New 10k Stars is too powerful

**jakeelala** · 10-17-2015, 02:27 AM

for a 20 Monk it's 100% Doubleshot (wrapping if the latest dev posts are to be believed) and Wisdom score to Ranged Power. If you get your wisdom to 38+, and your Monk level over 12-14, this ability is better than the Epic Moment in Divine Crusader.

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?

Better idea:

10k stars grants 2*Wisdom Score in Doubleshot (end game would be 60-100'ish) and 3*Monk level in Ranged Power (3-60 Ranged Power depending on split).

My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive. I don't have the mental wherewithal to gameplan it in every possible ranged build. My feeling however is that one way or the other, no Ranged build will go without it.

Moreover, I am frustrated that ALL of the discussion of 10k stars has revolved around it's utility to Archery, when it is in fact a SHURIKEN specific ability that also allows bows with an extra feat.

Can we please have some dev comments on how they feel 10k changes will affect throwing characters and builds? Do a quick forum survey, there are as many throwers now as there are archery characters, but we're not being represented or acknowledged.

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

**blerkington** · 10-17-2015, 03:56 AM

Hi,

Come on now, the new version of this ability ticks all the important boxes

* Reduces build diversity by making other choices more suboptimal in comparison

* 'Fixes' one tiny part of a class which is built around another combat style but isn't doing well at that

* Potentially makes a heroic level feat equivalent in power to some epic moments

No doubt it was tested more thoroughly (testing conditions and results to come later) than you can even imagine, and the vast majority of the community agreed with the change in a super secret poll. Did you not get your questionnaire?

And I'll raise you a new hashtag #Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges

Thanks.

**McFlay** · 10-17-2015, 04:24 AM

Don't worry about it, they're nerfing twf, all will be right now.

**J-mann** · 10-17-2015, 04:36 AM

I hate to disagree, but If they had merely removed the doubleshot penatly from 10k stars it would be superior to the currently proposed change, and 10k is not super duper op currently, even if you considered the removal of dshot penalty. One thing I will say is that I hate the fact that it is tied to monk levels, please either character levels or entirely wisdom based.....

**legendkilleroll** · 10-17-2015, 06:04 AM

I dont get how every class pass you make it about throwers

Ive only played a thrower once and it seemed very powerful, you seem to have played lots of different versions, talk about how easy it is and how you "dominate" yet you continuously want to be buffed even more, every revamped tree you have wanted even more power and when it comes to monk im sure throwers will get alot more. yes i know it be nice if monk wasnt required but i dont really see any non shuriken

Pretty clear that you just dont want to see the guy you have a problem with build getter something better than yours.

**jakeelala** · 10-17-2015, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by blerkington

Hi,

Come on now, the new version of this ability ticks all the important boxes

* Reduces build diversity by making other choices more suboptimal in comparison

* 'Fixes' one tiny part of a class which is built around another combat style but isn't doing well at that

* Potentially makes a heroic level feat equivalent in power to some epic moments

No doubt it was tested more thoroughly (testing conditions and results to come later) than you can even imagine, and the vast majority of the community agreed with the change in a super secret poll. Did you not get your questionnaire?

And I'll raise you a new hashtag #Imstill****edaboutmanyshotchanges

Thanks.

I understand frustration with Manyshot changes, though stopped playing Bow characters a few years ago so I'm less upset. The burst syngery with FoTW was a fun and unique build style that I really liked.

I will say this though, have you been able to test on Lama how it will work now? With the very much increased RoF (from so much more doubleshot) with the changes, you should be able to regen Adrenalines quite a bit faster in between Manyshots. This would allow you to utilize it more frequently, though likely with around 2.4 arrows per shot, instead of the guaranteed 4. With the Ranged Power that's being added it's still a nerf, but potentially not quite as bad as everyone is making out.

Yes you will not get to have 4 arrows do 12-15k damage all at once anymore, but you also won't be a complete gimp in between those volleys. That was ultimately why I quit playing Monkchers, the intermittency was frustrating. I went to the other end of the spectrum with Throwers, which have lower burst/spike DPS but equal or higher damage over time. I do understand not everyone likes that play style, and I sympathize with people who's builds are being changed and nerfed and altered.

**blerkington** · 10-17-2015, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by jakeelala

I understand frustration with Manyshot changes, though stopped playing Bow characters a few years ago so I'm less upset. The burst syngery with FoTW was a fun and unique build style that I really liked. ...

