Barbarian/Rogue Quarterstaff build

[Thrudh]

Build notes for myself... could use some advice too

12/6/2 Human Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter

Rebuilt my barbarian a few months ago... Decided to go with a q-staff build, since I've never done that before, so I thought be more interesting than a pure level 20 barbarian using a greataxe.

This guy is a heavy armor, tactics based build, with barbarian strength, and rogue q-staff speed... I thought about splashing druid, but armor choices are not very good in epics (dragonscale works from 14-20)

Reason for choices

* At least 11 levels of barbarian (since this is my barb character) for Greater Rage
* At least 5 levels of rogue for Staff Specialization - I like the 6th level of rogue, for the extra skills, and the tumble through enemies ability at level 6 rogue in Thief Acrobat
* 2 levels of fighter for Heavy Armor and 2 bonus feats (essentially 3 feats) - I could be persuaded to swap these out for something else if anyone has any ideas...

This guy ends up with maxed out UMD, Intimidate, Search, and Spot... Disable is only 2 short of max... Open Lock is a passable 12 or so

Tactics are very good... Solid Stunning Blow, solid Trip, and Ear Smash.... With all 3 of those, I can usually keep most mobs down...

Self-healing is not very good on this guy... Used CSW and silver flame pots in the heroic levels. Now that I'm 20th level, I will test out Cocoon and Consecrated Ground.

Using tactics, and playing smart, I can keep him from getting too hurt most of the time...

Stats:

• Strength - 18 - all level ups
• Dexterity - 10
• Constitution -17
• Intelligence - 11 (went higher here for skills, and with a +2 tome, the ability to get Combat Expertise and Improved Trip)
• Wisdom - 8
• Charisma - 10

Level progression and chosen Feats:

• 1 Rogue - Power Attack, Stunning Blow
• 2 Barbarian
• 3 Fighter - DragonMark of Passage, Cleave
• 4 Rogue
• 5 Barbarian
• 6 Barbarian - THF
• 7 Barbarian
• 8 Rogue
• 9 Barbarian - Improved Critical: Blunt
• 10 Barbarian
• 11 Rogue
• 12 Fighter - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
• 13 Barbarian
• 14 Rogue
• 15 Barbarian - ITHF
• 16 Barbarian
• 17 Barbarian
• 18 Rogue - Magical Training (for Cocoon when I hit 20)
• 19 Barbarian
• 20 Barbarian
• 21 Epic - Overwhelming Critical
• 24 Epic - GTHF
• 26 Epic Destiny - Tactician (+2 to DCs)
• 27 Epic - Blinding Speed? (Maybe Quick Draw)
• 28 Epic Destiny - Perfect Two-weapon fighting (5% doublestrike)

There are two main choices I'm looking at for enhancements...

One is maxing out the Ravager line, with a little bit of Acrobat, and the other is focusing on Acrobat, which lets me delve into all 3 barbarian trees....

Ravager with a little Acrobat gives more DPS (Nice to get Bully AND No Mercy - 15% and 30% extra damage against helpless) and some self-healing, but that definitely is VERY tight, AP-wise, leaving very little for anything else. You lose Ear Smash, which is a no-save tactic... hurts to lose that. You also lose Dimension Door.


Enhancements:

Ravager

• Furious Rage
• Pain Touch
• Demoralizing Success
• Pain Touch
• Ritual Scarring (2/3)
• Power Attack (3/3)
• Hardy Rage (3/3) +3 CON while raging
• Do you Like Pain (3/3) - 60% chance for negative 10 to enemy AC
• I like Pain (3/3) - change to get 150 temp hp
• I Hit Back (3/3) - 20% chance to deal 6d8 bane damage
• Bully (3/3) - 15% damage to helpless
• Slaughter (3/3) - 10W attack
• Laughter (1/1) - Stacks of Fury, 10 melee power
• Strength +1 (1/1)
• Strength +1 (1/1)
• Crit Rage (2/2)
• Blood Strength (1/1)

= 39

Thief Acrobat

• Staff Control
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Thief Acrobatics (3/3) - 15% attack speed with q-staff
• Haste Boost (3/3)
• Trip Focus (3/3) - +3 to Trip DC
• Quick Strike (3/3) - 25% doublestrike
• Strength +1
• No Mercy (3/3) - 30% damage to helpless opponents

= 23

Frenzied Berzerker

• Die Hard
• Frenzied Toughness
• Death Frenzy
• Extra Rage (2/3) - 4 extra rages
• Power Rage (2/3) - +2 Strength when raging
• Sprint Boost (1/3)
• Extra Action Boost (1/3)
• Supreme Cleave (1/3)

= 12

Human

• Skill Boost
• +1 Strength
• Damage Boost
• Healing Amp 20%

= 6

TOTAL = 80



The other option is going for Tier 5 Acrobat and Staff Spec... If you're still leveling EDs, and/or focusing on karma in all the spheres for eTRs, Staff Spec is better than Crit Rage from Ravager... (If you're only running in LD, then the Ravager option above is better DPS than Staff Spec)... Going Acrobat T5 also gives you a lot more flexibility with your APs., This lets you get a bunch of low-hanging fruit from all 3 barb trees, but you lose self-healing from Ravager.


