Argonessen World Issue: February 8th

[Cocomajobo]

UPDATE: Argonnessen has reopened.

We are investigating an unplanned downtime of Argonessen. We will provide more information when available.

[Cordovan]

Argonnessen has reopened. We apologize for tonight's issue, and will be continuing to investigate the cause.

[Evean]

Argonnessen has reopened. We apologize for tonight's issue, and will be continuing to investigate the cause.

Instead of a launcher message that reads:
———
Argonnessen Unavailable
UPDATE: Argonnessen has reopened
———

Why not simply remove the entire “Argonnessen Unavailable” message when the worlds reopen? If it’s up, you don’t really need to know it used to be down (or that it’s up for that matter). The only time communication needs to happen is when it’s down. Unless of course it’s an ongoing issue. Or if there’s a pragmatic issue I’m unaware of.

When you see “Unavailable” you think “Oh carp! I can’t play video games!” Then you read “UPDATE: Back up” and think “Yay! Wait a sec, why are you telling me “down” when it’s not down? You just scared me for nothing…”

It makes me think of a sign on a (brick and mortar) store that says “We were closed yesterday.”

[Antheal]

Instead of a launcher message that reads:
———
Argonnessen Unavailable
UPDATE: Argonnessen has reopened
———

Why not simply remove the entire “Argonnessen Unavailable” message when the worlds reopen? If it’s up, you don’t really need to know it used to be down (or that it’s up for that matter). The only time communication needs to happen is when it’s down. Unless of course it’s an ongoing issue. Or if there’s a pragmatic issue I’m unaware of.

When you see “Unavailable” you think “Oh carp! I can’t play video games!” Then you read “UPDATE: Back up” and think “Yay! Wait a sec, why are you telling me “down” when it’s not down? You just scared me for nothing.”

It's usually standard practice to keep old information up, regardless of whether it's still relevant information, just for reference purposes.

[Evean]

It's usually standard practice to keep old information up, regardless of whether it's still relevant information, just for reference purposes.

“Standard practice” is moot. My point still applies, standard or no. No one needs to know you used to be closed, “just for reference.” It’s irrelevant noise.

EDIT: Think of it this way; Someone stops you on your way into the grocery just to tell you “Did you know we’re not closed?”

[Antheal]

“Standard practice” is moot. My point still applies, standard or no. No one needs to know you used to be closed, “just for reference.” It’s irrelevant noise.

EDIT: Think of it this way; Someone stops you on your way into the grocery just to tell you “Did you know we’re not closed?”

I dunno, maybe they just want to archive all of the announcements that they've made regarding the game worlds.

[Evean]

I dunno, maybe they just want to archive all of the announcements that they've made regarding the game worlds.

Also irrelevant. Now my comment is: “This message, and the ‘standard practice,’ and the decision to publicly archive down-times in the launcher message, all need to be re-thought.”

It’s genuinely laudable you choose to come to their defence, but your efforts might be doing more harm than good! lol

[Steeme]

Also irrelevant. Now my comment is: “This message, and the ‘standard practice,’ and the decision to publicly archive down-times in the launcher message, all need to be re-thought.”

It’s genuinely laudable you choose to come to their defence, but your efforts might be doing more harm than good! lol

I disagree. The notification system is fine. This isn't the time for make-work projects as the developers are busy with real issues.

Go out for a walk or something.

[Evean]

The notification system is fine.

Then we have different meanings for “fine.” I’ve seen messages in the launcher telling me “The game was down, but now it’s back up” over a week old. You’re correct, it’s nothing to get outraged about, but there’s also no need for it. And “There’s more important things to worry about” is a poor argument. It takes less time to delete “Down” than it does to add “No longer down.” If you think your version is better, or mine is worse, explain why. “Because I like it” isn’t an argument. I’m not attached to my ideas, I’m attached to good ideas.

And all of that aside, if it’s a virtually effortless fix, that would result in an overall improvement, why not do it?

[salmag]

Instead of a launcher message that reads:
———
Argonnessen Unavailable
UPDATE: Argonnessen has reopened
———

Why not simply remove the entire “Argonnessen Unavailable” message when the worlds reopen? If it’s up, you don’t really need to know it used to be down (or that it’s up for that matter). The only time communication needs to happen is when it’s down. Unless of course it’s an ongoing issue. Or if there’s a pragmatic issue I’m unaware of.

When you see “Unavailable” you think “Oh carp! I can’t play video games!” Then you read “UPDATE: Back up” and think “Yay! Wait a sec, why are you telling me “down” when it’s not down? You just scared me for nothing…”

If I log into the game and see "Argonesson Unavailable," I understand I can not log into Argonesson at this time. I log in a couple of hours later and see the update stating it's open. I understand I can log in now.

