My Opinion on Melee in DDO

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I like melee combat, I have never made a character that performed to my desires for melee.

Mostly this is due to the extreme difficulty in getting adequate defense for challenging fights.
While I have seen other players pull this off, I have never had much success.

The one exception was my Fighter life, where I took all of the heavy armor feats I could get. And used action point primarily for defensive options.
This did result in a fairly durable melee character, but the DPS was horrible.

One other slight success has been with characters that can cast displacement and self heal.

However, even the totally defensive Fighter and the Displacement toons, have not been up to the new Legendary Elite super 1.5K damage per every minor hit...that has become the Devs' definition of "challenge" in this game.

Then there is the new agro system. Basically guaranteeing that one will be surrounded very quickly...

In short...
I have not been able to build and enjoy a melee (only) toon.


Ok.. all of that said.
Then there is my observation of other players and melee.

People love melee.
But they love high DPS melee. and generally sacrifice defense for offense. Or have the same troubles I do of building both defense and offense into one toon.... or like me, just cannot get the gear.. or whatever.
The result is a whole lot of players that play melee toons that get beat up all of the time.

Then there is the numerous complaints from melee players.
Champions.
Can't solo such and such fight.
Hjeal Me!

Generally, melees lovers build melee only toons and are very, very needy. (and thus complain a lot)


Ok.. then there is my opinion about what melee should be.

Well, actually, I cannot only talk about melee here.

You see, I think Dungeons and Dragons should provide a large variety of challenges, and players should need to use a large variety of tactics to overcome those challenges.

Which is the opposite to how the game seems to be set up, and especially the opposite of convention character building mindset of DDO players.

The game and mindset seem to encourage specialization instead of versatility.
In fact, the power creep we have has just about made any other build choice but specializing in one thing to max out, .... almost useless.

Ya see, I would prefer a game where Fighters and Barbarians (and everyone actually) carried melee and ranged weapons... and felt useful when using either one.

To me.. meleeing a huge pit fiend with a strength far greater than any mere Human... complete with deadly poison and disease bearing claws...
is... stupid!
Seems to me that any sensible adventurer would shoot at this guy with ranged weapons rather than charge in and get beat up and killed by such a fearsome beast.

Yet... in DDO... anyone specced for melee (or anyone not specced for ranged anyway) Is basically useless with a ranged weapon.

Plus... we just want to be super melee men heroes anyway...



But... how do we have a game. That challenges players.
But allows all players to melee something.. and not die in one hit.. or last long enough to make meleeing a fun experience.

How do we have both a challenge and allow people to have fun with melee combat.


Personally, I would also like a system that allows every player to use any weapons they are proficient with, and not feel like a super gimp.. just because they didn't devote other feats and action points to using said weapon...


Armor up helped a lot.
But... then came Legendary Elite.....

Bringing friends certainly helps.
Hirelings help.
Some players just accept that they can use ranged for certain fights, even though they are specced for melee. (some o fus, just love Rangers for reasons such as this)
(some just play Warlocks.... )


Still.. I see a problem.
With no clear solution.

My current preference would be less damaging monsters. One hit dying is not fun.
But how to make monsters challenging if they do less damage?

Most obvious to me is other dangerous effects.
But the most deadly of those have some similar issues. Symbol of stunning for example also can make soloing on a melee not much fun.
Although, I actually am against forgoing challenge to support solo melees.... We should be encouraging grouping anyway.
I have seen much more use of CC recently... seems groups and working together are making a comeback.

So... is melee even a problem right now?
(I still think it is)

[nokowi]

The game and mindset seem to encourage specialization instead of versatility.

this

Melee would not be a problem if they contributed something different and unique.

Remember when melee used tendon slice in Shroud? This is an example of offering something different and beneficial when combined with ranged and casters.

Dire Charge for everyone is a perfect example of design gone wrong.

[AzB]

I have seen a few folks with durable enough melee for reaper. But like you said, their dps sucked. My melee toon was a bard, and the dps was slightly better, but the defenses were nearly non existent. EE is no problem because displace works and he could power heal through most fights. But in reaper, most champs bypass displacement and dodge, and self healing is nerfed. He was of very little use. He tr'ed into a caster, and he has more dps, and more defenses while not having to stand in the bad guys hit box to deliver the damage.

Unfortunately, we need smart chalenge and we got brain dead nerfs to the more useful defenses and the bad guys get more dps and hps. Not inteligent, imaginative design at all.

