Buffer, semitank, melee cleric/paladin

[Gualdrippa]

Hello everybody,
I have a cleric 18/ paladin 2 character. I was mainly oriented to heal and light, but I started to dislike the spell points dependence of this build.

So I started to rearrange my character to create a different cleric.

My general idea is to create a build oriented to buff allies through cleric spells and auras, but at the same time I'm trying to make the character tankier in order to improve survivability and also help a bit damaging enemies.

This is what i get... (i'm not interested in min-max my character, but just have fun...)

cleric 18 Paladin 2
sword and shield

feat: shield mastery, Improved shield Mastery, quicken, extended (for buff), max healing, maximize, empower, thoughness

enhancements: mainly warpriest, with a splash in sacred defender, radiant servant and vanguard
epic destiny: unyielding sentinel or divine crusade depending on if I want to focus more on dps or tank.

my idea is:
I want to use my cleric to buff my allies before the battle (improved aura (CA), aid, resist energy, circle against evil, magic resistance, prayer, recitacion and haste), buff myself (divine power, divine favor) and then go fighting trying to gain the attention of mob and in occasion heal a little bit (heal, cure wounds, positive energy burst but NOT positive energy aura, divine healing for HoT...)

any idea about a build like this? would it be better as cleric 15/ paladin 5 (gaining tier 5 paladin enhancement and losing 9th level spells)? what should I rise and what drop? is it worth to reach a 140 AC or is useless?

thanks to all

(and sorry for my english :P)

[Zachski]

From what I understand, if you're going SnB, you really do want a deeper splash of Paladin for that. And it might not be worth it, even as a tank.

Axel's thread might be worth perusing for information on a melee cleric. It's definitely less SP dependent.

[Gualdrippa]

Thanks!
Axel's seems to me too much dps oriented.

cleric 15 paladin 5
or
cleric 15 paladin 4 warrior 1?

two hands or sword and shield?

it makes any sense to spend points in rising AC or not?

[Zachski]

This isn't like other MMORPGs with highly designated roles - you're going to want to be DPS oriented even as a Cleric, or a Tank.

And Clerics don't make good tanks, generally. You either want to focus on spellcasting or on melee. And by melee I mean THF or TWF - mostly THF. If you want to use a sword and shield, you're honestly better off going pure Paladin or Fighter - Vanguard is an *essential* tree for SnB users, as it gives them bonuses to offense while using a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. And it's kinda top-heavy - a lot of the more essential bonuses are locked behind higher levels, including core abilities. Unless that's changed since I last checked.

AC isn't going to be nearly as important as PRR and MRR.

[Gualdrippa]

Thank you very much for your advice!

Will the Axel's build capable of resist some damage in EE? One of my main problem now is that when I approach a crowned EE mob, I die in 1-2 hits.. I wanted to improve a little bit that... For this reason I was trying to make my cleric tankier...
I was trying to rise AC, but I reach 140-150 and I read that you should have 300 to be a good tank on end game EE...

About the THW matter, I'm afraid that losing my shield will reduce my PRR and MRR, making me even more vulnerable...

and also: in the build is included Perfect Two Handed Fighting, but this is a primal sphere feat. How can you obtain it? as cleric you only have access to divine sphere no? You need an object form DDO store? is there any other way?
If I TR can I complete the tree before I level so that I can take this feat? or should I "Fred" it later?

thanks again

[Zachski]

You can unlock other spheres by advancing in your destinies, I believe.

Though PTHF is a feat that you can take so long as you qualify for it, if I recall correctly.

At this point, my knowledge ends, and it's second-hand anyways.

[unbongwah]

Will the Axel's build capable of resist some damage in EE? One of my main problem now is that when I approach a crowned EE mob, I die in 1-2 hits.. I wanted to improve a little bit that... For this reason I was trying to make my cleric tankier...

Axel's build gains significant survivability bonuses from Sacred D. PrE: namely +25 PRR/MRR, +20% HPs, and +3 to saves. You can make it even tougher by shifting more APs from KotC to SD: +6 CON and +10% run speed at 24 APs.

Also, the deeper pally splash means a bigger boost to saves from Divine Grace: DG bonus is capped at 2 + 3 * n, where n is your number of paladin levels. So with 2 pal lvls, DG provides a max of +8 to saves (CHA 26); Axel's build gains a max of +14 to saves (CHA 38).

I was trying to rise AC, but I reach 140-150 and I read that you should have 300 to be a good tank on end game EE...

