Thoughts on Returning

[Arnhelm]

Howdy folks. Been gone a few years. Here's a few thoughts, with only point 1 in a particular order, on what I've found and rediscovered since returning:

1 - Forced grouping is what led to the demise of the original DDO. The lesson from history is apparently being ignored. Yes, I know, PnP is a group game. One simply cannot depend on always finding an appropriate group, or keeping a group together, in DDO, which is not a game one can play weekly, with solid world friends, around a table, while partaking of one's favorite vices.

2 - The new Cannith Crafting system is poor, at best. One can only apply some effects to some pieces, and even those don't always make sense in compatible effects. For example, one cannot put CHA and Haggle on the same piece. Masterful Craftsmanship, one of the primary reasons for crafting imo, is gone from the game. *sadness* I like being able to combine two effects on the same piece without raising the ML. I really like the BtA feature of this new crafting system, and would have loved to see it added to the old system instead of instituting the reduced set of effects now available. Collectables for recipes could be an issue, especially in light of what I'm seeing so far in the Collectables loot table changes. I'll watch that carefully as I play up my chars. Overall, the pluses of the system are outweighed by the current lack of flexibility, and the loss of Masterful Craftsmanship, imo.

3 - I can see and appreciate the reasons for the Reaper difficulty in quests. The addition of the Reaper Enhancement tree makes running at that level, in groups, worthwhile for those who enjoy such play and can always find groups. Refer to point 1 for those who don't like forced grouping.

4 - The addition of crowned mobs to Hard and Elite quests level 5 and above is a bother, to say the least. Refer to point 1.

5 - I like the new system of applying Ability Tomes. Makes much more sense, and provides a better, more balanced application of Ability points, imo. Makes my investment in a +6 Supreme Tome worthwhile for my Monk, my primary return character on Ghallanda. Combined with consideration for Enhancement trees the new application levels help provide an even number of Ability points per stat in character builds.

6 - The latest revamp of Enhancements leaves somewhat to be desired over what was in existence when I left a few years back. Monks are rather limited in design, which nerfs them a bit, imo. I'm still learning on those trees. My new Rogue, which I play as an alt while relearning for my 3rd life existing Rogue, also seems restricted by the current Enhancement system. Enhancements seem to be poorly split across multiple trees, which prevents effective overall use, and at times complete use, of trees for some basic builds, imo. This is potentially influenced by point 1.

7 - Seems to me the Collectables loot table has changed greatly. This is something I'll watch as I progress in levels, as Collectables are now such a necessity for all crafting. ...and I do love crafting in games.

At this time, I'm having fun relearning the game. With some of the bothersome and disconcerting aspects which I keep referring to as point 1, I cannot at this time say I'll be staying, or investing rl $$$. I've used up the old TP I had left in the account by purchasing a +6 Supreme Tome and a Greater Tome of Heroic Learning for my Monk. I'm in a great Guild on Ghallanda, so that helps quite a lot in the enjoyment of playing this game. Still, I figure if I'm playing a game I should be having fun. If this becomes work, to level or craft or otherwise increase my ability to have fun, including having to group with people I don't like, then I see no need to continue playing, and certainly won't be paying.

Again, these are my thoughts on returning, after being back online for a few weeks. I might change my opinion after playing for a while. I certainly won't work hard at this game, because that defeats the purpose of playing a game for me.

'Nuff said.

*casts Flame Protect VI*

[Gabrael]

well, there is a nice crafting planer you can use to plan out gear at http://ccplanner.byethost14.com/gear_master.html

[Ulfo]

For example, one cannot put CHA and Haggle on the same piece.

Pure lie. 8)

Try use craftable trinket for CHA, Haggle and Ins Haggle - it's clearly one same piece.

[Cantor]

1 - Forced grouping is what led to the demise of the original DDO. The lesson from history is apparently being ignored.

DDO is more soloable than ever before. Even in low skull reaper.

