was using a machine gun.

On a melee life, you are stuck running slowly into range while the ranged/casters in the party do all the work, at least when leveling. Most new players are not going to find this fun. They want to feel like they are contributing to the party.

Its just sad the way melee has been butchered in this game. In D&D, a 2HF powerattacking fighter is the king of raw damage and most encounters take place at ranges short enough that it only takes one or two rounds to run into melee range before the fighter can start swinging. In DDO, spellcasters can cast 1 spell per second and ranged builds can put out a ridiculous amount of attacks while kiting effortlessly, and they can shoot from the edge of the screen.

To put things into perspective, in D&D, a fighter in heavy armor can run up to 80 ft in one round (6 seconds). Thats the range of a light crossbow before it starts taking penalties. In DDO, by the time a fighter runs into range, pretty much all the mobs are already dead, so he serves no purpose.

In D&D, melee massively outdamages ranged because they get str mod to damage while ranged gets nothing. In DDO, only 2HF outdamages ranged, and only at cap. And im not even sure if 2HF still outdamages ranged since horizon walker is the new hot sauce apparently.

I would recommend ranged builds to new players, but for some funny reason, the best ranged builds all require paid expansions (sharn for inquis, saltmarsh for horizon walker). Deepwood stalker, arcane archer, mechanic, battle engineer...they are all badly obsolete now. And with casters, they are going to struggle with SP and spell DCs, ontop of being really squishy without past lives and reaper AP (getting nuked into oblivion from AOE spam, since DDO doesnt have spells to protect against that).

[Arkat]

I'd say the biggest mistake a new player can make is to group with a power-leveling group.

Then you won't be able to enjoy the quests. Do the game with other new players. ( good way to do that is not run higher than elite )
Actually explore the dungeons. Beat the enemy on your own or with players of similar strength. Do the optionals.

Why ruin the experience by doing a quest the first time with a bunch of power levelers who burn through a quest so fast you barely know what happened?

Yeah, this is more of an issue for new players than Melee vs. Ranged vs. Spellcasters.

[TFerguson]

Better advice is new players shouldn't run too much with veterans. We'll ruin their fun.

Learning to play together with people of the same experience level as you is a great joy in this game, why ruin that? Don't rob yourself of the fun.

[Weemadarthur]

OP hit the nail on the head. It is exactly what my new player experience was like when everyone told me to roll a paladin.

The melee experience when leveling is awful. The game is extremely biased against melee and its worse at cap after meld was nerfed.

The first ranged life i did (inquis)...after nothing but melee lives...was amazing. Its like trying to play an online FPS game with a 56k modem and then switching to fiber internet...the difference is that big.

I was actually able to kill mobs when running in a party. My survivability sky rocketed even though i was wearing light armor and had lower PRR/hp. My DPS also sky rocketed, especially when leveling...inquis when leveling massively outdpses most melee builds and pre-buff 2HF. I could take on way tougher encounters solo and because i was killing stuff so much faster, my quest clear times were much faster as well. No more did i have to slowly run from one archer to another archer mob...i could just stand still and gun them down like i was using a machine gun.

On a melee life, you are stuck running slowly into range while the ranged/casters in the party do all the work, at least when leveling. Most new players are not going to find this fun. They want to feel like they are contributing to the party.

Its just sad the way melee has been butchered in this game. In D&D, a 2HF powerattacking fighter is the king of raw damage and most encounters take place at ranges short enough that it only takes one or two rounds to run into melee range before the fighter can start swinging. In DDO, spellcasters can cast 1 spell per second and ranged builds can put out a ridiculous amount of attacks while kiting effortlessly, and they can shoot from the edge of the screen.

To put things into perspective, in D&D, a fighter in heavy armor can run up to 80 ft in one round (6 seconds). Thats the range of a light crossbow before it starts taking penalties. In DDO, by the time a fighter runs into range, pretty much all the mobs are already dead, so he serves no purpose.

In D&D, melee massively outdamages ranged because they get str mod to damage while ranged gets nothing. In DDO, only 2HF outdamages ranged, and only at cap. And im not even sure if 2HF still outdamages ranged since horizon walker is the new hot sauce apparently.

I would recommend ranged builds to new players, but for some funny reason, the best ranged builds all require paid expansions (sharn for inquis, saltmarsh for horizon walker). Deepwood stalker, arcane archer, mechanic, battle engineer...they are all badly obsolete now. And with casters, they are going to struggle with SP and spell DCs, ontop of being really squishy without past lives and reaper AP (getting nuked into oblivion from AOE spam, since DDO doesnt have spells to protect against that).

There is 1 thing that you (and others that post this same message) overlook. Those palli lives you ran made your ranged build a lot lot better. By the time you got to starting on a ranged build you already understood the games mechanics, had at least a semi decent amount of build and quest knowledge plus were running a 32 point+ build. That makes for a much easier game as a ranged than if you try playing one with no game knowledge, no gear, no understanding of build mechanics and a 28 point character.

