Crit range Nerf incoming!

[Robai]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):

Weapon	Base crit range	+ Old IC feat	+ New IC feat	+1 range bonus + Old IC	+1 range bonus + New IC	+2 range bonus + Old IC	+2 range bonus + New IC
ESoS / SoS	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sireth	18-20	15-20	17-20 (nerfed by 2)	13-20	16-20 (nerfed by 3)	11-20	15-20 (nerfed by 4)
Bone Crusher	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Bone Crusher	18-20	15-20	17-20 (nerfed by 2)	13-20	16-20 (nerfed by 3)	11-20	15-20 (nerfed by 4)
Needle	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Pinion	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Riftmaker	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic Assassin's Kiss	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Mutineer's Blade	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20
Deathnip	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Balizarde	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Tiefling Assassin's Blade	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sky Pirate's Dagger	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Whirlwind	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Rebellion	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Drow Quarterstaff	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Drow Rapier	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20
Carnifex	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Skullsmasher	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Silver Longbow	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Stout Oak Walking Stick	20-20 (w/o Impact)	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic / Elemental Bloom	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Oathblade	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20

ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

EDIT 3:
The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

• Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
• If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
• Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.

This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

EDIT 4:
Ok, let's see the table after the correct nerf:

Weapon	Base crit range	+ Old IC feat	+ New IC feat	+1 range bonus + Old IC	+1 range bonus + New IC	+2 range bonus + Old IC	+2 range bonus + New IC
ESoS / SoS	18-20	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Sireth	18-20	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Bone Crusher	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Epic Bone Crusher	18-20	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Needle	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Pinion	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Epic Riftmaker	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic Assassin's Kiss	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Mutineer's Blade	17-20	13-20	13-20	11-20	12-20	9-20	11-20
Deathnip	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Balizarde	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Tiefling Assassin's Blade	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Sky Pirate's Dagger	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Whirlwind	18-20	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Rebellion	18-20	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Drow Quarterstaff	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Drow Rapier	17-20	13-20	13-20	11-20	12-20	9-20	11-20
Carnifex	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Skullsmasher	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Silver Longbow	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Stout Oak Walking Stick	20-20 (w/o Impact)	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic / Elemental Bloom	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Oathblade	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20

EDIT 5:
Yay! Severlin actually listened to the feedback!

[Livmo]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen:

Weapon	Base crit range	Crit range with Old IC feat	Crit range with New IC feat
ESoS	18-20	15-20	16-20
Sireth	18-20	15-20	17-20 (the range is shortened by 2)
Bone Crusher	19-20	17-20	18-20
Epic Bone Crusher	18-20	15-20	17-20 (the range is shortened by 2)

ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

Could you add my Needle to that pls?

Not so easy to get and has an x3 crit range.

[Saekee]

add rogue daggers with knife spec, 16-20/3 instead of 15-20/3.

[Chai]

People have been advocating nerfs since the first class pass. The forum Kool-Aid has been served and consumed. Let the cross referencing of posts of those who repeatedly demanded nerfs in the recent past to those who are now rallying against nerfs currently, begin.

[unbongwah]

You can add most of the good Swashbuckling weapons as well, anything with a higher-than-normal crit range. Swashbucklers who don't use rapiers get hit with a double-whammy with the Imp Crit nerf, because their crit range bonuses will also no longer be doubled. Actually, make that a triple-whammy, since Exploit Weakness will no longer be doubled by Imp Crit, either.

Ironic that the class which is supposedly the DPS baseline for this rebalancing is going to be one of the hardest-hit by the DPS nerfs.

[Gremmlynn]

This is going to take a lot of the weapon diversity swash adds out, as rapier and kukri will be better than everything else again due to getting full effect from IC.

[Robai]

Could you add my Needle to that pls?

Done!

[Livmo]

Done!

TYVM for adding the Needle and for adding the Pinion, woot woot!

Also, I run allot of different types of arties, and on a handful I alternate Many Shot and Endless Fuselodge. I can use 2 Endless Fuselodges while Many Shot is on cool down. On these builds I'm typically alternating the Needle and the Pinion.

Much apprecaited!!!

[Robai]

add rogue daggers with knife spec, 16-20/3 instead of 15-20/3.

Done!
Added Epic Assassin's Kiss.

[Navox]

This nerf plus the manyshot nerf = my cancelled VIP, and never looking back.

[Robai]

You can add most of the good Swashbuckling weapons as well, anything with a higher-than-normal crit range. Swashbucklers who don't use rapiers get hit with a double-whammy with the Imp Crit nerf, because their crit range bonuses will also no longer be doubled. Actually, make that a triple-whammy, since Exploit Weakness will no longer be doubled by Imp Crit, either.

Ironic that the class which is supposedly the DPS baseline for this rebalancing is going to be one of the hardest-hit by the DPS nerfs.

