making a pure pally vang to just waddle through the game, opinions wanted

[Snapdragoon]

plan is pure 20 aasimar S/B to just go full unbreakable ball and walk through the game.

questions are:

-tower shield or no?
seen some debate but does not seem to REALLY be an issue until epic 30's were you can get a lot of dodge and then heavy starts eeking out, but for just being a tanky ball and walking through fireballs and traps, should I spend the feat on tower shield prof?

-longswords yeah?
silver flame, knight training feat, etc. thinking of just going longswords and calling it good, not going for bsword and trying to fit in THF feats too (unless this is just THE way to go, let me know)

that's pretty much it, lemme know your thoughts ^_^ and thank you ahead of time.

[Soulfurnace]

-longswords yeah?
silver flame, knight training feat, etc. thinking of just going longswords and calling it good, not going for bsword and trying to fit in THF feats too (unless this is just THE way to go, let me know)

Bsword doesn't work as it has to be a favoured weapon. The big-brain move is play a DORF with Daxes. They're a favoured weapon from 12 ap in racial tree, allowing you to get all those tasty kotc buffs and then vanguard cores. AOE damage, 1.6x ability mod.. hard to argue with that. It'll out dps a longsword, and do it as AOE as a bonus.

[palladin9479]

What is the goal of this build? Are you playing for tank and relying on others or are you trying to kill stuff yourself?

Really impact because Vanguard is not a tank tree, it's a DPS tree that is kinda bad until mid to late Epics when it blossoms into awesomeness.

[Snapdragoon]

What is the goal of this build? Are you playing for tank and relying on others or are you trying to kill stuff yourself?

Really impact because Vanguard is not a tank tree, it's a DPS tree that is kinda bad until mid to late Epics when it blossoms into awesomeness.

the goal is to solo / kill stuff myself, while ignoring anything that might trouble me, traps? walk through them, saves? paladin, healing? aasimar + umd. etc. damage is just looking to be passable.

thats the main reason i dont go fighter, i want the saves and immunities from pally that let me just walk through content ignoring mechanics and hitting things. thats why S/B pally, for the increased damage reduction vs reflex saves (traps and booms etc.)

though most feedback seems to be that vanguard capstone is **** (as the stun got the nerf) so im not against going two fighter for the feats, also considered 18 fighter 2 pally to still get a saves bonus (capped but still a bonus)

[A-O]

Shield doesn't offer much in heroics. Everything is squishy so you're better off running THF with an e.g. great sword in heroics with kotc + spare points in SD. In epics you can go heavy shield. I'd run capstone in SD, and 30odd points in vanguard. Rest in racial + divine might. For epics, run bsword or daxe (see discussion above on which type). Note you you won't need it to be a favored weapon if you skip kotc (which I recommend if you want to be very tanky in late epics higher R).

[Komradkillingmachine]

Shield doesn't offer much in heroics. Everything is squishy so you're better off running THF with an e.g. great sword in heroics with kotc + spare points in SD. In epics you can go heavy shield. I'd run capstone in SD, and 30odd points in vanguard. Rest in racial + divine might. For epics, run bsword or daxe (see discussion above on which type). Note you you won't need it to be a favored weapon if you skip kotc (which I recommend if you want to be very tanky in late epics higher R).

I mean before lvl14 I'd agree on simple THF with Gswords but after that Twinblade and Talon becomes available and it's a ridiculously strong duo with the right enhancement spread.
Also, SaD capstone in epics? are you for real?

[A-O]

I mean before lvl14 I'd agree on simple THF with Gswords but after that Twinblade and Talon becomes available and it's a ridiculously strong duo with the right enhancement spread.
Also, SaD capstone in epics? are you for real?

sos has 12 base dmg, with 40 str you get +45 with THF. So 57 base damage. 14-20x4

Twinblade is 18.5 base damge, with 40 str you get +24 with THF. So 42.5 with 16-20x3.

It's not even close. The differences gets even larger if you have proper amounts of strength. Even a carnifex far outpasses twinblades + talon.

As for epics. I play R10. VG capstone isn't great. And SD gives you effectively +250hp which is an insane amount of EHP for a tank build. He asked for a tankier build, I gave him what works in high difficulties with gear, or lower difficulties without gear.

99% of bad R10 runs is people dying and lack of a proper tank. SD capstone will speed up R10 far more than the other capstones (on a tank). DPS is a non-factor in this game these days. Mobs don't have enough HP, and they do too much damage. So building tankier is the way to go unless you've already got a dedicated tank.

