Khopesh Proficiency needs to be updated

[glennson]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

suggested by Cleanincubus:

Bonus to trip DC

suggested by Daine:

Bludgeon damage type
Parry AC bonus

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

[Saekee]

I am delighted that the khopesh has had its status decreased.

[Tom116]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still be true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat similar to shuriken expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

I agree with Saekee, now it's an option rather than the only choice that makes sense dps-wise.

Shurikens do NOT need a buff lol. If you don't want to spend the feat to make them uber, then don't. Or, be a drow and get it free while buffing the dex you want.

[Odysseus2011]

Shurikens do NOT need a buff lol. If you don't want to spend the feat to make them uber, then don't. Or, be a drow and get it free while buffing the dex you want.

You misread and misinterpreted what he said.

[AbyssalMage]

Ahh the Khopesh.

long has it been considered as one of the best one handed weapons. This is still true from the basic ratio perspective.

With the advent of a variety of changes in the game it has increasingly become less and less viable to spend a feat to gain proficiency.
There have been only a few decent named khopeshes. None of them were good enough to combat the rise of other weaponry.

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed aside the critical potential of a dagger can now surpass the potential for a khopesh. I find this slightly rediculous as the dagger is a simple weapon.

A variety of other single handed weapons have had there potential critical and ranges enhanced via swashbuckling.

Moreover, other exotic weapons have within the proficiency feat an additional benefit such as the vorpal knockdown of the great crossbow or the glancing blows of the dwarven axe and bastard sword.

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

Additionally, or alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I would love to hear some other ideas to make khopeshing more fun and viable.

Not sure why you are having this knee-jerk reaction. Khopesh has been the best weapon on-and-off for awhile now. Give it time and it will be king once again. Like you pointed out in your rant, the named Khopesh's are "lack luster" currently. How long do you think that will last before forumites demand more Power Creep? Oh wait, you just demanded it.

[OfElectricMen]

Hi!

No.

Thanks!

[Ballrus]

With the release of the Vistani Tree the dagger can now be superior to the khopesh. Increases in attack speed...

It's bugged. There's no increase in attack speed atm.

[Memnir]

[glmfw1]

Taking all these changes into consideration I believe it would be appropriate to add an effect to khopesh proficiency.

Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

I'd say no to this one. Khopesh's are awkward to wield, thus require extra training, hence the need for a proficiency to wield it. The weapon at the outset is a better weapon, and that's the benefit that you get.

alternatively It would be nice to have a follow up feat (similar to shuriken expertise), call it khopesh expertise.

Some ideas for this are:

Stacking attack speed.
Melee power.
+1(W).

I'd say a definite yes to this suggestion, and have a similar Expertise feat for every exotic weapon, with varying benefits based on the nature of the weapon. Investment in something should pay off, and having an extra feat to get specific benefits for something you have already paid for makes sense. Something else would need to be sacrificed in a build plan in order to take this feat so, as long as the benefits are well planned, there's no reason not to do this.
Given the weight of the weapon, extra damage (extra melee power, potentially scaled based on STR) on a Khopesh would make sense.
Bastard Sword, at half the weight of the Khopesh could potentially get an increase in attack speed or a chance for doublestrike (scaled relative to Str).

[Amundir]

Why just for the exotic weapons? Why not all weapons? Exotic weapons are only "exotic" because they are not commonly taught in the region's martial training.

[glmfw1]

Why just for the exotic weapons? Why not all weapons? Exotic weapons are only "exotic" because they are not commonly taught in the region's martial training.

Because in game terms, no-one needs to use a feat to just be able to use {insert name of non-exotic weapon}. A player who wants the specific benefit of {exotic weapon} expertise would have had to sacrifice 2 feats from another line of progression. In terms of game balance, it's easier to implement.

Conceptually, I don't have an issue with expertise for every single weapon, but it's a lot of work to implement a feat for every weapon that provides a noticeable benefit that is different from what the other specialisation/focus/improved crit etc options allow for.

You could have a set of Martial Weapon Expertise proficiencies that provide benefits not currently provided e.g. Rapier Counts as Light in Offhand plus has extra % chance for doublestrike (scaled with Str or Dex (if you have weapon finesse)) as an alternative to Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. Whereas with Exotic, an obvious pre-req would be proficiency in the weapon, may need to add minimum levels or BAB for martial weapons.

Simple Weapon Expertise proficiencies could also be added. The problem comes in working out how to balance things properly. In theory, it should be easier to master a simple weapon at than a martial weapon, but if the benefits are available at a lower level, do you make them lesser benefits?

[Amundir]

I don't think any of this is necessary, but I'll keep poking at it.

What about Dwarven Waraxes? They are exotic to everyone, except for dwarfs in a militant class as soon as they reach BAB of 1. What about dwarves? If I'm not a dwarf I could get the awesome feat bonus, but if I'm a dwarf who knows how to use it because it is taught commonly in my region, I can't get it? How would that make sense? If anything, a race that commonly learns how to wield a weapon would have a higher chance at reaching an "expertise" in that weapon.

[Tom116]

You misread and misinterpreted what he said.

Yes I did lol. Glad to see people are not pushing for a Shuri buff

A Khopesh Expertise feat though? Sounds a lot like [Weapon Type] Specialization line that fighters get. Doesn't have the unique effects, but doing more damage by focusing on a specific weapon.

[Cleanincubus]

...
Some of my Ideas are:

1d8 Bleeding damage that perhaps stacks to 5d8.
10% Stacking Fortification bypass.
2% on hit slow that stacks to 10%.

Can't really agree with all of this. But I'd like to see some real world bonuses added to it. The curve of the sword with a slight hook at the top back end (IRL), is meant for hooking shields to force an opening for another slice, as well as to hook a leg to trip an opponent.