In this game knowledge really does equal power. Knowing how to play means a lot more than your class, playstyle or gear setup. To get that basic knowledge at the start of the game melee is most definitely the option with the easiest learning curve and is the hardest to get wrong. Once you have that basic knowledge and 32 point character access though, then I would agree with you.

Lastly DS, AA and Mech are far from obsolete. A good DS/AA build can still put out comparable dps to an inquis, a good mech build is actually better sustained dps and some of the absolute top ranged dps builds either invest heavily or at least splash into those trees. Don't fall into the trap of thinking just because inquis is easy that it is best. Other options can be better they just require a lot more work to achieve.

[Weemadarthur]

Better advice is new players shouldn't run too much with veterans. We'll ruin their fun.

Learning to play together with people of the same experience level as you is a great joy in this game, why ruin that? Don't rob yourself of the fun.

I would actually say this is great advice except there are very very few new players. Its hard to quest with a group that just isn't there or at the wrong level range.

[ahpook]

Better advice is new players shouldn't run too much with veterans. We'll ruin their fun.

Learning to play together with people of the same experience level as you is a great joy in this game, why ruin that? Don't rob yourself of the fun.

Many have already said this in response to OP but it can not be said enough and thus I will say it again:

The biggest mistake a new player can make is to run reaper content with vets. They will not have the skills or knowledge to be effective no matter the class they play. Reaper is not forgiving of mistakes and a new player that goes off or ahead will die unfairly and not enjoy the game.*

I would actually say this is great advice except there are very very few new players. Its hard to quest with a group that just isn't there or at the wrong level range.

Even then the advice stands. It is probably better to solo and learn to play rather than group with vets running reaper.

* as with all things some exceptions apply especially for exceptional people. Most people are not exceptional.

[Orangine]

Of all the threads complaining about melees seem off-base to me, but this one is by far the most baffling and that is a high bar to reach as the other threads are quite baffling as well.

Last summer I created a new free-to-play account and experimented with melee, ranged and casters and finally settled on Paladin to level up.

A melee is hands-down the best build for not only a new player, but also a vet with a new character on a new ftp account. My paladin had no tomes, no hand-me downs, no money spent on the ftp account and I was able to solo almost every heroic quest in the game on R1. Casters and ranged were much tougher to solo which is why I gave up on those builds after testing and settled on paladin.

The reason melee and specifically paladin is really good is very simple - strike through and no cost for dps was a major dps boost. Paladin KOTC Tier 5 is also quite amazing once you get there, but the whole tree is great.

So nothing changed since U51 besides the removal of meld and literally nothing changed with levels 1-20 which is where new players start.

it's the same coordinated lobbying we've seen in the past from the same group of people. They are salty that casters got a dps boost and want moar power even though melees still significantly out-dps casters. It doesn't matter that they are top dps, it doesn't matter that they are highly effective in raids and R10s. This group will always demand moar power and nerfs to other builds.

I don't play one style, I play them all. 2 of my main charcters are melees including my primary raiding character and primary R10 character.

I think you misunderstood the overall point of this post. As I said, melees are good when it comes to DPS or tanking in high difficulty raids or high reaper quests. I was talking about the most common difficulty setting : R1. The reason why this post is directed toward this difficulty level specifically is because newbies are more likely to exclusively play in that difficulty when joining public groups. In R1, unless the casters/rangers are unexperienced or not focused, I have a hard time understanding how it's even possible to contribute less than a melee regarding overall damage output and kill count. The monsters are very weak and usually a single spell can clear an entire pack. This is from my experience as a caster anyway, either druid, fvs soul, wizard, sorc, or bard (at higher level). If I really want to maximize XP/Time, there is no way a melee character can compete because I am range and monsters are weak and they can be killed in an instant meanwhile the melee has to actually run close. Melees can solo quests very well although a bit slower but it works for sure. But I am wondering if new players with limited friends are really going to solo that much? Speaking for myself, when I begin a new MMO, I always try to group up with others. A beginner playing a caster or ranger will at least be able to land a few spells or hits before the mobs are dead. I can tell my beginner friend gets frustrated whenever he takes the time to walk up to an enemy, land a few hits and then the caster denies his kill with a finger of death or whatever other spell.

I play a lot of melee as well and I know what to expect whenever I run R1 with a public group. Casters 1 shot everything and I am all good with it because I know that my strengths as a melee don't shine in lower difficulties. My strengths shine in raids or higher reaper. But beginners don't know that, they want to feel useful. Anyway, hope you got my point. As I said, it's just an opinion based on my experiences with my beginner friend. My post is not true or false, it's just the output opinion from a beginner's perspective.