Hi,

Thanks for the sympathy. My main doesn't run in FoTW and he's not a full-time archer, but I played around with that ED for a while and see why people like it.

Since my main ideally only uses his bow for manyshot, the changes are quite harmful to him because although physical damage for the period seems similar, the loss of missiles means about a 40% reduction in the chance of getting mortal fear procs and other on-hit effects. That downgrades my manyshot considerably more than the weasel words one of the developers used to describe it, which were "slightly less effective".

I did see some maths which suggested a Fury based monkcher would also see a reduction in the number of missiles over the full two minute cycle of about 26%. It's less than what I'm facing, but probably even more serious for them with its implications for proc chances as well as charging ED abilities.

There is also suddenly talk of 'fixing' how adrenaline recharges from ranged attacks, which is pretty hilarious given that the damage output is far less OP by comparion to other builds now than it has ever been in the past. Talk about balancing with a sledgehammer.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread into another rant about manyshot. I'm just quite ****ed off about this change, which could have been done other ways to achieve the stated design goals, and actually appears to be driven by other concerns which the community did not get a chance to discuss.

Good luck with your campaign to iron out some of the problems with your own preferred style of combat. I agree that it seems like it is being ignored, and I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone at Turbine thinks there's going to be even the remotest parity anymore between bows, throwers and crossbows.

Thanks.

**jakeelala** · 10-17-2015, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by blerkington

Hi,

Thanks for the sympathy. My main doesn't run in FoTW and he's not a full-time archer, but I played around with that ED for a while and see why people like it.

Since my main ideally only uses his bow for manyshot, the changes are quite harmful to him because although physical damage for the period seems similar, the loss of missiles means about a 40% reduction in the chance of getting mortal fear procs and other on-hit effects. That downgrades my manyshot considerably more than the weasel words one of the developers used to describe it, which were "slightly less effective".

I did see some maths which suggested a Fury based monkcher would also see a reduction in the number of missiles over the full two minute cycle of about 26%. It's less than what I'm facing, but probably even more serious for them with its implications for proc chances as well as charging ED abilities.

There is also suddenly talk of 'fixing' how adrenaline recharges from ranged attacks, which is pretty hilarious given that the damage output is far less OP by comparion to other builds now than it has ever been in the past. Talk about balancing with a sledgehammer.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread into another rant about manyshot. I'm just quite ****ed off about this change, which could have been done other ways to achieve the stated design goals, and actually appears to be driven by other concerns which the community did not get a chance to discuss.

Good luck with your campaign to iron out some of the problems with your own preferred style of combat. I agree that it seems like it is being ignored, and I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone at Turbine thinks there's going to be even the remotest parity anymore between bows, throwers and crossbows.

Thanks.

Yeah word. I know the math show less missiles over time, but what I don't know if shows is actual total damage. As with throwers, the number of missiles is one variable (both from extra proc chances * actual rate of fire). With a lower total number of missiles you will get less proc/on hit effects, but that can be rapidly made up for by the other multiple in the DPS equation: Physical damage. If the Ranged power during Manyshot is raised enough, it will outpace the lost on hit and %proc effects you lose. And for the vast majority of on hit and %proc effects physical damage can outscale those values pretty quickly. It's why for a thrower, LD is better than Shadowdancer (SD gives SA dice, more RP in the cores, and 5% Vuln proc).

The one real exception to this rule is Mortal Fear against things susceptible to it's most powerful effect. On EE where mobs regularly have 10k+ HP, a vorpal proc is anywhere from 5000-8000 damage with Mortal Fear. That's 250-400 damage per hit. Against trash, you would have to have 200 additional Ranged Power to equivocate. So, versus Red/Purple named, you might actually come out ahead (for full time bow users).

For your hybrid build, its definitely a knock, no matter what. It's like Manyshot was originally designed to be a hybrid characters dream: Use off cooldown for big ranged damage, penalize doubleshot (or not before Doubleshot existed), to switch back to melee. Now they have decided since there is Doubleshot and 10k to just make it be a full time archers ability. The same is happening with 10k stars, which was never meant to only fully benefit pure class Monks. It was just a way to throw extra stars sometimes, rewarding you for high Wisdom. Now it is being adapted to benefit heavy Monk splash full time bow users. Whatever.