[palladin9479]

the goal is to solo / kill stuff myself, while ignoring anything that might trouble me, traps? walk through them, saves? paladin, healing? aasimar + umd. etc. damage is just looking to be passable.

thats the main reason i dont go fighter, i want the saves and immunities from pally that let me just walk through content ignoring mechanics and hitting things. thats why S/B pally, for the increased damage reduction vs reflex saves (traps and booms etc.)

though most feedback seems to be that vanguard capstone is **** (as the stun got the nerf) so im not against going two fighter for the feats, also considered 18 fighter 2 pally to still get a saves bonus (capped but still a bonus)

Vanguard Capstone is epic powerful around level 29, extremely meh before then. You run something like 36 points in KoTC of the T5 and 41 points in Vanguard. At 29 you use the Legendary Best Defense and end up doing quite a bit of damage. Again Vanguard is not a tank tree, don't think of it as providing you defense but rather letting you offhand a 50lbs club. Sacred Defender is the defense tree, put around 31 points in it and your fine, 41 into KoTC and the rest wherever you want. I highly doubt your "running R10", so no need to go super tank mode.

On your question about swords, combat style feats aren't optional, you need at least four feats to cap out Epic Defensive Fighting bonus HP and Shield feats don't count. The two options are SWF or THF and each has it's own pro / con. SWF attacks hella fast and Long Swords are high damage weapons with the free Knight's Training. From 20 to 30 there is a steady upgrade from Oath Blade -> Fell Blade -> Soulrazer (or other Lv 29 Legendary Long Sword). With THF you can run the Sword of Shadows at 10 and obliterate Heroics, but at 20 your stuck with a Borderlands Greatsword until 29 when you can use the Blackrazor or other 29 Legendary Great Sword. B.Swords come up but those aren't Favored without using a +1 Heart and abandoning whatever goal you had before posting this thread. Dwarf + DWA is good if you have a bunch of spare racial AP to make it worth taking. This is why shield builds are so cumbersome on Paladin, they don't mature until near cap and require a bunch of requirements just to make viable.

[Komradkillingmachine]

sos has 12 base dmg, with 40 str you get +45 with THF. So 57 base damage. 14-20x4

Twinblade is 18.5 base damage, with 40 str you get +24 with THF. So 42.5 with 16-20x3.

It's not even close. The differences gets even larger if you have proper amounts of strength. Even a carnifex far outpasses twinblades + talon.

As for epics. I play R10. VG capstone isn't great. And SD gives you effectively +250hp which is an insane amount of EHP for a tank build. He asked for a tankier build, I gave him what works in high difficulties with gear, or lower difficulties without gear.

99% of bad R10 runs is people dying and lack of a proper tank. SD capstone will speed up R10 far more than the other capstones (on a tank). DPS is a non-factor in this game these days. Mobs don't have enough HP, and they do too much damage. So building tankier is the way to go unless you've already got a dedicated tank.

Twinblade is all that + 10% combat style alacrity (VG core 4/6) and the difference only increases with more cores.

Also, why are you ignoring Talon's DPS? What if I told you VG is basically a TWF build with Shield as your off-hand weapon? Stunning shield is great, Missile shield is amazing. It adds several layers of defense and it makes melee soloing even easier.

I play R10s too, so? I don't grab VG capstone either, KotC capstone is just objectively better for DPS. SaD capstone is for real tanks only.

That bolded statement is a joke. At that point just admit that you're Utility and prefer to get carried by proper DPS builds.
Either build a Tank or a DPS - there is no middle ground.

[A-O]

Twinblade is all that + 10% combat style alacrity (VG core 4/6) and the difference only increases with more cores.

Also, why are you ignoring Talon's DPS? What if I told you VG is basically a TWF build with Shield as your off-hand weapon? Stunning shield is great, Missile shield is amazing. It adds several layers of defense and it makes melee soloing even easier.

I play R10s too, so? I don't grab VG capstone either, KotC capstone is just objectively better for DPS. SaD capstone is for real tanks only.

That bolded statement is a joke. At that point just admit that you're Utility and prefer to get carried by proper DPS builds.
Either build a Tank or a DPS - there is no middle ground.

10% aspd doesn't nearly make up for sos having 80% better crit profile and twice the base damage with high strength. And if you're getting core 4 in vg at level 12 you're forgoing kotc when leveling. Which is far superior.

you think I'm guessing. A quick glance at my sig would tell you I don't guess about DPS.

Of coruse kotc is "objectively better for dps", that's a asinine statement. We're talking about a "pure pally vang to just waddle through the game", and a kotc at R10 can't do that. If you want a tankier build, SD is objectively better.

