Magical Damage in Epic

[Vargouille]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

• Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
• Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)

These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)

• Passive
• +20% Critical Damage with Spells
• Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)

Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)

• Passive
• +20% Critical Damage with Spells
• Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I

This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

[Jetrule]

Will this epic level to caster level break the spells ceiling? for example the spell Inflict light wounds- Negative energy is channeled through the caster touch to inflict light wounds on the target for 1d6+2 damage plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 5.), or to heal Undead. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. Would it be maximum caster level 13 on a lvl 28 cleric?

[Vargouille]

Will this epic level to caster level break the spells ceiling? for example the spell Inflict light wounds- Negative energy is channeled through the caster touch to inflict light wounds on the target for 1d6+2 damage plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 5.), or to heal Undead. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. Would it be maximum caster level 13 on a lvl 28 cleric?

As stated, this would not be touching maximum caster levels. That's something we might look at in the future but not for this change, which is mostly moving the existing buffs from Epic Destinies into Epic Levels, which seems like a clear win at this time.

[Jetrule]

Well that said it is a boon for all casters to some degre The spell crit feats are very powerful. And needed especialy for a dps sorc or wizard. I am not sure how useful the additional caster levels will be outside of multiclass builds.

Assuming it stacks with warlocks crit damage boosts I can see a shiradi return to dominance with wiz warlock fvs.

[HuneyMunster]

New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)

• Passive
• +20% Critical Damage with Spells
• Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)

Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)

• Passive
• +20% Critical Damage with Spells
• Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I

This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

So these feats will be Epic Destiny feats?

Also, the biggest problem with making one of them a level 28 spell would be you would not be able to take Hellball which along with Ruin is the only epic feat spells for arcane casters. The other Destiny Feat it would replace is epic spell power at level 26 and that 20% more crit damage is better than 20 spell power in an element.

[Blackheartox]

So, did i read this right, you plan to add holy sword to casters?

Im all for it, as i alrdy tested on warlock, spell critical damage is the best scaling casting stat in ddo for magical damage, this would give a huge benefit to almost all existing caster builds, and with increase to lv 30 which gives us a potential new feat the feat selection would perma include those feats.

I am lazy to check what update we have upcoming right now, is this update 26 we will get now?
If yes, then ty and this will make a nice comeback for casters, also another question unrelated to this that imo might be a huge buff, maybe a bit to huge (yet needed in case you dont plan to tone down bard/barb/rogue/palie dps) , are we gonna get new dots?

Efficiency wise, id say make 1 feat a epic feat that takes regular slot and 2nd feat the lv 26 selectable feat.
By pushing it toward 28 you would lock many builds out from helball, and that would specifically target warlocks imo since they heavily rely on ruin/hellball for bursty dps.

So something like epic critical damage and arcane critical damage, one that takes a regular epic feat and one that takes a lv 26 feat.
Issue with this of course is that i promote a caster buff this way for most benefit for caster players
Fully realistical tho, i think best is to make those epic regular feats, so taken at lv 21,24 and 27

Another question, those feats would affect eldritch blasts as well, right?

[janave]

Well that said it is a boon for all casters to some degre The spell crit feats are very powerful. And needed especialy for a dps sorc or wizard. I am not sure how useful the additional caster levels will be outside of multiclass builds.

Assuming it stacks with warlocks crit damage boosts I can see a shiradi return to dominance with wiz warlock fvs.

This is pretty much what i think, seems like a major buff to hybrids and multiclasses while offering little extra for the pure builds, sorcerer's will have a hard time with their feat slots. Hopefully the spell crit damage wont compete with stuffs like 'Ruin', thats real trouble choosing there.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I'm pleasantly surprised. Thumbs up.

[Gralhota]

Any chance of spells be reviewed in the next three months? All veteran players choose the same spells, since they are the only ones with any use.

It would be very exciting to schools outside the Necro / Enchant group were redone or to gain new spells.

Please, I'm not asking for new classes of prestige, I am asking only that spell focus is usable at the time spell focus = Necro / Enchant focus.
In addition, the tree of Archmage can behave perfectly all schools per hour (SLA choose only the most useful).

Casters and mainly Wizards should have a range of possibilities, not just the cake recipe that ALL of us must undergo mandatory.


Anyway, thanks for the open attitude to dialogue, this creates hope and motivation to continue.

[HuneyMunster]

This is pretty much what i think, seems like a major buff to hybrids and multiclasses while offering little extra for the pure builds, sorcerer's will have a hard time with their feat slots. Hopefully the spell crit damage wont compete with stuffs like 'Ruin', thats real trouble choosing there.