And to add insult to injury, casters and ranged suffer far less in both defensive and offensive nerfs while staying out of the reach of most of the damage.

Melee is not in a good place. Rangers, bards, and rogues are even worse off than dedicated fighters and paladins.

[Phoenicis]

Unfortunately, we need smart chalenge and we got brain dead nerfs to the more useful defenses and the bad guys get more dps and hps. Not inteligent, imaginative design at all.

Lets assume, for just a moment, that the devs are not stupid, and are aware of the fact that people want more challenge.

What options do they have, given the limits on the AI?

Big bags of HP that hit like trucks. OK, this we got.

Mobs that trip, improve trip, use the CC capabilities at their disposal. We have this too.

Mobs that use ranged weapons or magic when players stay out of their reach. Ummm, yeah. Got that.

Anything I've missed?

I keep seeing people say 'they need to be creative!' but stop there. Give them ideas to work from.

Do I have any ideas? One or two, but I'm sure players would hate when mobs matched, or exceeded, their PRR, MRR, Dam & hit mods (because then they may not be big bags of HP, but you wouldn't do much more than scratch them, and good luck if they had our all or nothing stacking defenses). That's why I'm on this end playing games and not that end designing them.

[MLKKK]

Create challenge is a problem because Turbine/SSg "sold" powercreep to everybody and didn't fix op builds.

So it's their problem to fix it.

[nokowi]

Rangers, bards, and rogues are even worse off than dedicated fighters and paladins.

I intend to prove you wrong if they fix the agro issues of ignoring player stealth scores.

Stealth is very powerful in a challenging group setting - it's too bad it is broken right now.

[Chai]

Melee is not in a good place. Rangers, bards, and rogues are even worse off than dedicated fighters and paladins.

Bards are great CC for R10.

If stealth/aggro wasnt broken currently, assassins would be more desired.

[KoobTheProud]

The Exploiterr build back in the day was the last time that I felt that it was possible to get the best melee damage and defenses in the same build.

Very high AC and Dodge for the era plus two-weapon fighting and the chain of feats up to Whirlwind Attack made for an excellent build for that day. I was absent from DDO for a couple of years and returned and nobody was using it any more. I'm guessing Armor Up is what invalidated it but I'm not sure that it's not out there waiting to be rediscovered at this point.

There were robe and light armor versions with the robes getting full dex bonus on very high dex scores and the light armor version capped at a high number.

It's possible that it just got whacked by Epic Destinies, with too many cool things that it alone provided in the pre-MotU game now being available too a wide range of builds.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The Exploiterr build back in the day was the last time that I felt that it was possible to get the best melee damage and defenses in the same build.

Very high AC and Dodge for the era plus two-weapon fighting and the chain of feats up to Whirlwind Attack made for an excellent build for that day. I was absent from DDO for a couple of years and returned and nobody was using it any more. I'm guessing Armor Up is what invalidated it but I'm not sure that it's not out there waiting to be rediscovered at this point.

There were robe and light armor versions with the robes getting full dex bonus on very high dex scores and the light armor version capped at a high number.

It's possible that it just got whacked by Epic Destinies, with too many cool things that it alone provided in the pre-MotU game now being available too a wide range of builds.

We do have some defensive options, like high dodge, permanent Blur, etc.
But when we do get hit it is so massive that suddenly you are dead!

Not fun IMO.

I want to see some option that provides challenge, yet allows most players to participate in melee fights without fear of almost instant death.
There has to be some way to balance this....

I would never ask for less challenge.
I'm by far a ranged fan more than a melee one.
But I also think meleeing monsters is a lot of fun....
...if you can survive...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I am ok with some monsters being able to one shot players.
But there are too many that do super duper damage per hit right now IMO.

[Borror0]

I keep seeing people say 'they need to be creative!' but stop there. Give them ideas to work from.

As far as I'm aware, the problems with melee in Reaper are two fold.

First, there's little defensive counterplay for melee players. When a bad roll can result in the death of a player with reasonable defenses, there's a problem. Praying for good rolls isn't a skill, and as such there's little room for players to believe they can simply play better. If the developers want to increase the damage caused by monsters, then they should opt for smaller standard derivations hits. It's okay for there to be critical hits, but they shouldn't one-shot non-squishy characters with reasonable defensive scores. Increasing the speed of attacks or comparable averages with lower damage spikes would be a more pleasant experience. It would allow for counterplay, and time for healer to heal rather than rez.