If I didn't try to log in during the downtime, I had no reason to think there was a problem; so when I log in and see that Argonesson was down and now it's back up, I have several things to think of:

1. Glad I didn't try to log on earlier. Sigh of relief.
2. There was a problem, so I keep it in the back of my mind in-case I start experiencing issues.
3. Hopefully, I won't experience lag since they took it down and brought it back up.
4. Hopefully, they fixed some lag issues during the downtime.

It makes me think of a sign on a (brick and mortar) store that says “We were closed yesterday.”

If you drove by looking for brick and mortar yesterday and saw they were closed, you'd know not to stop.
Unless they put a sign in the window, or on the door, that says open, and you drove by, you'd think they were still closed. If there is no sign acknowledging open or closed, you'd keep driving by.

Bottom line:
MORE COMMUNICATION IS BETTER.

Thank you Devs.

[Arkat]

I disagree. The notification system is fine. This isn't the time for make-work projects as the developers are busy with real issues.

Go out for a walk or something.

Yes

+1

[Cordovan]

Instead of a launcher message that reads:
———
Argonnessen Unavailable
UPDATE: Argonnessen has reopened
———

Why not simply remove the entire “Argonnessen Unavailable” message when the worlds reopen? If it’s up, you don’t really need to know it used to be down (or that it’s up for that matter). The only time communication needs to happen is when it’s down. Unless of course it’s an ongoing issue. Or if there’s a pragmatic issue I’m unaware of.

When you see “Unavailable” you think “Oh carp! I can’t play video games!” Then you read “UPDATE: Back up” and think “Yay! Wait a sec, why are you telling me “down” when it’s not down? You just scared me for nothing…”

It makes me think of a sign on a (brick and mortar) store that says “We were closed yesterday.”

I used to do this and had some folks on the forums here accuse us of trying to "hide" problems and pretend downtimes didn't happen. After it became an issue and community moderation trigger enough times, I started keeping the messages up for ~12 hours afterwards. Was better to let it sit a bit longer than we'd like rather than deal with the fallout of removing it too soon. Additionally, there are some people who prefer to check the game launcher to see if the issue is fixed before logging in by reading it is now open in the launcher news. Finally, we have a bunch of things like player-created Discord and guild web site bots that take the launcher news feed and populate that messaging elsewhere, so removing something like an "Argo down" without doing the "world has reopened" bit leaves them without the messaging they are looking to use for their own purposes.

[Uralte]

Instead of a launcher message that reads:
———
Argonnessen Unavailable
UPDATE: Argonnessen has reopened
———

Why not simply remove the entire “Argonnessen Unavailable” message when the worlds reopen? If it’s up, you don’t really need to know it used to be down (or that it’s up for that matter). The only time communication needs to happen is when it’s down. Unless of course it’s an ongoing issue. Or if there’s a pragmatic issue I’m unaware of.

When you see “Unavailable” you think “Oh carp! I can’t play video games!” Then you read “UPDATE: Back up” and think “Yay! Wait a sec, why are you telling me “down” when it’s not down? You just scared me for nothing…”

It makes me think of a sign on a (brick and mortar) store that says “We were closed yesterday.”

To click or not to click? That is the question.

Argonnessen is my home server. If another server is down, I wouldn't know it and I wouldn't prowl the forum looking for information about it; it is not relevant to me. It is just that easy to filter out unwanted/unnecessary information with my built in auto-filter 9000 MK XII. If you feel that these announcements are unwanted/unnecessary for you personally, upgrade your built in auto-filter to the 9000 MK XII auto-filter by Spishak!

[Evean]

If I log into the game and see "Argonesson Unavailable," I understand I can not log into Argonesson at this time. I log in a couple of hours later and see the update stating it's open.

Incorrect. You see “Down” and you know it’s down. When the game up, like it is 99.9% of the time everyone logs in, you see nothing. Not a “Not down” sign. You’re simply trying to rationalize bad design, instead of making an effort to think of good design.

Imagine a sign IRL that looks like this:

———
C L O S E D
(not actually closed)
———

Are you trolling me and I can’t tell? Surely the absurdity of such a sign requires no explanation?

EDIT: As an aside for future reference, a “brick and mortar” store is a term for real-life physical stores, used to distinguish them from online stores. Not a store that sells bricks and mortar. Similarly, an “Internet store” is a store on the internet. Not a store that sells internet. And what I was describing was the uselessness of a sign informing someone of things that had already happened. Such as “Sale: Yesterday.”

Lastly, more communication =/= better. Don’t be ridiculous. Following this logic, you’d consider it better if I informed you of everything, including things that didn’t happen:

Yesterday, you didn’t die from cancer. Or bear attack. And the world didn’t explode. And I didn’t buy a new Gameboy. And I don’t have three heads. And I can’t fly. And you can’t drink gasoline. Also, I didn’t go to the store to buy pants. I’m hungry, but I’m not a sure what I want to eat. Maybe a sandwich? Darn. I don’t have any bread. What is that smell? It smells like urine. Did you hear that? I think I heard something…

[Evean]

Finally, we have a bunch of things like player-created Discord and guild web site bots that take the launcher news feed and populate that messaging elsewhere, so removing something like an "Argo down" without doing the "world has reopened" bit leaves them without the messaging they are looking to use for their own purposes.

