Nerf and bug fix Dire Charge

[Tilomere]

It is very simple. Melee should not have 4x the dps of a dps caster while also having the AoE CC utility of a dps caster.

Not only is it very simple, the ability itself is bugged, and the DC is too high by 10, causing it to succeed 50% more of the time than intended, which is throwing epic feat selection and the power between melees (such as monks) and every other source of dps in the game out of whack. As stated by Steelstar:

Mass Frog (and Epic Destiny Feats that are also Spells with DCs in general) is hampered by how code handles Class feats. Doesn't fall under the banner of "easy", sadly, and our previous attempts at fixing it ultimately didn't work well enough to make it to live. It's something we'd like to fix, but it's larger than the average bugfix; we need to re-write parts of spellcasting code to fix it.

If this is something you would like to fix, just leave the class level 29-30 part, and add a -9 modifier at the end and make it close enough.

This is causing nerfs to be directed at melee classes such as monks, which is ruining heroic class balance, which was already dominated by warlocks. The problem is high level melee, and as such, bug fixes and nerfs should be directed where they belong.

It will also fix all the melee complaints about a lack of CC against undead and other targets if it is converted to a non-helpless 3 second knockdown. Reaper mode is supposed to be about teamwork, not someone using bugged dire charge to solo R7 to replace CC classes with a higher dps melee class, countering the reaper mob saves increase by the bug, and using bugged self-healing that also isn't supposed to bypass the reaper penalty.

[simo0208]

One ability, not available until level 29 and which has massive number of limiting factors (low burst radius, many mobs immune in that content) is neither necessary nor appropriate to "fix" or "nerf." Just because dire charge outperforms your perfect sound burst build does not mean it should be nerfed.

Also, there was zero mention that I can find that showed that monk dps was nerfed because of dire charge. Further, heroic monk dps vs warlocks has nothing to do with dire charge as the feat is not available until level 29.

So yeah, problem solved. Find better arguments.

[slarden]

What new nerfs are you talking about. Dire charge is fine.

[Kaboom2112]

While I agree with you that DPS casters could use some love, this is not the right way to do it.

[PsychoBlonde]

Nah.

And melee don't have "4x the DPS of a DPS caster". A proper DPS caster hits numerous targets simultaneously. They clear masses of mobs with vast efficiency. Single high-hp mobs are their bane. (Of course, on sufficiently high Reaper, ALL mobs are high-HP, so it gets wonky.) For melee, the equation is usually reversed. They can burn down a single mob with unbelievable speed, but a large pack is too dangerous. They need heals and crowd control.

There are melee abilities that do pretty much what Dire Charge DOES on several trees. The stun doesn't last nearly as long as the cooldown. It gives you a few seconds breathing room, but by itself it is merely nice to have.

[Chai]

One ability, not available until level 29 and which has massive number of limiting factors (low burst radius, many mobs immune in that content) is neither necessary nor appropriate to "fix" or "nerf." Just because dire charge outperforms your perfect sound burst build does not mean it should be nerfed.

The fact thats its a clear cut best choice means its OP. A symptom of that is it outperforms fort save CC because they have to balance high end fort saves on dire charge usage.

Also, there was zero mention that I can find that showed that monk dps was nerfed because of dire charge. Further, heroic monk dps vs warlocks has nothing to do with dire charge as the feat is not available until level 29.

So yeah, problem solved. Find better arguments.

The issue is monk was nerfed due to their high end capabilities, and in the nerf threads, people ONLY want to talk about high reaper and endgame balance, which includes ED stuff and epic feats anyone can have, which is a smoke and mirrors argument. The nerf hurt monks in heroics due to what you just stated - some of the stuff that made them OP in legendary reaper quests didnt come from the class itself and in the case of dire charge is level 29-30 only.

The "better argument" for a nerf for monks in heroics needed to come from examples of how they were OP in heroics. I have yet to see that argument posted, yet they still took that nerf on the chin due to the filibustering of the 12 people at endgame complaining about OP DPS in endgame only, in part due to a weapon that is also endgame only.

[Qhualor]

Too busy riding the reincarnation train to really check this out for myself, but when I see Dire Charge as a must feat for every melee class in just about every build discussion thread, it does make me think it could be too OP.