Level 26 or 28 as a requirement was mentioned so seems more like they will complete with either with those feats and not ruin. If so then it could result in lose of Hellball. If a mistake on the feats levels and they should be epic feats then it would mean ruin or crit damage. If level 21 is out as a possibility then they would require being level 24 and 27

Yes they do seem to be more easier to be obtain for wiz/fvs magic missile build that a pure dc caster. Maybe make the crit damage based on the highest level of the appropriate classes you have so that pure get 20% and 12 fvs 6 wiz 2 pal would get 12%

[maddong]

The caster level change is fine but it does help wiz 14/fvs 4/pal 2 type builds more than pure casters due to the caster level caps.

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

Additionally when it comes to reflex saves the critical damage doesn't matter unless you have the past lives/uber gear/tomes to back it up. If you are not an optimized player this makes it harder since you have to devote two epic feats to that instead of improving your invocation DCs. I find it extremely frustrating trying to run a caster in epic elites, especially compared to a 15 paladin/5 rogue or 18+ rogue which adapts to epic elites ridiculously easily.

--- Later addition from later player posts:

I would do a hybrid on the caster level thing (yes it is inflation but since you won't nerf the "overperforming" things ie bard/paladin/barbarian casters will need a little inflation at epic levels only):
EDs add up to +5 epic caster levels.
Epic levels add up to +8 epic caster levels (these do not stack with other epic caster level bonuses such as EDs so you get whichever bonus is higher).

That way we get the +3 spell penetration that we will need for epic devils content, and you have more destiny options at cap--but you aren't nerfing us in MOTU.


The suggestion I like the best in regards to caster damage was the 5% critical damage per epic level (40% at level 28, the same as the 2 proposed feats), but I think this will just promote everyone playing Shiradi non DC casters.


To buff non Shiradi's without buffing Shiradi's you probably have two options:
1. Increase max caster levels on spells (since this typically increases dice on things like delayed blast fireball but does not increase your number of magic missiles or scorching rays).

2. Have each epic level decrease the mana that your pure damage non healing spells cost (ie polar ray, niac's, divine punishment, blade barrier, and meteor swarm; but not sunburst, cure critical, SLAs, or mass hold). If every epic level decreased the cost of damage spells by 7% then a 70 mana meteor swarm (after metamagics) would cost only 21 mana at level 30.

[Gralhota]

The caster level change is fine but it does help wiz 14/fvs 4/pal 2 type builds more than pure casters due to the caster level caps.

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

Additionally when it comes to reflex saves the critical damage doesn't matter unless you have the past lives/uber gear/tomes to back it up. If you are not an optimized player this makes it harder since you have to devote two epic feats to that instead of improving your invocation DCs. I find it extremely frustrating trying to run a caster in epic elites, especially compared to a 15 paladin/5 rogue or 18+ rogue which adapts to epic elites ridiculously easily.

I agree.

[HastyPudding]

While I appreciate the intent, I'm not sure I like the removal of caster levels from epic destinies.

- This potentially harms casters unless you are level 27-28, especially if you rely on spell penetration (and the lower level epics are filled with drow and demons that have high spell resistance). So, since the vast majority of people either ETR or ITR, this essentially gimps your potential damage and certainly gimps your spell penetration for the majority of epic levels. How is this a buff? It seems more like a nerf, to me.

- This harms pure casters far more than multiclass builds, as they are likely to be much more dependent on caster levels. This is essentially a nerf to spellcasters and a buff to multiclass eldritch knights, warpriests, shiradi casters, paladin builds, and swashbucklers.

- Casters are already highly strapped for feats without having to worry about critical damage feats. We have to worry about spell penetration, epic mental toughness if you want it, spell DC feats, extra metamagics we couldn't get in heroics due to already feat-starved classes, and other epic feats that are nice to have (like inspire excellence for bards, and future warlock feats). Too much choice and not enough freedom is a sure way to get overwhelmed and irritated.


Some counter proposals:

- Add universal spellpower to epic levels.

- Add +1 universal DC's to epic levels, 21, 23, 25, and 27.

- Add caster levels to epic levels 21, 23, 25, and 27.

- Add +3% critical spell damage to epic levels.

[Cynick]

I already see a bit of confusion creeping in here.

Varg states the feats would, as things are atm, be Epic feats, those normally taken at 21, 24, or 27.

He also states one or both COULD be a Destiny feat, at 26 or 28 but that idea seems to be still under discussion, and seems to be fairly unpopular so far from this thread.

As with any early info the devs give us, requirements may change, but its up to us to give feedback, and to give good reasons why so they can make those changes based on what we think.

[Systern]

Since you said that the intention is not to change Max Caster Level, and the vast majority of damage spells are capped far below character level; this won't accomplish what you're hoping (increase in damage). i.e. Fireball is still capped at 10d3+30 damage. http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer_/_Wizard_spells Searching for "Maximum" gives 54 hits...

It's flexibility in DC calculation, since there caster levels are not capped.

[Iriale]

Pleasant surprised, at least you know that there are problems. ty for think in this!