Secondly, limit the effectiveness of kiting and high uptime. A major advantage that casters and rangers have over melee power is that they can kite and damage from afar, in much greater safety. Generally, that should be compensated with lower damage. That's part of why ranged damage attack speed increase so dramatically when standing still. If monsters can get to squishy targets more easily, it increases the value of meat shields to soak up the damage.

Now, that's based on my limited, heroic Reaper experience so take it with a grain of salt.

The important feedback for developers is this: a good challenge must come with good counterplay, for a balanced party. Being one-shotted is perfectly fine is the lesson is "don't do that, dummy." Automatic death is an important and powerful message. When you automatically die in melee through no fault of ours, that's a problem. Once the counterplay is in place, it's a matter of balancing the effectiveness each playstyles solutions to the challenge so they are no major gaps in effectiveness (e.g., kiting > melee).

[Enoach]

There use to be a time when melee builds did more then DPS and more then just defense.

During that time feats/abilities like SAP, Trip (and improved), Sunder and Stun were seen as useful (and they were). Part of the issue is that everyone thinks their DPS needs to be 11 in order be adequate.

SAP was probably one of the first feats I saw used less and less among the melee fighters. I actually attribute this to two things;

1) If mob was hit it broke and with more weapons doing AoE damage as well as Casters favoring AoE damage to get more out of their SP usage its ability to reduce incoming damage diminished
2) It took away a feat for personal DPS, even though it benefited every rogue type (splash) in the party via Sneak Attack damage

Sunder's nail in the coffin was the hit mechanic that now added in glancing blows. Its ability to reduce AC was no longer as beneficial because more characters with lower "to-hit" scores could hit without it. Sunder was a way to improve the overall Party DPS. This also suffered the not being a personal DPS booster issue.

Trip is used less, but that is because it is easier to complain about all the mobs hitting you even if you have the ability to stop one. Combine this with Stun and you now have two not hitting you (that is two per melee). This suffered because most don't think of Melee as sources of Crowd Control.

Personally, I think many melee need to take the time to re-examine the Tactical feats they left behind.

[Powerhungry]

increased effectiveness vs ranged?
binding chains
vortex (D3 ability)

[krimsonrane]

Melee is not in a good place. Rangers, bards, and rogues are even worse off than dedicated fighters and paladins.

this.

I've lost just about all desire to play. Been using rogues and roguish characters for a decade. **** near everything I kept was for rogues. I was literally the 1st person on my server Orien to gain 3 rogue past lives.
This last life I'd (IMO) finally perfected 2 builds and one in the works that I really enjoyed playing despite the anti/assassin stealth toon trends I'd been seeing already. One a full mech rogue with the rarest of rare gear combos and another ranger rogue arti mix that was a monster in 1 shot ranged combat and able to stealth past anything that wasn't a spider or slime in any EE quest or raid. I would solo stealth the entire quest of Good Intentions and only kill the boss without waking a single monster before that. That took a lot of the right stuff. A lot of investment in time and effort. I'd two manned EE tempest Spine regularly with a friends well made pali and just using stealth and tactics. He'd tank in a web trap and I would pick them off quickly. Using stealth and noisemakers we would herd the monsters and choose when and where we fought. We used agro management and location as tools. It was a patient but fun way to play. We did not sit around sniping one at a time.

Since u34 that is no longer the case. Stealth is pretty much useless now. It doesn't matter how high your skill score is, if you are with someone and they get spotted you are spotted. Automatically. They know exactly where you are.
If a slime or spider sees you everything near it sees you. Automatically. Then there is the new bluff mechanics. As a melee that is not built for toe to toe combat using bluff would save you some damage. Assassins had deception gear/bluff as a necessary damage mitigating requirement. Now you might as well be a fighter. The mitigation wasn't the only bonus. Sneak attack came into play and it was kinda cool to see the monster flip around and hack at someone else like you had just made him think the scream of "Arm the NUKE!" actually came from the guy behind him. I have an assassin half TRd at the moment. I dread leveling him anymore. I just can't envision an end game build where i'd be personally satisfied with its performance. And no I don't want to play a warlock. As things for rogues and assassins in particular grew worse over the last couple of years I've TR'd and tried other builds. Good stuff no doubt but not what I like.

I still play rarely just to join friends and I adapt out of necessity. I don't think this mini lament nor any of the niche player base's constant posts about the issue can expect a more rogue friendly stance in coming updates.

So... meh. it is what it is.

Melee is not in a good place. Rangers, bards, and rogues are even worse off than dedicated fighters and paladins.