A perfect example of technical pragmatics of which I was not aware.

Or if there’s a pragmatic issue I’m unaware of.

[Antheal]

It’s genuinely laudable you choose to come to their defence, but your efforts might be doing more harm than good! lol

It wasn't my intention to appear to be defending anyone. I was pointing out that having the superfluous and no-longer-relevant information still being posted, is a commonplace practice.

If anything, pointing out when they've fixed an issue also highlights each time there is an issue.

"Oh, The worlds have reopened? I guess that means it must have been DOWN. AGAIN. Sooo encouraging!"

[Evean]

I was pointing out that having the superfluous and no-longer-relevant information still being posted, is a commonplace practice.

I understood that. And my response was: “That’s a silly practice. Just because it’s common doesn’t make it good.”

[Antheal]

I understood that. And my response was: “That’s a silly practice. Just because it’s common doesn’t make it good.”

Fair point.

[Evean]

fair point.

EDIT: “standard practice” is moot.

Could also be phrased “Standard practice is a moot point.”

[salmag]

Incorrect. You see “Down” and you know it’s down. When the game up, like it is 99.9% of the time everyone logs in, you see nothing. Not a “Not down” sign. You’re simply trying to rationalize bad design, instead of making an effort to think of good design.

Imagine a sign IRL that looks like this:

———
C L O S E D
(not actually closed)
———

Are you trolling me and I can’t tell? Surely the absurdity of such a sign requires no explanation?

Not trolling you. See a CLOSED sign is one thing. If there is not a sign that says OPEN, how would you know? If the lights are on? Could be cleaning personnel in there. Maybe it's too dark to see if the lights are on.

EDIT: As an aside for future reference, a “brick and mortar” store is a term for real-life physical stores, used to distinguish them from online stores. Not a store that sells bricks and mortar. Similarly, an “Internet store” is a store on the internet. Not a store that sells internet. And what I was describing was the uselessness of a sign informing someone of things that had already happened. Such as “Sale: Yesterday.”

Typing out "Brick and Mortar" store is a little redundant (especially by your standards). Just say "store." Oh, and there ARE stores that sell brick and mortar. Similarly, there ARE stores that sell Internet access. I've never heard of an "Internet" store except for those that offer internet access. I have heard of "online stores," where one can go to a website and buy things.
BTW, if the website had an item that was out of stock, wouldn't it be nice to know (like on the websites home page); subsequently, wouldn't it be nice to know when that item WAS back in stock. Notification on the home page seems like a good idea.

Lastly, more communication =/= better. Don’t be ridiculous. Following this logic, you’d consider it better if I informed you of everything, including things that didn’t happen:

Yesterday, you didn’t die from cancer. Or bear attack. And the world didn’t explode. And I didn’t buy a new Gameboy. And I don’t have three heads. And I can’t fly. And you can’t drink gasoline. Also, I didn’t go to the store to buy pants. I’m hungry, but I’m not a sure what I want to eat. Maybe a sandwich? Darn. I don’t have any bread. What is that smell? It smells like urine. Did you hear that? I think I heard something…

Sorry for the wall of text coming up, but you offered so much I just had to address them.

I am so glad I haven't died from cancer yet. My wife keeps telling me to go see the Dermatologist though. The bear attack made me acutely aware of how deadly nature can be. I agree that war is not a good thing and I am sorry for the various places in the world that do explode, frequently. If you had three heads, maybe you could communicate better with yourself. Sorry you can't fly, I know a lot of people are scared to go on planes too. You could drink gasoline, you're just choosing not too (which is smart, btw); some people do consider alcohol a form of "gasoline" (I guess it's just in the context). You say you didn't go to the store to buy pants; were you looking for Brick and Mortar? Do you need pants? Do you buy your pants at an "Internet" store? If your still hungry, a sandwich might not be enough. However, you need bread; will you get that at the "brick and mortar' store, or a grocery store? You could order it through an internet store. I hope your toilet's not having problems (causing the urine smell), or if you have pets, there might have been an accident. I hope you figure that one out. I didn't hear what you heard, but if I was you, I'd go investigate.

If not for our communication, I wouldn't have learned so much. I thank you for that.

I still stand by my statement, though. More communication IS better. Especially when you're invested in it.
We, as players, continually ask the devs for comments. It's nice to get any information from them. If you have such a problem receiving communication, why come to the forums? Just ignore their statement.

AND you would've never known about the "pragmatic" issue (with Discord), without the Cordovan stating it.