**FranOhmsford** · 10-17-2015, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by legendkilleroll

I dont get how every class pass you make it about throwers

Ive only played a thrower once and it seemed very powerful, you seem to have played lots of different versions, talk about how easy it is and how you "dominate" yet you continuously want to be buffed even more, every revamped tree you have wanted even more power and when it comes to monk im sure throwers will get alot more. yes i know it be nice if monk wasnt required but i dont really see any non shuriken

I've also read and heard plenty about Thrower builds being super-duper awesome. {Long before these changes}.

I'm seeing more and more Throwers actually in-game recently - Again these changes haven't come into effect yet.

I've also read and heard a whole bunch about Thrower Builds being the red-headed step-child of DDO.

Now I don't know if it's the same people saying these things - I don't memorize the exact post in every thread and who posted it.

But it does seem like Throwers are one of those specialized builds that some people can make be awesome and for everyone else they're a waste of time.

What actually gets me is what's so special about being able to play a thrower in the first place? Are they actually that much better than a Bow or X-Bow user? Is there a Lore reason that I'm just not au fait to? What is it about Throwers that makes them so wanted by what seems to be a quite significant section of the forums?

Lastly - My one issue with Throwing in DDO is the emphasis on the Shuriken!
We have Throwing Hammers, Axes, Daggers and Darts but seemingly the only weapon that's actually worth building a Thrower around is the Shuriken!
Why aren't more Thrower complaints about that issue?
P.S. No....One specific named Dart isn't going to make the difference!

**Holymunchkin** · 10-17-2015, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by jakeelala

Yeah word. I know the math show less missiles over time, but what I don't know if shows is actual total damage. As with throwers, the number of missiles is one variable (both from extra proc chances * actual rate of fire). With a lower total number of missiles you will get less proc/on hit effects, but that can be rapidly made up for by the other multiple in the DPS equation: Physical damage. If the Ranged power during Manyshot is raised enough, it will outpace the lost on hit and %proc effects you lose. And for the vast majority of on hit and %proc effects physical damage can outscale those values pretty quickly. It's why for a thrower, LD is better than Shadowdancer (SD gives SA dice, more RP in the cores, and 5% Vuln proc).

The one real exception to this rule is Mortal Fear against things susceptible to it's most powerful effect. On EE where mobs regularly have 10k+ HP, a vorpal proc is anywhere from 5000-8000 damage with Mortal Fear. That's 250-400 damage per hit. Against trash, you would have to have 200 additional Ranged Power to equivocate. So, versus Red/Purple named, you might actually come out ahead (for full time bow users).

For your hybrid build, its definitely a knock, no matter what. It's like Manyshot was originally designed to be a hybrid characters dream: Use off cooldown for big ranged damage, penalize doubleshot (or not before Doubleshot existed), to switch back to melee. Now they have decided since there is Doubleshot and 10k to just make it be a full time archers ability. The same is happening with 10k stars, which was never meant to only fully benefit pure class Monks. It was just a way to throw extra stars sometimes, rewarding you for high Wisdom. Now it is being adapted to benefit heavy Monk splash full time bow users. Whatever.

thanks for your continued advice on this subject Jakee
lot's going on with these changes and you definitely are hitting the nail on the head with 10k

**Chai** · 10-17-2015, 08:22 PM

Pure monk gets something nice and the dogs off its leash again, eh?

**Grace_ana** · 10-17-2015, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

Lastly - My one issue with Throwing in DDO is the emphasis on the Shuriken!
We have Throwing Hammers, Axes, Daggers and Darts but seemingly the only weapon that's actually worth building a Thrower around is the Shuriken!
Why aren't more Thrower complaints about that issue?
P.S. No....One specific named Dart isn't going to make the difference!

I already threw my fit over this issue a few times, especially during the rogue pass. They added throwers into the mechanic tree but then didn't give them decent bonuses. That seemed like a ready-made opportunity for them to make non-shuriken throwers viable. Stuff from the swash tree still isn't applying correctly to throwers either, to my knowledge.

I have another PDK-pally life to run on my main, so I am probably trying out a pally-mech thrower to test out specifically how far behind it feels from my shuriken build. I suspect I will be wildly underwhelmed.

**jakeelala** · 10-17-2015, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Chai

Pure monk gets something nice and the dogs off its leash again, eh?

This is not what people want when they complain about monks. They want unarmed combat fixed.