A full tank SD + VG puts out ~4.5k ST DPS***, and 3k strikethrough DPS. About 40% of the DPS a pure dps kotc puts out. And in R10 trash dies instantly, and bosses die hilariously fast if you've got someone to tank it. The difference between R10 40 minute wipe fests and R10 10 min speed runs is a good frontline.



*** duration 10 minutes, shatter only debuff. Both builds higher in burst situations (dummy tests) and/or raid situations.

[Komradkillingmachine]

10% aspd doesn't nearly make up for sos having 80% better crit profile and twice the base damage with high strength. And if you're getting core 4 in vg at level 12 you're forgoing kotc when leveling. Which is far superior.

you think I'm guessing. A quick glance at my sig would tell you I don't guess about DPS.

Of coruse kotc is "objectively better for dps", that's a asinine statement. We're talking about a "pure pally vang to just waddle through the game", and a kotc at R10 can't do that. If you want a tankier build, SD is objectively better.

A full tank SD + VG puts out ~4.5k ST DPS***, and 3k strikethrough DPS. About 40% of the DPS a pure dps kotc puts out. And in R10 trash dies instantly, and bosses die hilariously fast if you've got someone to tank it. The difference between R10 40 minute wipe fests and R10 10 min speed runs is a good frontline.



*** duration 10 minutes, shatter only debuff. Both builds higher in burst situations (dummy tests) and/or raid situations.

I have no idea what you're even talking about at this point. Just admit that you are utility and prefer to get carried by better players who would complete those R10s regardless if you are inside the quest or not. Also don't understand why you keep bringing up wipe fests, lol. Like its an either or situation. Lagwipes don't count.

I would never recommend a SaD capstone for a new player regardless of their build. You're just setting them up for failure. Especially if you keep selling it under "R10 ready" sauce.

[Hobgoblin]

I would never recommend a SaD capstone for a new player regardless of their build. You're just setting them up for failure. Especially if you keep selling it under "R10 ready" sauce.

not to completely derail thread - but wouldnt sad cap be good for a pure pally tank?

[Komradkillingmachine]

not to completely derail thread - but wouldn't sad cap be good for a pure pally tank?

Pure pally tank? yes.

As a first lifer (or low lifer)? nope.

[A-O]

I have no idea what you're even talking about at this point. Just admit that you are utility and prefer to get carried by better players who would complete those R10s regardless if you are inside the quest or not. Also don't understand why you keep bringing up wipe fests, lol. Like its an either or situation. Lagwipes don't count.

I would never recommend a SaD capstone for a new player regardless of their build. You're just setting them up for failure. Especially if you keep selling it under "R10 ready" sauce.

If you had any semblence of knowledge of who I am you'd know I've been the prime advocate of DPS the past 13 years. This has shifted because the meta has shifted. DPS isn't needed anymore. 1 sorc is sufficient to clear all trash, the rest of the party is there for instagibs, cc, and boss tanking/DPS. If you don't think R10s are wipefests then you haven't PUGed it enough. It's easy with a dedicated group, but with PUGs it's all about survivability.

Regardless. To not derail this **** anymore. There are a few options for OP.

KOTC capstone, VG cores S&B = mediocre DPS, low survivability
VG capstone, kotc cores = medicore DPS, low survivability
KOTC capstone, SD cores = high DPS, mediocre survivability
SD capstone, kotc cores = low dps, high survivability
SD capstone, vg cores = mediocre DPS, high survivability

[palladin9479]

not to completely derail thread - but wouldnt sad cap be good for a pure pally tank?

Pure pally tank? yes.

As a first lifer (or low lifer)? nope.

Sacred Defender cap is only for pure tanks, and you can't run a pure tank as a first life toon. Being a real "tank" in DDO requires a giant stack of past lives, especially of the Epic Variety. When three out of the four spheres give critical defense stats as passives and the fourth sphere gives a very useful passive stat they become mandatory for "tanks". It's why I asked the OP what his ultimate objective was as "tanks" are stupid slow to level / build. Even the players who are "super tanks" don't actually level as tanks, they go as DPS and then respec when they get near cap.

And then we got the R10 crowd butting into another "first life / early toon question" thread, as though what works in R10 "Rocket Tag" is even remotely useful at R1.

[A-O]

Sacred Defender cap is only for pure tanks, and you can't run a pure tank as a first life toon. Being a real "tank" in DDO requires a giant stack of past lives, especially of the Epic Variety. When three out of the four spheres give critical defense stats as passives and the fourth sphere gives a very useful passive stat they become mandatory for "tanks". It's why I asked the OP what his ultimate objective was as "tanks" are stupid slow to level / build. Even the players who are "super tanks" don't actually level as tanks, they go as DPS and then respec when they get near cap.