2 Masterful Craftsmanship, one of the primary reasons for crafting imo, is gone from the game. *sadness* I like being able to combine two effects on the same piece without raising the ML. I really like the BtA feature of this new crafting system, and would have loved to see it added to the old system instead of instituting the reduced set of effects now available. Collectables for recipes could be an issue, especially in light of what I'm seeing so far in the Collectables loot table changes.

Multiple effects without increasing the ml combined with the new scaling dwarfs the loss of MC. There is one level where the new cc has lower stat then the old with mc (level 9), and a couple levels where skill swaps are 1 lower. Past 10 not only does scaling beat the old, but the addition of 3rd slot and insightful blows it away. What is really lost here is: mobility, greater twilight, low level alacrity.
As far as flexible shards go, from a flavor standpoint some effects make more sense in some slots more than others... I don't have a problem with it even though it causes some shuffling at times. I miss it, but it's ok.
I like that the collectible cost is high, one shouldn't be able to craft power magical items at will at no cost. You can actually craft things and sell them for shards, would that happen if there was no collectible cost?

4 - The addition of crowned mobs to Hard and Elite quests level 5 and above is a bother, to say the least. Refer to point 1.

Oh, you have been gone for a while. The game had become a stupid walk to the end of the quest on the hardest difficulty with nothing ever different and zero chance of ever dying. Champs are good, (they fixed the only really broken thing about them which was multihit spells stacking dots). If you don't ever want to encounter a mob that could possibly kill you then don't play elite. My only complaint would be that fort bypass champs should bypass a # or % of fort, not just ignore it.

6 - The latest revamp of Enhancements leaves somewhat to be desired over what was in existence when I left a few years back. Monks are rather limited in design, which nerfs them a bit, imo. I'm still learning on those trees. My new Rogue, which I play as an alt while relearning for my 3rd life existing Rogue, also seems restricted by the current Enhancement system. Enhancements seem to be poorly split across multiple trees, which prevents effective overall use, and at times complete use, of trees for some basic builds, imo. This is potentially influenced by point 1.

Take another look, the enhancement change is the biggest power creep in the game.

7 - Seems to me the Collectables loot table has changed greatly. This is something I'll watch as I progress in levels, as Collectables are now such a necessity for all crafting. ...and I do love crafting in games.

This change I don't like, the old collectible system had a lot of flavor. The new system is just whatever level of the quest and 4 categories, which is easier to farm but not nearly as interesting or immersive. There is a really good forum post by I think Ellisdee on what to run if you need a specific collectible.

[Kriogen]

...
1 - Forced grouping is what led to the demise of the original DDO. The lesson from history is apparently being ignored. Yes, I know, PnP is a group game. One simply cannot depend on always finding an appropriate group, or keeping a group together, in DDO, which is not a game one can play weekly, with solid world friends, around a table, while partaking of one's favorite vices.

You can solo DDO just fine.

...
2 - The new Cannith Crafting system is poor, at best. One can only apply some effects to some pieces, and even those don't always make sense in compatible effects. For example, one cannot put CHA and Haggle on the same piece. Masterful Craftsmanship, one of the primary reasons for crafting imo, is gone from the game. *sadness* I like being able to combine two effects on the same piece without raising the ML. I really like the BtA feature of this new crafting system, and would have loved to see it added to the old system instead of instituting the reduced set of effects now available. Collectables for recipes could be an issue, especially in light of what I'm seeing so far in the Collectables loot table changes. I'll watch that carefully as I play up my chars. Overall, the pluses of the system are outweighed by the current lack of flexibility, and the loss of Masterful Craftsmanship, imo.
...

Old Masterful reduced ML, right? New crafting gives bigger numbers by default. Bigger numbers for single effect and extra effects do not increase ML. Everything is like Super Masterful.

3 - I can see and appreciate the reasons for the Reaper difficulty in quests. The addition of the Reaper Enhancement tree makes running at that level, in groups, worthwhile for those who enjoy such play and can always find groups. Refer to point 1 for those who don't like forced grouping.
...