[changelingamuck]

One Solution: Make all displacement clickies exclusive. Offer an easier access GS deconstruction option to mitigate foot-stomping and tears.

Increase the effectiveness of PRR and MRR.

The problem with melee damage mitigation is that the game's design is that non-melee classes are supposed to mitigate damage with damage avoidance mechanics and/or self-healing. And the game is designed for melee characters to primarily mitigate damage with damage absorption mechanics.

The problem is all melees can also get unlimited 50% concealment through the ridiculous fact that displacement clickies are unlimited. And it's too easy for arcanes to avoid arcane spell failure and gear up in heavier armors.

How are they supposed to balance the damage output of enemies in a game-balance environment like this where every character can get the same defenses regardless of whether or not they're front-line characters?

This is what happens when people get their wishes to be able to do everything equally well and when a game studio relies too often on cutting-and-pasting abilities/bonuses from one class into another class because it takes less time than coding something brand-new. Most people don't think about the long-term damage of power creep and class homogenization because whenever anything about the game is announced their first and overriding thought is "Will this make my own character(s) stronger? Yes? Then it's good. Cool update, devs. No? Then it's bad. Time to fight tooth-and-nail and grab the pitchfork/torches memes." And there's no more complexity to their thought processes than that.

Reaper mode is actually a backdoor way of turning back the clock on the power creep and class homogenization without coming out and overtly saying that the path of power creep and class homogenization has done damage to the game (which would suggest that mass-nerfing should be done despite foot-stomping, and tears). Unfortunately, Reaper can't account for the fact that every character can get practically the same defenses at similar or the same levels of effectiveness. You have to limit access to some forms of defense or alter the way that they work in order to fix game balance issues like that.

Frontline and catch-me-if-you-can characters cannot have similar types/levels of defense and self-healing and still have the game's combat be balanced. It's not possible. But guess how happy the more sensitive melee players are going to be if you take away their half-dozen displacement clickies though. Guess how happy the more sensitive arcanes are going to be when you make it much harder for them to get high PRR/MRR.

Eventually, they'll probably just have to invent yet another wholly new damage mitigation stat and weave it in somehow making the game's design even more convoluted. They have to 'tack-on' extra stuff instead of fixing the actual problems like tacking on reaper mode instead of fixing the existing difficulties, like adding champions instead of sufficiently nerfing the many over-powered builds, etc. Otherwise, short-sighted, self-centered players feel personally wounded when their characters are 'diminished'. Then the 'tacked-on' indirect fixes are packaged as "new, exciting game additions" and we live with how clunky the solutions are. Y'know, like how "legendary quests" aren't actually a *cool, new thing, kids!*. But they're actually a tacked-on indirect fix for cheaters having duped bypasses and an indirect fix for the exceedingly poor design of the "Mortal Fear" weapon effect that people came on these forums and actually raged against nerfing en masse with straight faces, despite it being hands-down the single-most poorly designed and over-powered weapon effect in the history of this game (and not subtly. like very, very obviously and clearly so. and the supposed solution still allows that grossly OP effect to function just like it always did in most of the game's content so as to avoid overly offending the 'My Character's Big Numbers 1st' crowd).

Your actual problem here calls for targeted nerfing and re-balancing of PRR/MRR. The playerbase won't accept that though. Your only option is coming up with a tacked-on new addition to our slew of existing damage mitigation stats. The words durability, hardness, physical/magical resistance, protection, sanctuary armor class, sheltering, etc. are all taken. I'll suggest ACRR--Armor Class Resistance Rating.

[TL;DR read another post, I'm not summarizing it.]

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Maybe less monster damage on non-critical hits?

But make critical hits high enough to kill most players.

[sephiroth1084]

Sunder's nail in the coffin was the hit mechanic that now added in glancing blows. Its ability to reduce AC was no longer as beneficial because more characters with lower "to-hit" scores could hit without it. Sunder was a way to improve the overall Party DPS. This also suffered the not being a personal DPS booster issue.

Trip is used less, but that is because it is easier to complain about all the mobs hitting you even if you have the ability to stop one. Combine this with Stun and you now have two not hitting you (that is two per melee). This suffered because most don't think of Melee as sources of Crowd Control.

Personally, I think many melee need to take the time to re-examine the Tactical feats they left behind.

Improved Sunder is definitely worthwhile, now that a lot of monsters have significant fortification and AC. It's just that fitting it in can be rough. Plus, it can help casters land their spells. I used to carry Improved Sunder on both my monk and my barbarian/fighter, but when I rebuilt them the former lost Power Attack (and therefore IS), and the latter focused feats differently, but may pick the feat back up. My other characters don't have it because they don't have the feat space. Besides, Improved Sunder doesn't have any defensive benefits.