Not sure how the shield part could be worked in, but adding a bonus to Trip (and an extra one for Improved Trip) would be a cool idea, IMO.

[glmfw1]

I don't think any of this is necessary, but I'll keep poking at it.

What about Dwarven Waraxes? They are exotic to everyone, except for dwarfs in a militant class as soon as they reach BAB of 1. What about dwarves? If I'm not a dwarf I could get the awesome feat bonus, but if I'm a dwarf who knows how to use it because it is taught commonly in my region, I can't get it? How would that make sense? If anything, a race that commonly learns how to wield a weapon would have a higher chance at reaching an "expertise" in that weapon.

Each Big Proficiency is split up into lots of little proficiencies. Martial Proficiency contains Proficiency: Longsword, Proficiency: Rapier etc

Dwarves get:
"Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven axe as a martial weapon, i.e. a character only needs to be proficient with martial weapons to gain Dwarven axe proficiency (rather than treat it as an exotic weapon, which they are for all other races)."
So a dwarf proficient in Martial Weapons would have Proficiency: DWA, which, if they existed, would be the prerequisite for Exotic Expertise: DWA.
Assuming the game didn't allow the 2 feats to be picked at the same time, and feat availability was the only limiting factor, dwarves should still fulfill the prerequisites sooner than other races.

If benefits were added to Exotic Weapon Proficiency: DWA (the bit of the OPs post I didn't agree with), they would also get added to IfYouAreADwarfIt'sAMartial Weapon Proficiency: DWA, as it's the same ability.

[glennson]

Can't really agree with all of this. But I'd like to see some real world bonuses added to it. The curve of the sword with a slight hook at the top back end (IRL), is meant for hooking shields to force an opening for another slice, as well as to hook a leg to trip an opponent.

Not sure how the shield part could be worked in, but adding a bonus to Trip (and an extra one for Improved Trip) would be a cool idea, IMO.

I like your insight, a stacking bonus to trip would be viable.

As for your point about shields in line with your combat ability bonus perhaps an improvement to sunder.

Thanks Cleanincubus

[Gabrael]

meh, the only thing I would change, is maybe make it 1d10 (liek the B-sword), but then again that might make TWF a bit overpowered, and annoying to implement and/or anger old Khopesh wielder that would then need to farm stuff.
Also for consistency sake I would not add any specific buff unique to khopeshes,

[Chai]

No change really needed. You are spending a feat to make a long sword have a x3 crit multi.

Khopesh x3 multi was one of the biggest balance mistakes in the game at one point, where they had to put the eSOS into the game just to give THF a chance to stay in the same league.

[glennson]

No change really needed. You are spending a feat to make a long sword have a x3 crit multi.

Khopesh x3 multi was one of the biggest balance mistakes in the game at one point, where they had to put the eSOS into the game just to give THF a chance to stay in the same league.

So your saying that since it used to be really good like 8 years ago, back before the great number of changes took place including a complete enhancement overhaul the inclusion of 10 more levels and epic destinies, it doesn't deserve to be maintained at all?

Now that there are great axes with x4 multipliers and quarterstaves with x3 multipliers it seems rediculous to me that this weapon which used to have fame for being fantastically overpowered is now has less potential than almost every other weapon type. There is no Khopesh with a x4 multiplier or an increase from 1d8[w] and in fact the only khopesh with an expanded crit range is the Drow weapons master.

I have a hard time thinking of a weapon type that doesn't have a character build that can make it highly effective.

There is no class or race with which khopesh recieves any special effect bonus or free proficiency. Meanwhile there are other exotic weapons that receive a large amount of these types boosts, mostly great Xbows and Shuriken. Those two are less easily comparable with khopesh. So dwarven axe and bastard sword, which are both hand and a half weapons, automatically increasing the base damage, they also can both generate glancing blows. Additionally there are a few unique dwarven axes and bastard swords which have specialized ratios, the spinal tap for example has 19-20/x3, so why should anyone want to use khopesh when they can have a 1d10 bastard sword with the same crit profile that also does glancing blows.

Longswords specifically have significantly better options, the Fellblade from Defiler of the just outshines every khopesh and then there are several which do 1d10 often with an expanded crit range. While I understand that these are hard to get items, the point remains it costs a feat for no real gain when using khopesh. Even for a first lifer obtaining an Oathblade is quite easy, while an Epic Choasblade could take months of running Zawabi's.

Khopesh does well in mid level heroics but as soon as destinies are included they quickly become laughable. As mentioned the eSoS well outdoes the Epic Choasblade and while the Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water has some nice crowd controlling effects it doesn't maintain its potency past level 23.

So what does a diehard khopesh fan get. No special build. Extra requirements to use on par weaponry, such as the extra action point needed to use khopesh in a kensai build. Extremely rare unique weapons that offer no special ratio. Lastly, people who think your exploiting some kinda awesome dream weapon.

[janave]

As a first step, please include the proficiency feat to Kensei Exotic Weapon Mastery, it lacks good sense right now.

Mastery > Proficiency

Not very cool to have ton of feats just so we waste them on super basic stuff, that other classes get automatically or for cheap APs. A "bonus feat" is bonus, if we get to use them on bonuses.

New Epic Feats:

***Epic Weapon Focus: {type}***
Req: Level 15 Fighter
+4 attack, +3% attack speed, 3% dodge bypass,

***Epic Weapon Specialization {type}***
Req: Level 15 Fighter
+4 damage, +1 Crit Multiplier on 19-20

Other limitations are not needed as Fighters also loose their bonus feat progression after 20.


One of the new Druid, or Divine trees could implement Khopesh bonuses too, in T4-T5 for Multi class friendliness.