Its optional. Plus solid builds can solo Reaper(low numbers) just as easy as below reaper. Not all, but many.

...
4 - The addition of crowned mobs to Hard and Elite quests level 5 and above is a bother, to say the least. Refer to point 1.

I agree. But once you boost your char enough, they are nothing but "extra loot" bag.

6 - The latest revamp of Enhancements leaves somewhat to be desired over what was in existence when I left a few years back. Monks are rather limited in design, which nerfs them a bit, imo. I'm still learning on those trees. My new Rogue, which I play as an alt while relearning for my 3rd life existing Rogue, also seems restricted by the current Enhancement system. Enhancements seem to be poorly split across multiple trees, which prevents effective overall use, and at times complete use, of trees for some basic builds, imo. This is potentially influenced by point 1.
...

I think you are wrong here. Monks are not even close to being weak.

...
7 - Seems to me the Collectables loot table has changed greatly. This is something I'll watch as I progress in levels, as Collectables are now such a necessity for all crafting. ...and I do love crafting in games.

Remember that its BtA. So you can share the same items with alts. While the cost for a single item may be high, its "one and done deal".

[Aelonwy]

Pure lie. 8)

Try use craftable trinket for CHA, Haggle and Ins Haggle - it's clearly one same piece.

He's returning to the game after some time... perhaps we should also inform him there are craftable trinkets from the store if you do not have one from risia turn-ins and shroud Power shards can be disjuncted to make a craftable trinket but they're minimum level 13 (IIRC) no matter what.

[Saekee]

that is an interesting perception on the changes of the last years. I feel like the forum tendency has been to bemoan powercreep and the heavy emphasis on soloing; champs and reaper were two efforts to stem that tide.

As for grouping, I think that is definitely server and time of day. On Cannith, I can easily get people to join and elite run of some regular heroic content. Reaper--less likely; I think a lot of vets are running with guilds or soloing reaper on builds designed to do just that.

[zehnvhex]

The only annoying thing about Cannith Crafting right now tbh is the lack of a mass deconstruct. They told us they would 'look into it' and it's been 3 years now. Still waiting. 8(

[HungarianRhapsody]

that is an interesting perception on the changes of the last years. I feel like the forum tendency has been to bemoan powercreep and the heavy emphasis on soloing; champs and reaper were two efforts to stem that tide.

As for grouping, I think that is definitely server and time of day. On Cannith, I can easily get people to join and elite run of some regular heroic content. Reaper--less likely; I think a lot of vets are running with guilds or soloing reaper on builds designed to do just that.

Forced grouping is bad.

Having enough people on the servers at every level band to make grouping viable when we choose to group is good.

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Pure lie. 8)

Try use craftable trinket for CHA, Haggle and Ins Haggle - it's clearly one same piece.

Everyone should do what I do - my Cha/Haggle item is a helm. Which is extra awesome, because when I die in a quest and then decide to sell my loot while I'm at the 12 Tavern right next to the airship entrance, I get to die a second time. Because I forgot that I have all those bonus HP in my helm when I'm sitting at 1 HP and swap to my haggle hat.

[Chai]

DDO never had forced grouping in quests, save for the few that required multiple players to throw levers. (<1% of quests). I do see the myth still gets perpetuated more than a decade later, but its simply not true.

I suppose raids could be defined as forced grouping, but are you really supposed to be able to solo the demi-god-like-being behind every storyline? IMO the fact that some raids do get soloed, even when its not the majority of the population that can do it, is still questionable. In most MMOs this is not statistically possible.

[CSQ]

I actually think some of these initial points are pretty accurate, with one significant exception:

Forced grouping isn't really a thing in most quests in DDO. I have run entire lives solo (with minor exceptions, like when playing with real life friends or guildies when our levels align). Some quests do require multiple people or specialized builds, but even on higher difficulties it is not impossible to run from level 1 to level 30 without ever interacting with another human being (though epic may shove you back down to normal or hard even if you can solo heroic Reaper).