**jakeelala** · 10-17-2015, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Grace_ana

I already threw my fit over this issue a few times, especially during the rogue pass. They added throwers into the mechanic tree but then didn't give them decent bonuses. That seemed like a ready-made opportunity for them to make non-shuriken throwers viable. Stuff from the swash tree still isn't applying correctly to throwers either, to my knowledge.

I have another PDK-pally life to run on my main, so I am probably trying out a pally-mech thrower to test out specifically how far behind it feels from my shuriken build. I suspect I will be wildly underwhelmed.

Dont waste your time. Its terrible. If you have shadowstar and some bard and ranger levels you can abuse sniper shot in heroics because your crit range will be 5-20 with Swashbuckling.

But that will be fixed soon.

**redoubt** · 10-17-2015, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by jakeelala

for a 20 Monk it's 100% Doubleshot (wrapping if the latest dev posts are to be believed) and Wisdom score to Ranged Power. If you get your wisdom to 38+, and your Monk level over 12-14, this ability is better than the Epic Moment in Divine Crusader.

At 20 Monk with 42+ Wisdom, it far exceeds it, due to how often it's up (50% of the time). Really Devs? One ability is going to grant that much power but only to a pure class?

Better idea:

10k stars grants 2*Wisdom Score in Doubleshot (end game would be 60-100'ish) and 3*Monk level in Ranged Power (3-60 Ranged Power depending on split).

My consideration is regarding it's potential use by throwing builds with Shuriken. Not all thrower builds should require 20 Monk levels to be competitive. I don't have the mental wherewithal to gameplan it in every possible ranged build. My feeling however is that one way or the other, no Ranged build will go without it.

Moreover, I am frustrated that ALL of the discussion of 10k stars has revolved around it's utility to Archery, when it is in fact a SHURIKEN specific ability that also allows bows with an extra feat.

Can we please have some dev comments on how they feel 10k changes will affect throwing characters and builds? Do a quick forum survey, there are as many throwers now as there are archery characters, but we're not being represented or acknowledged.

#ThrowerBuildsMatter

Its still less powerful than it was before.

**jakeelala** · 10-18-2015, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by redoubt

Its still less powerful than it was before.

No, it absolutely is not

most people were lucky at end game to have 42 wisdom. That was equivalent to around 90% doubleshot half of the time. So 45% total average doubleshot. However you did not benefit from actual doubleshot for 30 seconds of 10k, and another 15 after that, making whatever actual doubleshot you had contribute at 25%. Figure 38% doubleshot *.25 = 9.5 + 45 = 54.5% effective doubleshot.

After the changes, you will have doubleshot of 3*Monk level. If youre twelve monk, thats 36% doubleshot. However, with 6 ranger levels, you can now get a minimum of 38% base doubleshot, with epic feat, tier 5 DWS, and 8% from the new quiver in Tavern Brawl.

36*.5 is 18, + 38 static, since you now get doubleshot during and after 10k, = 56% effective full-time Doubleshot. The higher your Doubleshot (such as from Killer or 3x Primal past lives) the further the new 10k pulls ahead.

so you see, apples to apples with 12 monk levels, 10k is even. But wait! You still get to add 2*Wisdom to your ranged power 50% of the time, so you're up a whopping 42 average Ranged Power on top of it (assuming 42 Wisdom).

10k is now non-negotiable for a thrower.

**jakeelala** · 10-18-2015, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by legendkilleroll

I dont get how every class pass you make it about throwers

Ive only played a thrower once and it seemed very powerful, you seem to have played lots of different versions, talk about how easy it is and how you "dominate" yet you continuously want to be buffed even more, every revamped tree you have wanted even more power and when it comes to monk im sure throwers will get alot more. yes i know it be nice if monk wasnt required but i dont really see any non shuriken

Pretty clear that you just dont want to see the guy you have a problem with build getter something better than yours.

Actually it has nothing to do with better or seeing someone else get a buff.

It has to do with this change being so significant that there is simply no choice but to go pure Monk. Currently the only way to get Advanced Ninja Training, +2 To your crit threat, and maximized 10k DS/RP is with pure monk. Before the the changes to 10k, there was still some wiggle room to do alternative builds (like for trapping, big SA damage, higher saves, uncentered in some armor, etc) which all provided trade offs for playstyle but were not 10 or 20% behind a pure Monk, and while the DPS focused versions were probably slightly ahead of monk, it was no so drastic that it made much of a difference.

But with these changes, all thrower build diversity is dead.