As for Trip, the cooldown and duration on the auto-granted feat are poor, there are fewer things boosting trip DCs, and it doesn't increase DPS (as compared with Stunning Blow). Improved Trip is pretty good, but it requires Combat Expertise, which almost no one wants (this is a problem endemic to D&D 3.x, not unique to DDO).

You didn't mention it, but one additional issue is that Stunning Blow has too long a cooldown for a single-target melee-only ability. I'm sure it was originally designed with the idea that a free, reusable ability needs to be limited somehow, but the game has changed a lot, and now it's simply behind the curve.

[AzB]

I intend to prove you wrong if they fix the agro issues of ignoring player stealth scores.

Stealth is very powerful in a challenging group setting - it's too bad it is broken right now.

I hope aggro is fixed, but that still does very little for other specialized melees.

[Qhualor]

Improved Sunder is definitely worthwhile, now that a lot of monsters have significant fortification and AC. It's just that fitting it in can be rough. Plus, it can help casters land their spells. I used to carry Improved Sunder on both my monk and my barbarian/fighter, but when I rebuilt them the former lost Power Attack (and therefore IS), and the latter focused feats differently, but may pick the feat back up. My other characters don't have it because they don't have the feat space. Besides, Improved Sunder doesn't have any defensive benefits.

As for Trip, the cooldown and duration on the auto-granted feat are poor, there are fewer things boosting trip DCs, and it doesn't increase DPS (as compared with Stunning Blow). Improved Trip is pretty good, but it requires Combat Expertise, which almost no one wants (this is a problem endemic to D&D 3.x, not unique to DDO).

You didn't mention it, but one additional issue is that Stunning Blow has too long a cooldown for a single-target melee-only ability. I'm sure it was originally designed with the idea that a free, reusable ability needs to be limited somehow, but the game has changed a lot, and now it's simply behind the curve.

I cant see myself using a feat slot for Improved Sunder on any build, even on my pure fighter. there is still a fortitude save the mobs need to make and in epic levels they seem to go pretty high in the fairly new to recent content. plus you can bypass 10% fortification and more with gear, EDs and enhancements on certain builds. the DC I think needs work, but I'm not going to suggest that.

I use trip all the time on my fighter. I may consider taking Improved Trip on my Kensei, but my Vanguard has so much stunning CC I don't bother with him. most times trip works really good for him, but its weird that my strength barb cant get it to work more reliably. I disagree that it doesn't increase dps. a tripped mob doesn't attack and that's the time you go balls to the wall on it or move on and get some other more dangerous mob.

the biggest reasons why single target CC has lost some of its appeal is because quests are designed with packs of mobs around every corner and kill packs of mobs before advancing and also we have gotten used to rounding up mobs for efficiency. single target CC was awesome in its day and its still mostly good today, especially with a properly built toon with investment into it, but the problem today is in the quest design and how players adapted to those designs and power creep allowing us to survive a lot easier without being tactfully smart.

[AzB]

Bards are great CC for R10.

Melee bards tend not to have great cc capbility other than fascinate. Fascinate has it's own problems. Between the broken aggro making it dangerous to land effectively and rampant party aoe, it tends to be great for stealth soloing and less than ideal for groups.

Yes, a caster bard is still viable because he can stand out of harm's way. This is my point.

Bards are squishy and to help them with defense, they get self healing and displacement. And most good players max out dodge. These are all nerfed to uselessness in high level reaper. Other melee toons have much more in the way of defense.

My ex bard was a terrific toon that I've spent years perfecting. He can solo most anything le, and in reaper 1-4 he can contribute nicely. Go higher and he is a spectator tossing a few heals and buffing. I don't particularly find that fun.

That's why he's now a caster. Much more solid cc, much more dps, the same or better defenses and he can stand out of the line of fire. He can still heal and buff if needed, but as a caster he's a much more dimensional character to play.

What should be done is remove self healing from classes that were never meant to heal. Wizards, fighter, etc. Clerics, bards, paladins, and rangers should not have thier self healing nerfed. It's part of their class ability.

I saw a caster the other day facerolling slavers on r4. He had 4000 hp and walked around completely oblivious to the devastating traps as well as the mobs. The traps had no effect on him and the mobs melted away quickly. There was no cc, no strategy, no concern for death.