Thief Acrobat

• Staff Control - Core1
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Thief Acrobatics (3/3) - 15% attack speed with q-staff
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Haste Boost (3/3)
• Trip Focus (3/3) - +3 to Trip DC
• Quick Strike (3/3) - 25% doublestrike
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Strength +1
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Strength +1
• No Mercy (3/3) - 30% damage to helpless opponents
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1) - (all those together add up to +7 to hit, and +9 to damage - not bad)
• Staff Specialization (1/1) - +1 to crit range and +1 to crit multiplier with staffs

= 35

Thinking about spending 4 more points points to get Sweeping Strikes, Staff Lunge, and Vault (really just for Vault)
And possibly 2 points in the cores for Tumbler

Occult Slayer

• Weapon Bond
• Resistance
• Elemental Defense
• Extend Rage (2/3) - 50% longer rages
• Ear Smash (3/3)
• Knockout (3/3) - no save single target stun
• Arcane Encumberance (3/3) - magic users have a 30% chance of getting knocked down when they cast spells at me

= 14

Frenzied Berzerker

• Die Hard
• Frenzied Toughness
• Death Frenzy
• Frenzied Toughness
• Extra Rage (3/3) - 6 extra rages
• Power Rage (3/3) - +3 Strength when raging
• Athletics (3/3) - gives a free sprint boost whenever you rage
• Sprint Boost (1/3)
• Extra Action Boost (2/3)
• +1 CON

= 21

Ravager

• Furious Rage
• Pain Touch - 1d6 damage per attack
• Power Attack (2/3)
• Hardy Rage (2/3) +2 CON when raging

=6


Human

• Skill Boost
• +1 Strength
• Damage Boost

= 4



Total = 80

Spent more on Frenzied Berzerker than I really wanted just to get the level 12 core ability Frenzied Toughness (60 hps, 20 healing amp, 10 PRR)...

Could easily free up 7 APs there if I decided to change things around... I lost Dimension Door, so I need to swap out the DragonMark feat... Maybe for Quick Draw or something.

Thoughts? Is Dimension Door worth the feat, and the AP points spent?

[Thrudh]

What epic quarterstaffs are good? I used the Theurgic Stave from 8-11, and a Min II greensteel q-staff from 12-20... Trying to figure out which epic staffs are best... Any of them have expanded crit-range?

Sireth, of course, but doesn't it have a problem with Pulveriser?

[BigErkyKid]

What epic quarterstaffs are good? I used the Theurgic Stave from 8-11, and a Min II greensteel q-staff from 12-20... Trying to figure out which epic staffs are best... Any of them have expanded crit-range?

Sireth, of course, but doesn't it have a problem with Pulveriser?

My suggestions:

- Change the fighter for more barbarian levels: it will help with self healing, you are not that feat starved.

- Drop t5 acrobat and reduce rogue levels: you can get pulverizer and use the new staff (or the staff from commendations in star) to keep a x3 profile. Crit rage and barbarian healing will serve you better.

All in all, a couple of rogue levels could be enough to grab the low hanging enhancements from acrobat, IMHO.

[unbongwah]

What epic quarterstaffs are good?

Stout Oak becomes 17-20/x4 w/Staff Spec; eLuminous Truth, eSouleater, and drow staff are 15-20/x3; eBone Crusher is 13-20/x3 (same as Sireth); Elemental Bloom is 15-20/x4.

Sireth, of course, but doesn't it have a problem with Pulveriser?

Pulverizer doesn't stack with Staff Specialization anyway, so it's a moot point in this case; but yes, Pulverizer doesn't apply to Sireth because it does slashing/piercing dmg, not bludgeoning. [Even though you still want Blunt feats for Sireth, not Slash or Pierce.]

- Change the fighter for more barbarian levels: it will help with self healing, you are not that feat starved.

- Drop t5 acrobat and reduce rogue levels: you can get pulverizer and use the new staff (or the staff from commendations in star) to keep a x3 profile. Crit rage and barbarian healing will serve you better.

At that point, you might as well do barb 18 / rog 2, since Acrobatics + Quick Strike are the only must-haves if not going for T5 Acro; that also gets you Death Frenzy.