And then we got the R10 crowd butting into another "first life / early toon question" thread, as though what works in R10 "Rocket Tag" is even remotely useful at R1.

You're not wrong on a lot of stuff. And I agree. You won't be building an R10 tank without a lot of past lives, but you'll get a strong viable tankier character without past live. I should know considering I got back to the game last summer with 3 epic lives, 0rpoints, 0 racials, 0 icons, 5 heroics.
For a new player, you won't be tanking R10. You won't be tanking R7. But you will hold your own just fine below that, even with 0rpoints and 0 past lives. Assuming you've A) got gear. B) build for it.
There isn't much vital in the ways of damage for a no-lifer when it comes to past lives. 99% is from gear. You'll reach R10 DPS just fine with a no-lifer melee build, if you've got the gear. So, imo and from my experience as a no-lifer to R10 player, tankiness > DPS. And a 41KOTC ~36SD THF build does that just fine. But if you want to get in a bit more survivability, a 41SD/34ish VG does just just fine for a no-lifer as well. Both in the damage department and survivability department.

You'll never be as good as a full lifer, but that's true regardless if you go full DPS or full tank. At least tankier you'll be able to take a stray hit on higher Rs without dying. And you'll sure as **** be able to solo more.

[palladin9479]

You're not wrong on a lot of stuff. And I agree. You won't be building an R10 tank without a lot of past lives, but you'll get a strong viable tankier character without past live. I should know considering I got back to the game last summer with 3 epic lives, 0rpoints, 0 racials, 0 icons, 5 heroics.
For a new player, you won't be tanking R10. You won't be tanking R7. But you will hold your own just fine below that, even with 0rpoints and 0 past lives. Assuming you've A) got gear. B) build for it.
There isn't much vital in the ways of damage for a no-lifer when it comes to past lives. 99% is from gear. You'll reach R10 DPS just fine with a no-lifer melee build, if you've got the gear. So, imo and from my experience as a no-lifer to R10 player, tankiness > DPS. And a 41KOTC ~36SD THF build does that just fine. But if you want to get in a bit more survivability, a 41SD/34ish VG does just just fine for a no-lifer as well. Both in the damage department and survivability department.

You'll never be as good as a full lifer, but that's true regardless if you go full DPS or full tank. At least tankier you'll be able to take a stray hit on higher Rs without dying. And you'll sure as **** be able to solo more.

While PL's don't add much for offense (9% double strike isn't small), they add an immense amount of suitability. A no-lifer who attempts to run anything past R5 is going to be dead the vast majority of time unless they play a ranged toon.

First lifers shouldn't be thinking high reaper, they need to be thinking about becoming second lifers, then third lifers, then fourth and so on until they got a decent chunk of PL's in place. Doing that XP at R1/2 should give enough RP to get some decent survivability and they can raise the bar a bit. Rinse repeat and the bar slowly moves up as power progresses.

[A-O]

While PL's don't add much for offense (9% double strike isn't small), they add an immense amount of suitability. A no-lifer who attempts to run anything past R5 is going to be dead the vast majority of time unless they play a ranged toon.

.... because they need survivability. Which they get from my suggested SD focus. Hence the entire point of my suggestion.

(9% DS is about 3-6% DPS depending on build. Hardly anything but small in current meta)

First lifers shouldn't be thinking high reaper, they need to be thinking about becoming second lifers, then third lifers, then fourth and so on until they got a decent chunk of PL's in place. Doing that XP at R1/2 should give enough RP to get some decent survivability and they can raise the bar a bit. Rinse repeat and the bar slowly moves up as power progresses.

And my suggestion is to make that progress as smooth as possible. That means THF kotc build in heroics. Focus more SD in epics if hard. Then at 29 swap to SD/VG and run tanky R5 PUGs. You'll be fine survivability-wise. And fine DPS wise. And you'll get a lot more exp, and have a much smoother experience doing it.

[palladin9479]

.... because they need survivability. Which they get from my suggested SD focus. Hence the entire point of my suggestion.

(9% DS is about 3-6% DPS depending on build. Hardly anything but small in current meta)



And my suggestion is to make that progress as smooth as possible. That means THF kotc build in heroics. Focus more SD in epics if hard. Then at 29 swap to SD/VG and run tanky R5 PUGs. You'll be fine survivability-wise. And fine DPS wise. And you'll get a lot more exp, and have a much smoother experience doing it.