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

True, is needed, but we don't need a big boost in this regard. I think that we need more better mana efficiency. For example, do you know how mana intensive is to have heighten, empower and maximize permanently on, although is needed in epics? Before to do big changes on spell dps, please, see on the mana efficiency problem, and then you will can balance better the boost in dps.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.

Spell DCs are not a big problem now, but, please, 2 things: your changes should not lower our DCs, and futures monsters don't should have improvements in their saves. DC casting works now, but needs a massive investment. If you lower our DCs, we can struggle with DC spells.

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

• Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
• Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)

These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.

In principle not a bad idea, but I see serious problems for this. The first epic content we do to reach epic is Menace of the Underdark, and seriously, the SR of those drow is almost prohibitive even with maximized EDs. Wizards players will curse you if you do them this --- if now is difficult to use spells with SR in the drow, will be impossible to do at level with this change.

If you make this change, please add some improvements in the SR penetration of wizards. This class is already sufficiently penalized. I guess that necrodivines won't be happy either without a boost in their SR penetration. Or lower the SR of menace drows :P

New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)

• Passive
• +20% Critical Damage with Spells
• Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)

Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)

• Passive
• +20% Critical Damage with Spells
• Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I

This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

Two things--- paladins and not true spellcasters should not to have access to these feats. No, please, they don't need to make better energy burst, they have their melee dps and their weapon crits. The feats should be for true spellcasters only. There are feats that need a good amount of levels in classes: inspire excellence, improved martial arts, vorpal strikes, improved sneak attack…

Second, DC spellcasters can't afford lose more spell DC. We don't ask for more DC, but we can't afford lose more DC. Currently DC spellcasters spend ALL their epic feats in DC improvements, less Ruin, which is chosen for a lot of DC spellcasters. Seriously, these feats will be a must, but the lost of DC will be painful too and benefits more to the builds that not need DC. Shiradi builds (which have already a nice dps with shiradi procs) will rejoice in this. Please, yes to better spell crits, but in feats, no.

First, are you sure you want to give this boost to DPS also builds in shiradi? (because I think that shiradi builds would deserve a little boost, but don't need a big boost!) Otherwise, these benefits should be included in other caster EDs instead in feats, and shiradi ED would receive a lesser spell crit.

Second, if you create these feats, they will be mandatory. The spell dps is needed badly today in epics. Then, you can delete all others casting feats lol. And can you consider returning the lost DC to the DC spellcasters? Because if not, the change will have a bittersweet taste for more than one player. I said you: we are not bad on DC side now, but we can not afford to lose DC. No, we can't.

My opinion? These benefits should go in casters EDs or the empower and maximize feats should scale giving spell crit in epics, along with the spell crit of mental toughness… but better on casters EDs, because melees don't need improve their spells. The idea is good, the benefit is right-- we need more spell crit, true--- but as feats? As mandatory feats? No the best way to implement this, imho. There will no variation on feats on epics. Will be: crit feat, crit feat, ruin. Sure that you want this?

In any case, if you create these feats, I will get them lol. And I will look for a way to recover my lost DC. We really need an improvement in this regard. But, think about to reduce the cost of metamagic in epics, Varg, please. Mana efficiency is now horrible.

ty for think in spellcasters!

[MonadRebelion]

I suppose the intention here is to make casters more competitive with the new super charged melees. That end I feel mixed about these feats. The problem is that in order to benefit from the feats I have to figure out which feats I want to drop. That won't be too bad for wizards, but it's gonna suck for clerics who are feat starved. When you look at what happened to paladins, the changes that were made essentially gave them extra feats. All the pre-req's for Overwhelming Crit were lifted and cleaves were added to KotC. So, every paladin with OC just got two feats freed up and even better cleaves than the feats. So figure out a way to give me 2 free feats and I'll say yeah this will help casters be competitive with melees.

[Lonnbeimnech]

The caster level change is fine but it does help wiz 14/fvs 4/pal 2 type builds more than pure casters due to the caster level caps.

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

Additionally when it comes to reflex saves the critical damage doesn't matter unless you have the past lives/uber gear/tomes to back it up. If you are not an optimized player this makes it harder since you have to devote two epic feats to that instead of improving your invocation DCs. I find it extremely frustrating trying to run a caster in epic elites, especially compared to a 15 paladin/5 rogue or 18+ rogue which adapts to epic elites ridiculously easily.

If you add +6 universal spell power, that's going to amount to +48 by level 28. An undergeared sorcs is going to be running at 600+ in his main element easily by then, you are talking about maybe a 2% increase in his dps.

+6 universal power would be much more noticeable on a paladin casting cocoon. It might go from 120 a tick to 130...

[MonadRebelion]

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

This would help casters more than 2 new feats

[Ape_Man]

taxing us 2 feats for this sucks, sucks really hard. Please scrap this idea.

Scale more damage, maybe as some spell power added per epic level, would be better than taxing us two feats.