I also disagree with the monks being limited thing, as they're one of the few classes that can do a bunch of things relatively well, but I also have a soft spot for monks (the U38 nerfs will make me a little sad, but I'll live).

[Arnhelm]

Righto - Been a bit of time, and many hours of playing and crafting. Updating this a tad, as I'm having some second thoughts.

First, on Point 1, the forced grouping is not as bad as I'd initially thought for questing at Heroic levels, including Elite runs. Still there for Reaper level Difficulty, imo.

My thoughts on Cannith Crafting are better solidified. It's a major Cluster. Don't know why this "improved" system was implemented. We had a system that worked, and yielded good gear to people who invested the time, energy, effort, and at times real dollars, into building a high-level crafting character. There was a goodly amount of flexibility about where Ability and Skill points could be added to items, allowing crafters to imbue a variety of items complimentary to named items. Most of that flexibility is gone, and once one has a crafted item set there is at some points little room for flexibility even when excellent named items are acquired.

The Collectables table has been borked beyond my ability to comprehend. I understand the need to sell new Adventure Packs and Expansions. Turning Cannith Crafting Collectables, especially for previously available items, into a selling point is despicable, imo. Worse, the idea of selling Collectable Crates in the DDO Store to get further income is a **** shoot of major proportions. If Collectables are going to be offered in the Store, at least let us buy the specific Collectables we want for our crafting.

btw, what am I supposed to do with all the Shards of Potential I crafted up, long ago, to raise my crafting level? There is no turn-in for those at all. Another slap-in-the-face move, imo.

tl;dr -- Bottom line, imo - Someone decided crafting was "overpowered", and wants it crippled if not removed from the game. A giant slap-in-the-face to everyone who, like me, invested time and effort, and sometimes real dollars, into building a crafting character. Whoever decided this was a good idea overall deserves some serious consideration regarding customer service and retention skills.

'Nuff said for now.

[Cantor]

The Collectables table has been borked beyond my ability to comprehend. I understand the need to sell new Adventure Packs and Expansions. Turning Cannith Crafting Collectables, especially for previously available items, into a selling point is despicable, imo.

btw, what am I supposed to do with all the Shards of Potential I crafted up, long ago, to raise my crafting level? There is no turn-in for those at all. Another slap-in-the-face move, imo.

tl;dr -- Bottom line, imo - Someone decided crafting was "overpowered", and wants it crippled if not removed from the game. A giant slap-in-the-face to everyone who, like me, invested time and effort, and sometimes real dollars, into building a crafting character. Whoever decided this was a good idea overall deserves some serious consideration regarding customer service and retention skills.

Not arguing that collectibles aren't a little borked, but there is no possible way you can argue it's to sell content. It is now 100% level based and not specific to content. The old style was far more specific to content since it was based on mob types.

Old shards could be traded traded in prior to the change over with several months notice, that is just a loss you must accept for not playing the game. It sucks as a returning player, but it wasn't a big finger to people who were playing.

IDK how you can say that the new system is weaker than the old one... So I assume by crippled you mean it takes more resources to make items? I'm ok with that, it should be hard to make items at max stats for the level and 3 effects. As far as time put in, the new system is much much easier and less expensive to level.

edit: if you want to craft stuff every time you level up to fill in one random stat in the one slot you don't have a named item and throw it away when you level up, then no, it's not as friendly as the old. If you plan your gear making items that will be useful over multiple builds (TRs and alts) then it is miles ahead: with all BTA gear (not having to farm end rewards of certain chains for BTA blanks), and way higher stats. It looks really bad when you are starting into it and want lots of gear all at once, but it is very sustainable to make an item every now and then with little-no farming collectibles.