This doesn't even touch upon the easy fix but now totally broken state of Bards re: throwing, or all 4 other types of throwing weapons which see absolutely zero application in game today (Darts, Axes, Hammers and Daggers).

I would ecstatic if the devs would make a couple small changes to make those other weapon types and therefore non-Monk thrower builds viable. But alas, they so far have not commented at all about fixing existing thrower bugs, or balancing the other throwing weapons to make them worth building around.

**redoubt** · 10-18-2015, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by jakeelala

No, it absolutely is not

most people were lucky at end game to have 42 wisdom. That was equivalent to around 90% doubleshot half of the time. So 45% total average doubleshot. However you did not benefit from actual doubleshot for 30 seconds of 10k, and another 15 after that, making whatever actual doubleshot you had contribute at 25%. Figure 38% doubleshot *.25 = 9.5 + 45 = 54.5% effective doubleshot.

After the changes, you will have doubleshot of 3*Monk level. If youre twelve monk, thats 36% doubleshot. However, with 6 ranger levels, you can now get a minimum of 38% base doubleshot, with epic feat, tier 5 DWS, and 8% from the new quiver in Tavern Brawl.

36*.5 is 18, + 38 static, since you now get doubleshot during and after 10k, = 56% effective full-time Doubleshot. The higher your Doubleshot (such as from Killer or 3x Primal past lives) the further the new 10k pulls ahead.

so you see, apples to apples with 12 monk levels, 10k is even. But wait! You still get to add 2*Wisdom to your ranged power 50% of the time, so you're up a whopping 42 average Ranged Power on top of it (assuming 42 Wisdom).

10k is now non-negotiable for a thrower.

I won't comment on the thrower part. I also have not run a 12 monk with 10k. I ran 6 monk, that is only 18% doubleshot. When running Manyshot, 10k, pause 10k, repeat with things that rely on procs it is a drop in power.

**Firewall** · 10-18-2015, 08:36 PM

The new 10k stars gives power to all kinds of shuriken throwers equally and thus is quite balanced.

The feat was originally created to be a benefit for a shuriken throwing monk (and not archers which were added later). It requires a heavy investment in WIS (through tomes, gear, attribute points etc.), Concentration skillpoints (and thus also somewhat in CON), passive Ki regeneration (8 AP in Henshin Mystic, 1 Twist slot for Enlightenment, staying in water stance,...) and also Ki management because the Ki-resource is shared with other monk abilities like Abundant Step, Shadow Veil, Wholeness of Body, Finishing Move Buffs etc. and thus has a right to be somewhat better than the DC Boost.

Pure monks benefit from higher Doubleshot during 10k stars but even for a pure monk that is only equivalent to 50% fulltime Doubleshot and half the WIS value in ranged power because it is active for 50% of the time at best. Without this change 20 monks would have had no 2nd chance for a projectile during 10k stars which archers can easily get and also almost no benefit from the removal of the Doubleshot Penalty.
Pure monks also lost 10% crit range due to the IC nerf and thus also quite some power of their Sting of the Ninja Enhancement which procs on crits and things like TF on-crit procs.

Rogue and ranger splashes benefit much more from the removal of the Doubleshot penalty due to high fulltime Doubleshot bonuses from their enhancements (where pure monks have none!) and thus make up for the loss in attacks during 10k which is only up half of the time.
Also they benefit a lot more from the added ranged power because they can achieve higher Sneak Attack damage which even scales with 150% ranged power.
Splash builds only lost 5% crit range from halfling or holy sword.

A 15 monk/5 ranger or 14 monk/6 ranger will be able to have higher overall SA-damage, SA range and fulltime Doubleshot bonus than a pure monk with the new version of the feat for example. With your proposal they would be even further ahead of pure monks.

It was easy before to have way higher WIS than only 42 if you made it your second most valuable attribute and ran in water stance. This means there is actually no buff in the new feat. My 20 monk shuriken thrower character even lost a lot of fulltime Doubleshot equivalent and damage by the balance pass which is not compensated by the added ranged power.

Another benefit of the Lamannia version of the 10k feat is that WIS makes a smaller difference in the power of the feat now (so you don't have to invest that much) and you also benefit from uneven values. Also the Divine Crusader ED is now more powerful for shuriken throwers because of up to 60% Doubleshot bonus and 6 WIS.

I agree that they should make other throwing weapon options viable too to add more build diversity.

**jakeelala** · 10-18-2015, 09:14 PM