DDO is all about layered defenses, particularly in EEs/LEs. So you don't want to focus solely on AC, because you quickly hit a point of diminishing returns; you also want Dodge (up to the limit of your max DEX bonus in armor), concealment (Dusk/Blur/Displacement), and incorporealty (Ghostly), as well as much PRR/MRR as you can squeeze in.

About the THW matter, I'm afraid that losing my shield will reduce my PRR and MRR, making me even more vulnerable...

Yes, you lose some PRR/MRR, but S&B DPS is pretty bad unless you have access to higher-level Vanguard enhancements (or are making a Swashbuckler). And I don't think there's any point in making a "semi-tank:" either you want a real S&B tank, in which case pure paladin is your best option, IMO (see my Sacred Vanguards thread); or you're just trying to toughen up a regular char, in which case you're better off with THF/TWF/SWF combat style for better DPS.

Now, if you said you wanted the most unkillable raid healer ever, I might've said stick with S&B - after first telling you raid healing is a super-niche-y build, so don't do that - but if you're actually wanting to do semi-decent melee DPS, I say stick with 2H weapons. And you're in luck: you can use your 10th anniversary freebie to claim a Cleaver, which is a pretty good ML:23 weapon. Axel's build uses mauls due to the way crit bonuses stacked prior to Update 28; now, though, mauls and greataxes are basically tied for DPS in Dreadnought (at least for a battlecleric like this). [EDIT: alternatively claim a Litany for Turn the Page clickie and farm for epic weapons the old-fashioned way.]

and also: in the build is included Perfect Two Handed Fighting, but this is a primal sphere feat. How can you obtain it? as cleric you only have access to divine sphere no? You need an object form DDO store? is there any other way?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies

Two options for unlocking adjacent EDs:

• Leveling an ED to 3 unlocks adjacent EDs in the same sphere; leveling a "linking" ED to 4 unlocks the adjacent ED in another sphere. E.g., if you level Unyielding Sentinel to 4, it would unlock Grandmaster of Flowers (GMoF), letting you switch to it; leveling GMoF to 3 would then unlock Dreadnought (LD).
• You can purchase a Key of Destiny from DDO Store, which unlocks one adjacent ED. However, I don't recommend this, as long-term you will want to level all EDs to earn as many Fate pts as you can which open Twists of Fate slots.

If I TR can I complete the tree before I level so that I can take this feat?

Yes.

[Gualdrippa]

Thanks for the answers! Very useful indeed.

Actually I take the initiative and I followed the Axel's path. The result is interesting by a DPS point of view. Healing has decreased (and it's not a surprise) but I use aura for main healing and some burst if things start to get worse. Spell points are low, so other spells are reduced. I just cast my buffs at the beginning and then mantain those that last a short time (divine favor, divine might and divine power).

The Tank part is what worries me. my AC dropped to 70 more or less, meaning that all enemies manages to hit me. prr reduces damage by 41% and mrr by 20%. dusk for 10% concealment.

I think that with the gear i have right now (i'm a casual player... I got here because I was a paper and pen D&D player...) I can't expect very much from defence... It was oriented to stack AC but it lacks of other things... So right now I have to buy some new items in order to get blurry, incorporeal, and some more defence.

If I get it right, blurry and incorporeal stacks, right? but for example dusk and blurry no.

I'll have a look to the enhancements trees to see if I can drop a little bit of dps to get a bit of defence. but if I touch the KoTC tree, the first thing I have to drop is Healing Amplification if I'm not wrong... so let's see what can i do...

Thanks for the advice for the freebie: right now I'm using a greatsword with seeker and doublestrike because I haven't nothing better. I'll take the Cleaver waiting to find something better

thanks again for all

[unbongwah]

If I get it right, blurry and incorporeal stacks, right? but for example dusk and blurry no.

Correct: concealment and incorporealty bonuses will stack with each other, but not with themselves.

Thanks for the advice for the freebie: right now I'm using a greatsword with seeker and doublestrike because I haven't nothing better. I'll take the Cleaver waiting to find something better

A few ML:20 weapon options to consider farming: eAntique Greataxe; eGreataxe of Fire; eMournlode g.axe; eFury of the Flame (note it has Impact so you don't need to change Imp Crit feat).

FYI, the "epic starter" gear list in my Sacred Vanguard thread would work fine for a battlecleric as well, since you want almost all of the same gear. The only difference is Axel's battlecleric needs WIS 18 to use all its spells, whereas a paladin only needs WIS 14; you'll probably also want to prioritize a Wizardry item too. [Fortunately, it's a swap item: use up your initial extra SPs to do your pre-combat buffing, then switch it for something more useful.] The Eveningstar and Storm Horns gear is obsolete by modern standards, but it's also far easier to farm for what you need than to play the Random Lootgen Lottery.