Mental note. Check out Dire Charge next time Lamannia is open.

[Jandric]

It is an interesting, if extraordinarily narrow argument. Melee toons are OP compared to casters because of burst radius cc, the ability to out damage casters when dealing with trash mobs, and a method of healing not nerfed by Reaper? Have you run with a Warlock? Because this sounds much more like the WAI Warlock than melee toons. I certainly don't see an overabundance of Barbs and Fighters in reapers. If I had to pick out the predominant archetypes, I'd say it's mostly Warlocks followed by Rage Archers.

Do you remember when reaper mode was still new? People didn't want to accept melee toons unless they already had a cc caster in the group. It was much easier to fill with Warlocks and ranged builds that weren't exposed to the punishment that melees take.

[J-mann]

It is an interesting, if extraordinarily narrow argument. Melee toons are OP compared to casters because of burst radius cc, the ability to out damage casters when dealing with trash mobs, and a method of healing not nerfed by Reaper? Have you run with a Warlock? Because this sounds much more like the WAI Warlock than melee toons. I certainly don't see an overabundance of Barbs and Fighters in reapers. If I had to pick out the predominant archetypes, I'd say it's mostly Warlocks followed by Rage Archers.

Do you remember when reaper mode was still new? People didn't want to accept melee toons unless they already had a cc caster in the group. It was much easier to fill with Warlocks and ranged builds that weren't exposed to the punishment that melees take.

I think you miss read his post. He was saying that melee are much weaker at trash clearing than casters.

[J-mann]

Oh and tilo fort saves are balanced around necro dc casters because instakills are so powerful they are the balancing lever. Not dire charge. Try again on nerfing melees.

[Jandric]

I think you miss read his post. He was saying that melee are much weaker at trash clearing than casters.

The OP?

[Renvar]

Of course Dire Charge is the only valid level 29 ED feat option for melees. It is the ONLY CC feat (aoe or otherwise) available to melees in epic or ED feats. Same as Overwhelming Crit is the only Melee DPS epic feat in epic levels that are not tied directly to rogue or monk. Hence it is BiS for Level 21. But that doesn't mean it is OP. Same with Perfect X weapon fighting. Those are BiS for epic destiny feats for melees because there's really very few other compelling options. (but at least there, there are some other options, like First Blood and Holy Strikes and such). It would be great if they made one or more Epic feats for CC (and/or more ED feats) that attacked different saves (will, for example) and were effective against a different type of mobs. Maybe with some different requirements to make them more build specific or appropriate.

Dire Charge itself is not over powered. The DC is strong, but not automatic unless you make a sizable investment in gear, enhancements, feats, and PL's. The cool down and duration are not easy button. The radius is not exceptionally large. It takes skill and timing to be effective, beyond the build investment in DC.

This player is also one of the best in the game. The number of players who can replicate that build and successfully complete that quest solo on r7 probably number fewer than 10 per server. You saw video of a single strong completion. How many runs were done where the player was figuring out the strategy and perfecting the execution and refining the gear set and the attack rotations? You don't see all those failures and learning and all that effort which led to success I've found that Dire Charge can be buggy sometimes and fail to proc properly and just go on cool down without actually doing anything. In R7 solo on a melee, your margin of error is razor thin. It doesn't take much for a strong run to turn into a disaster.

Videos like this should encourage others to invest the time and effort in attempting similar feats, seeing what is possible.

EDIT: I would be fine with dire charge being a "knockdown" effect instead of a "stun" effect for the benefit it offers against a wider variety of mobs. That was mentioned in the OP. I'm not sure about a 3 second duration. That seems too low. Other CC are on a 6 second timer, or longer. To me, that would be the minimum acceptable, especially given a 12 second cool down. I don't think perma-CC should be possible. There should be a gap. But 3 seconds is too low. Especially for a level 29 ED feat that requires 3 capped destinies to access.

[simo0208]

Too busy riding the reincarnation train to really check this out for myself, but when I see Dire Charge as a must feat for every melee class in just about every build discussion thread, it does make me think it could be too OP.