This is one of those "what works in R10 is bad in R1" things. SD T5 / Capstones would be completely useless at lower difficulties as it's complete overkill. 31 points for the 18 core and some T4 abilities is more then sufficient to solo R1 from 1 to 30, leaving 41 or more for more DPS in KoTC and there is plenty in KoTC to spend those points on. 8/11 charges of LoH that recharge and over 1,500 HP means that if a player dies in R1 it's their own fault for being negligent.

Move the difficulty slider up several notches into the Rocket Tag territory, and you end up needing every scrap of defense just to survive.

Also 9% DS is more then 3-6% when we remember that people XP to level and spend most of their time not with legendary gear on. At this very moment I'm a level 9 halfling rogue with knives at 25% double strike, 9% of that is from my Martial Active. Now once I get to legendary, well then 9% becomes kinda small in the grand scheme of things.

Then at 29 swap to SD/VG and run tanky R5 PUGs. You'll be fine survivability-wise. And fine DPS wise. And you'll get a lot more exp, and have a much smoother experience doing it.

Vanguard is worthless without building for it, meaning either using a heart and rearranging feats or sacrificing feat slots from the beginning knowing they won't be doing anything for a long time. Honestly if a first lifer gets to 29, their only focus should be to get to 30 and hit that TR button, NOT stay and mess with R5. Attempting to do R5 will just be a terrible experience, I know because I have a first life toon in epics that I occasionally join guildies for mid to high tier Reaper and boy it sucks. I'm essentially leeching from them because of the massive power difference. Even low tier reaper can be a struggle. After a few trips from 1 to 30 and a small cache of RP earned in the process, a player can then transition to more involved gameplay.

[A-O]

This is one of those "what works in R10 is bad in R1" things. SD T5 / Capstones would be completely useless at lower difficulties as it's complete overkill. 31 points for the 18 core and some T4 abilities is more then sufficient to solo R1 from 1 to 30, leaving 41 or more for more DPS in KoTC and there is plenty in KoTC to spend those points on. 8/11 charges of LoH that recharge and over 1,500 HP means that if a player dies in R1 it's their own fault for being negligent.

You said " A no-lifer who attempts to run anything past R5 is going to be dead the vast majority of time unless they play a ranged toon.". and I counter that with saying if you build correctly, you'll be fine. You're also underestimating how weak a no-life no gear character is. Soloing R1 isn't a given, particularly not for a new(er) player.

Move the difficulty slider up several notches into the Rocket Tag territory, and you end up needing every scrap of defense just to survive.

Which is my point. You suggest to run R1 with a DPS build until you farm X number of lives. I suggest run R1 level 1>28. 29>30 run tanky and run R5. Then TR once you've got all 30s down on R5 or whatever.

Also 9% DS is more then 3-6% when we remember that people XP to level and spend most of their time not with legendary gear on. At this very moment I'm a level 9 halfling rogue with knives at 25% double strike, 9% of that is from my Martial Active. Now once I get to legendary, well then 9% becomes kinda small in the grand scheme of things.

I was talking about cap. But yea, it's better when leveling. (Though in your case it's still low, since it's not off hand DS. Going from 14>25% mainhand means gaining 5% more attacks. Which translates pretty accurately to 5-6% dps.

Vanguard is worthless without building for it, meaning either using a heart and rearranging feats or sacrificing feat slots from the beginning knowing they won't be doing anything for a long time. Honestly if a first lifer gets to 29, their only focus should be to get to 30 and hit that TR button, NOT stay and mess with R5. Attempting to do R5 will just be a terrible experience, I know because I have a first life toon in epics that I occasionally join guildies for mid to high tier Reaper and boy it sucks. I'm essentially leeching from them because of the massive power difference. Even low tier reaper can be a struggle. After a few trips from 1 to 30 and a small cache of RP earned in the process, a player can then transition to more involved gameplay.

Just pick up shield mastery at 18 and imp at 24. You'll be fine without 2 extra toughness feats.
Imo, the time spent getting 100-200k Rexp by running 30s on R5 with a tanky build will be worth far more than getting a headstart on your TRing. Plus, a new player might want to experience endgame raids, etc.
And it doesn't have to be R5. All I'm saying is, it'll be higher R than it'd be on a more dps focused character. And it'll be smoother. the SD capstone gets mightier the lower baseline you have (fewer Rpoints etc.) since the 250hp will be a greater number relative to your current HP. and the heal when incap will be higher since R will be lower. And you're also more likely to make misplays, which grants further advantages to a safety net. Ironically, the kotc capstone becomes worse, since you're less likely to encounter reapers to keep your stacks up when you run low R.