[Deslen]

Someone decided crafting was "overpowered", and wants it crippled if not removed from the game.

I don't know that you've fully explored the new crafting system...

I've crafted gear sets for leveling that blow *most of my old raid gear out of the water o.o; I have a *LOT* of raid gear cluttering up my TR cache.

*Edited "Most of". My crafted sets are around a few pieces of raid gear. I used to wear nothing but raid gear from 9+ when leveling.

[Memnir]

[UurlockYgmeov]

and remember to yell "CROM! Count the bodies!"

[Arnhelm]

Let me get this straight...

Those who want to participate, and actually work, the mimic "event" are prevented from doing so because the highest concentration of chests in the game no longer spawns mimics. Those who don't want to participate, or find the event annoying (including the "joy" of finding an end chest with a mimic 6 levels above one's level) are required to participate even though there is no thought of getting any of the "rewards" for the event.

Did I get that "logic" right?

Edit - I was wrong. All I had to do is go out of my way to get sprayed with mimic repellent in the Hall of Heroes. Better than damned mimics as "rewards" in my chests.

[Uska]

Loss of grouping is why I quit playing almost 2years ago there are plenty of solo gsme s out there ddo was best before hirelings and nerfing of the game. I just come to four s now and then I dont see myself coming back to play they ruined long ago what I loved and added many things I hate DRAGONBORING CHEESE and hirelings being the main. If you like solo it’s more so than ever before.

[bracelet]

Righto - Been a bit of time, and many hours of playing and crafting. Updating this a tad, as I'm having some second thoughts.

First, on Point 1, the forced grouping is not as bad as I'd initially thought for questing at Heroic levels, including Elite runs. Still there for Reaper level Difficulty, imo.

My thoughts on Cannith Crafting are better solidified. It's a major Cluster. Don't know why this "improved" system was implemented. We had a system that worked, and yielded good gear to people who invested the time, energy, effort, and at times real dollars, into building a high-level crafting character. There was a goodly amount of flexibility about where Ability and Skill points could be added to items, allowing crafters to imbue a variety of items complimentary to named items. Most of that flexibility is gone, and once one has a crafted item set there is at some points little room for flexibility even when excellent named items are acquired.

The Collectables table has been borked beyond my ability to comprehend. I understand the need to sell new Adventure Packs and Expansions. Turning Cannith Crafting Collectables, especially for previously available items, into a selling point is despicable, imo. Worse, the idea of selling Collectable Crates in the DDO Store to get further income is a **** shoot of major proportions. If Collectables are going to be offered in the Store, at least let us buy the specific Collectables we want for our crafting.

btw, what am I supposed to do with all the Shards of Potential I crafted up, long ago, to raise my crafting level? There is no turn-in for those at all. Another slap-in-the-face move, imo.

tl;dr -- Bottom line, imo - Someone decided crafting was "overpowered", and wants it crippled if not removed from the game. A giant slap-in-the-face to everyone who, like me, invested time and effort, and sometimes real dollars, into building a crafting character. Whoever decided this was a good idea overall deserves some serious consideration regarding customer service and retention skills.

'Nuff said for now.

I have a crafter that was / is max level in both old Cannith and new Cannith crafting. There are two things that are worse in the new system than the old:
1) lack of flexibility -in particular with rings, but generally with all items, and
2) ingredients -people that have not been clicking collectibles forever are at a serious disadvantage.

Looking past those things though, the new system is phenomenally better than the old one. It is much easier to level. It scales far, far better with ML. You can put three effects on items at ML 10 and above, and, as others have pointed out, everything is powered almost at the peak end of what you can find in random loot (yes, you can find better, but it is incredibly rare to do so, and basically never in a combination that one would voluntarily make).

New CC does not let you create some combinations that exist on random loot, like speed and feather fall on boots, or a useful third effect on a caster weapon. But neither did old CC.

I wouldn't ever want to go back to the old CC. I think many of us are forgetting how incredibly painful that was.