[Thrudh]

I think the Staff Spec (Rogue 5+) build does slightly more damage, but you do lose a lot of self-healing by not getting the T5 barb enhancements.

Using Sireth (18-20/x2 crit profile) - (doesn't work with Pulverizer)

Rog 5+ staff build:
18-20/x2 base -> 17-20/x3 (Staff Spec) -> 13-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 13-18/x3 19-20/x5 (OC+Dev Crit)

Rog 2/barb 18 build (Crit Rage+Death Frenzy):
18-20/x2 base -> 15-20/x2 (IC:Blunt) -> 13-20/x2 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x2 19-20/x5 (OC+DC+DF)

Rog 2/barb 18 build (Focused Wrath+Death Frenzy):
18-20/x2 base -> 15-20/x2 (IC:Blunt) -> 15-18/x2 19-20/x7 (OC+DC+FW+DF)


I think that first one looks better, DPS wise... plus the extra rogue levels means I have full trapping skills, including Spot. But the trade-off is definitely poorer self-healing... Ah well, I've played this barbarian in the past with very little self-healing... I can do it again... Keeps my skills sharp...


Also, one other note, keeping up 1 minute Death Frenzy is a pain, so I'm rather glad I get good DPS without bothering with it... I've got enough going on with this build... With Haste Boost, and Damage Boost, and 3 different tactic attacks, plus Quick Strike every 12 seconds to keep 25% doublestrike going, plus cleaves, I'm doing plenty of button smashing... I don't want to have to keep track of Death Frenzy as well.

[Thrudh]

Ooh... elemental bloom looks nice

Rog 5+ staff build:
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 (Staff Spec) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (OC+Dev Crit)


Although, with that staff, going more barb (Ravager Focus) might be worth it...

Rog 2/barb 18 build (Crit Rage+Death Frenzy):
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x3 (Pulverizer) --> 15-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 13-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x3 19-20/x6 (OC+DC+DF)

13-18 x3 is worth more than 15-18 x4 (say base 100 damage, 13-18 x3 equals 1800 damage, 15-18 x4 equals 1600 damage)

[Thrudh]

Comparing Sireth and Elemental Bloom...

Rog 5+ staff build:
18-20/x2 base -> 17-20/x3 (Staff Spec) -> 13-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 13-18/x3 19-20/x5 (OC+Dev Crit)

Rog 5+ staff build:
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 (Staff Spec) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (OC+Dev Crit)

Looks like they do the same amount of DPS from base damage

Say 100 base damage per hit....

Sireth
13-18/x3 = 1800
19-20/x5 = 1000

Bloom
15-18/x4 = 1600
19-20/x6 = 1200

Sireth has more damage effects (Supreme Good, Lightning Strike), but Bloom has slightly more base damage - 5d6 = 17.5 compared to Sireths 2.5d10 = 13.75, plus the extra melee power Bloom gets (and a Purple slot)

They look pretty close... I wonder how well the paralyzing effect on bloom works in Epic Elite... I always like ways to stop mobs from hitting me... I consider that just as useful as MOAR DPS!

[BigErkyKid]

Ooh... elemental bloom looks nice

Rog 5+ staff build:
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 (Staff Spec) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (OC+Dev Crit)


Although, with that staff, going more barb (Ravager Focus) might be worth it...

Rog 2/barb 18 build (Crit Rage+Death Frenzy):
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x3 (Pulverizer) --> 15-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 13-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x3 19-20/x6 (OC+DC+DF)

13-18 x3 is worth more than 15-18 x4 (say base 100 damage, 13-18 x3 equals 1800 damage, 15-18 x4 equals 1600 damage)

I am pretty sure barbarian 18 rogue 2 is going to be better:

- More self healing
- Better crit profile
- Better barbarian effects in general

I mean why would you even want to go for something else?

There is little to no gain with more rogue levels. The abilities have a long cool down and are not really that hot (in acrobat).

[BigErkyKid]

At that point, you might as well do barb 18 / rog 2, since Acrobatics + Quick Strike are the only must-haves if not going for T5 Acro; that also gets you Death Frenzy.

It is even more damage with 18 barb, seems like a no brainer :P

[gwonbush]

I am pretty sure barbarian 18 rogue 2 is going to be better:

- More self healing
- Better crit profile
- Better barbarian effects in general

I mean why would you even want to go for something else?

There is little to no gain with more rogue levels. The abilities have a long cool down and are not really that hot (in acrobat).

I'd question the better crit profile. Even using elemental bloom, the best you can achieve is equal crit profile with t5 ravager and death frenzy in LD with Pulverizer. With Sireth, the crit profile clearly supports t5 acrobat. To compare:

T5 Acrobat Elemental Bloom: 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (if in LD) for a total of 110% extra damage from crits. If you are in DC, the crit range is 13-18/x4 19-20/x5 for 130% extra damage.