Done!
Added Mutineer's Blade, which is a very interesting example since crit range is nerfed by 3 for this weapon

[Lemdog]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):

Weapon	Base crit range	+ Old IC feat	+ New IC feat	+1 range bonus + Old IC	+1 range bonus + New IC	+2 range bonus + Old IC	+2 range bonus + New IC
ESoS	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sireth	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20	11-20	15-20
Bone Crusher	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Bone Crusher	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20	11-20	15-20
Needle	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Pinion	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Riftmaker	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic Assassin's Kiss	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Mutineer's Blade	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20

ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT. Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

Yeah the new balance passes are sealing the deal for me. no one can have my stuff because its not permanent, but this will make me quit.

[Cantor]

This was so needed, and everyone has known it was coming. I would have liked it if they only hit threat abilities with it instead of items with improved threat, but I'm guessing this is just easier to program.

Oh and staff gets a little consolation in that pulverizer will now stack with the staff spec.

[Soleran100]

Guess I need to sell my tome pages before the folks who love deathnips find out about this!

[dunklezhan]

be nice if you included the heroic versions of some of this.

I know I won't be popular for saying this, but I don't actually disagree with the changes in general. However, its very useful to have it all laid out visibly like this, so thanks!

Specifically, I think perhaps they want to rethink the blunts though. Staffs, Mauls etc actually needed a buff - maybe should've included them in the +2 crit range bracket just for that, even if thematically its a bit odd.

[Basura_Grande]

All hail king Balizarde!

[PsychoBlonde]

This was so needed, and everyone has known it was coming. I would have liked it if they only hit threat abilities with it instead of items with improved threat, but I'm guessing this is just easier to program.

Oh and staff gets a little consolation in that pulverizer will now stack with the staff spec.

Actually this makes it a lot easier for them to add in unusual crit ranges without accidentally producing something wildly overpowered, because the stacking on various effects will be a lot more consistent and universal. Remember what a debacle Deadly Weapons was back when it first came out, doubling weapon damage on everything? That was why they instituted the entire +[w] system in the first place. People screamed about that being a "nerf" and what happened, oh, look, now we have weapons that are vastly more powerful because they have higher weapon multipliers than even existed at that time. Everybody always whines about what it'll do to their current builds without thinking about what other options it'll make available in the future. Think ahead? No, I must defend my little fort to the death because The Way it Is Now is The One True Way Ordained By God and anything else is Unacceptable.

[Robai]

Guess I need to sell my tome pages before the folks who love deathnips find out about this!

Yeah, you bring a good example since Deathnip also has Heartseeker IV and Seeker +10, which works on criticals only. So, yeah, this weapon will be nerfed indeed very hard.

be nice if you included the heroic versions of some of this.

I know I won't be popular for saying this, but I don't actually disagree with the changes in general. However, its very useful to have it all laid out visibly like this, so thanks!

Specifically, I think perhaps they want to rethink the blunts though. Staffs, Mauls etc actually needed a buff - maybe should've included them in the +2 crit range bracket just for that, even if thematically its a bit odd.

Any specific requests?
So far there are 3 heroic weapons on that list: SoS, Bone Crusher and Deathnip.

[dunklezhan]

Yeah, you bring a good example since Deathnip also has Heartseeker IV and Seeker +10, which works on criticals only. So, yeah, this weapon will be nerfed indeed very hard.



Any specific requests?
So far there are 3 heroic weapons on that list: SoS, Bone Crusher and Deathnip.

Oops, hadn't spotted them. Was thinking how sky pirate's dagger and Tiefling Assassin's blade combined with swashbuckly bonuses are going to turn out. Obviously these lower level weapons have 'keen' rather than IC crit on them, but that crit range on a swashbuckler is still crazy on live at the moment for those levels (my second life L8 bard is just murdering his way through the quests. Almost every second hit is a crit, and they are BIG - its that kind of thing, and my barbarian using a tricked out Whirlwind all the way to 20 that makes me not particularly upset by the changes - but note I have no comment on the effect in epic, I simply don't play enough epic to say if these changes are a good thing or a bad thing there).

I think the changes will mean they lose one off the crit range each, but I might be wrong.

(NB Whirlwind is another good one to put up there)

[Robai]

All hail king Balizarde!

Enjoy the nerf. Added it to the table!

Oops, hadn't spotted them. Was thinking how sky pirate's dagger and Tiefling Assassin's blade combined with swashbuckly bonuses are going to turn out. Obviously these lower level weapons have 'keen' rather than IC crit on them, but that crit range on a swashbuckler is still crazy on live at the moment for those levels (my second life L8 bard is just murdering his way through the quests. Almost every second hit is a crit, and they are BIG - its that kind of thing, and my barbarian using a tricked out Whirlwind all the way to 20 that makes me not particularly upset by the changes - but note I have no comment on the effect in epic, I simply don't play enough epic to say if these changes are a good thing or a bad thing there).

I think the changes will mean they lose one off the crit range each, but I might be wrong.

(NB Whirlwind is another good one to put up there)

All 3 weapons added!