Also feel free to experiment with your Enhancements to find the right DPS vs survivability tradeoffs for your build. So much of your performance depends on gear etc. that what works best for Axel with his endgame gear and maxed out EDs isn't necessarily going to be what works best for you while leveling. E.g., if you find yourself needing extra survivability just to keep up with EE PUGs, you can do something like this:

Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (32 AP)

Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing
Extra Turning III, Wand Mastery III, Altruism III
Improved Turning I
Intense Healing III, Unyielding Sovereignty
Endless Turning I, Incredible Healing II, Divine Health
Positive Energy Aura

Sacred Defender (24 AP)

Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense
Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
Bulwark Aura III
Resistance Aura III, Tenacious Defense III
Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III

Knight of the Chalice (9 AP)

Slayer of Evil, Courage of Heaven
Extra Turning II, Extra Smite II
Exalted Cleave III

Warpriest (8 AP)

Smite Foe
Divine Might III, Sacred Touch I
Wall of Steel III

Kensei (4 AP)

Kensei Focus: Axes
Haste Boost III

Human (3 AP)

Damage Boost
Improved Recovery


Destiny (24 AP)

Unyielding Sentinel

Energy Resistance III, Brace for Impact II
Endless Smiting
Renewal III, Endless Lay On Hands III
Light the Dark
Strength of Vitality III, Ward Against Evil (or Hardened) III
Undying Vanguard

Twists of Fate (14 fate points)

Sacred Ground (Tier 3 Crusader)
Consecration (Tier 2 Crusader)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

I give up the extra DPS from KotC for more survivability from SD and Warpriest (+10 PRR). I max out Lay on Hands in order to power Light the Dark, which is a surprisingly good AoE heal on a pally-splashed build like this. This configuration should be darn near unkillable, with the tradeoff being your DPS will be a lot weaker than it is in Dreadnought. But as the old adage goes, "No matter how well-equipped, the DPS of any soulstone is zero."

[Vanhooger]

This isn't like other MMORPGs with highly designated roles - you're going to want to be DPS oriented even as a Cleric, or a Tank.

And Clerics don't make good tanks, generally. You either want to focus on spellcasting or on melee. And by melee I mean THF or TWF - mostly THF. If you want to use a sword and shield, you're honestly better off going pure Paladin or Fighter - Vanguard is an *essential* tree for SnB users, as it gives them bonuses to offense while using a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. And it's kinda top-heavy - a lot of the more essential bonuses are locked behind higher levels, including core abilities. Unless that's changed since I last checked.

AC isn't going to be nearly as important as PRR and MRR.

Well I disagree completely.

Cleric can be top tier tank ( well probably best tank in DDO ) and AC is really important.

AC in the 200+ is really effective on the latest Legendary elite content.

[Gualdrippa]

Thanks for all answers.

I had a look to the Sacred Vanguard thread.
I think I'll stack for a while on a THF Melee Cleric with a little bit more in Sacred Defender and a little bit less in KoTC. Probably switching between Divine Crusader and Unyielding Sentinel to balance between dps and defence...

But I still have curiosity for a S&B Melee Cleric, oriented to high AC, and less active dps (but maybe using elemental guards, Evil ward and things like that to maintain damage ...)
I will try to do something like that in the future... when I'll get tired of the THF.

Vanhooger, you said cleric may be top tier tank. Any build you can reference to me that is oriented in this direction?
Thanks.

[Vanhooger]

Thanks for all answers.

I had a look to the Sacred Vanguard thread.
I think I'll stack for a while on a THF Melee Cleric with a little bit more in Sacred Defender and a little bit less in KoTC. Probably switching between Divine Crusader and Unyielding Sentinel to balance between dps and defence...

But I still have curiosity for a S&B Melee Cleric, oriented to high AC, and less active dps (but maybe using elemental guards, Evil ward and things like that to maintain damage ...)
I will try to do something like that in the future... when I'll get tired of the THF.

Vanhooger, you said cleric may be top tier tank. Any build you can reference to me that is oriented in this direction?
Thanks.

You already mantioned a good one: 15 clr 4 paladin 1 fighter, radiant savant & defender

[Zachski]

Well I disagree completely.

Cleric can be top tier tank ( well probably best tank in DDO ) and AC is really important.

AC in the 200+ is really effective on the latest Legendary elite content.

I wouldn't know, actually, so I guess I'll concede the point.