Mental note. Check out Dire Charge next time Lamannia is open.

Or perhaps there is virtually no other competent alternative... there are so few epic feats at 29 that help melee at all that can't be replicated through either a buff (like haste) or simply having appropriate gear (ie, silver, byshek, etc). Further, many of the feats don't even work properly, and neither does dire charge (as the DC is higher than what the tooltip says it should be). It's just that dire charge is one of the few that still actually works at all that it gets chosen. I like it for soloing and for dropping that little bit of CC in reaper when either mobs break or they roll high on saves. Other than that, it's hardly OP.

But Tilomere has said that Sane Asylum is the high skull reaper that his server plays on, so perhaps it outperforms lots of stuff there. On G-land, it's a nice to have but not a must have.

[Amundir]

I thought we were complaining that ranged characters out perform melees in reaper, and melee's needed love.
Now we're complaining that melees with Dire Charge are super performant and casters need love?

Edit: "we" being people on the board. Not me.

[simo0208]

The fact thats its a clear cut best choice means its OP. A symptom of that is it outperforms fort save CC because they have to balance high end fort saves on dire charge usage.



The issue is monk was nerfed due to their high end capabilities, and in the nerf threads, people ONLY want to talk about high reaper and endgame balance, which includes ED stuff and epic feats anyone can have, which is a smoke and mirrors argument. The nerf hurt monks in heroics due to what you just stated - some of the stuff that made them OP in legendary reaper quests didnt come from the class itself and in the case of dire charge is level 29-30 only.

The "better argument" for a nerf for monks in heroics needed to come from examples of how they were OP in heroics. I have yet to see that argument posted, yet they still took that nerf on the chin due to the filibustering of the 12 people at endgame complaining about OP DPS in endgame only, in part due to a weapon that is also endgame only.

So you solve that by being one of the few people filibustering that endgame dire charge is OP and that isn’t EXACTLY THE SAME THING? Let’s nerf an epic issue and hope thqt helps heroics.

The fallacy of “your argument is invalid but when I make the same argument it is valid” is strong here.

I’m guessing people arguing for Dire Charge to be nerfed don’t even play mid to high skull end game and just see something that they can’t do and instead of getting better they insist that everyone must be terrible like them.

[simo0208]

I thought we were complaining that ranged characters out perform melees in reaper, and melee's needed love.
Now we're complaining that melees with Dire Charge are super performant and casters need love?

Edit: "we" being people on the board. Not me.

Lol. I see what you did there.

I think the issue is that they (meaning the people on the board, not me) will complain about all builds which outperform their “perfect” build and demand that any build that does so must be cheating. The problem is that their builds are garbage, so everything outperforma them, whether it is melee, ranged, tanks, casters, or hirelings for that matter.

[Renvar]

I thought we were complaining that ranged characters out perform melees in reaper, and melee's needed love.
Now we're complaining that melees with Dire Charge are super performant and casters need love?

Edit: "we" being people on the board. Not me.

Any video of someone soloing an end game quest on R7+ will result in cries for the nerf bat. No matter what build they used. Ranged, Caster, Melee, whatever. There are some people who don't think R7+ should be soloable.

Even if the quest soloed is one of the easiest end game quests in the game. Grim and Barrett is the Spies in the House of At-Cap Reaper Dailies. There is a reason it is always the quest used when someone wants to show how GG Easy the game is on R10.

[J-mann]

The OP?

Nah the person you had quoted. You must have quoted the wrong person.

[Odysseus2011]

There really isn't a good way to make DPS casters viable at endgame reaper. If you increase their spellpower so that it can keep up in r10 then that build will be grossly overpowered in nonreaper. Fact of the matter is that the damage reductions implemented with reaper killed the DPS caster as a viable endgame build; dire charge had no part in its demise.

[simo0208]

There really isn't a good way to make DPS casters viable at endgame reaper. If you increase their spellpower so that it can keep up in r10 then that build will be grossly overpowered in nonreaper. Fact of the matter is that the damage reductions implemented with reaper killed the DPS caster as a viable endgame build; dire charge had no part in its demise.

There probably is but it’d require a rework of the reaper tree to include massive spellpower gains while in reaper.