Ravager with Death Frenzy wielding Bloom: 13-18/x3 19-20/x6 in LD for 110% extra damage (though more crit procs, so slightly better), only 13-18/x3 19-20/x5 in DC for 100% extra damage

T5 acrobat with Sireth: 13-18/x3 19-20/x5 in LD for 100% extra damage from crits, 11-18/x3 19-20/x4 in DC for 110% extra damage.
Ravager with Death Frenzy and Sireth: 13-18/x2 19-20/x5 in LD for only 60% extra damage (Sireth doesn't work with Pulverizer), 11-18/x2 19-20/x4 in DC for 70%.

So from a critical profile perspective, Acrobat is still the best bet. That being said, all the other Barbarian goodies (especially the self healing), almost certainly outweigh the crit profile bonus from t5 acrobat.

Where Thrudh went wrong on his math in assuming that the crit profile was better for Barbs was counting the base 1x damage that you would have gotten if you hadn't gotten the crit. This puts more weight on the expanded crit range (though lower multiplier) of the ravager in his calculations, because he isn't counting the whole d20, just the rolls that give crits.

[unbongwah]

13-18 x3 is worth more than 15-18 x4 (say base 100 damage, 13-18 x3 equals 1800 damage, 15-18 x4 equals 1600 damage)

Assuming best case where you hit on everything above a 1:

rog 5+: 100 * 13 + (100 * 4) * 4 + (100 * 6) * 2 = 4,100
barb 18: 100 * 11 + (100 * 3) * 6 + (100 * 6) * 2 = 4,100

So it actually works out the same overall.

There is little to no gain with more rogue levels. The abilities have a long cool down and are not really that hot (in acrobat).

Sireth w/Staff Spec is a significant DPS boost over barb 18 b/c Pulverizer doesn't work w/Sireth. For other staves, though, it's more of a wash DPS-wise (assuming LD); and I agree the free self-heals from barb are a pretty nice perk, esp. on a build with high doublestrike (Quick Strike + Lightning Mace) and +15% atk speed (lots of extra hits means lots of extra Blood Strength procs).

[BigErkyKid]

I'd question the better crit profile. Even using elemental bloom, the best you can achieve is equal crit profile with t5 ravager and death frenzy in LD with Pulverizer. With Sireth, the crit profile clearly supports t5 acrobat.

My comment was using the new stick.

you can get pulverizer and use the new staff (or the staff from commendations in star) to keep a x3 profile. Crit rage and barbarian healing will serve you better.

So from a critical profile perspective, Acrobat is still the best bet.

I don't think so. Compare an acrobat using sireth vs a barbarian using the new stick. Yup, exact same profile.
Now compare a barbarian using the new stick with an acrobat. Yup, equivalent profiles.
The only place where barbarians lose is using sireth. But you shouldn't use it, get the stick from eStar until you get the new staff.

That being said, all the other Barbarian goodies (especially the self healing), almost certainly outweigh the crit profile bonus from t5 acrobat.

The crit profile from acrobat is equivalent to the barbarian one if you use the appropriate sticks. In addition, barbarians get a lot more bang for their buck in enhancements.

I might actually roll one of these in a PDK next life, I'll think about it.

Thrudh, mind if I keep the discussion in this thread?

I think what could work is a barbarian with Maul for regular fights and then switching to staff for boss beat downs.

[BigErkyKid]

Sireth w/Staff Spec is a significant DPS boost over barb 18 b/c Pulverizer doesn't work w/Sireth. For other staves, though, it's more of a wash DPS-wise (assuming LD); and I agree the free self-heals from barb are a pretty nice perk, esp. on a build with high doublestrike (Quick Strike + Lightning Mace) and +15% atk speed (lots of extra hits means lots of extra Blood Strength procs).

See my reply above. If you want a barbarian with stick, you shouldn't use surety IMHO.

I think that using a good barbarian stick you are superior to a deeper rogue splash.

However, for trash, i would not use staves. They are weaker in AOE.

[Thrudh]

Ooh... elemental bloom looks nice

Rog 5+ staff build:
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 (Staff Spec) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (OC+Dev Crit)


Although, with that staff, going more barb (Ravager Focus) might be worth it...

Rog 2/barb 18 build (Crit Rage+Death Frenzy):
19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x3 (Pulverizer) --> 15-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 13-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x3 19-20/x6 (OC+DC+DF)

13-18 x3 is worth more than 15-18 x4 (say base 100 damage, 13-18 x3 equals 1800 damage, 15-18 x4 equals 1600 damage)

Where Thrudh went wrong on his math in assuming that the crit profile was better for Barbs was counting the base 1x damage that you would have gotten if you hadn't gotten the crit. This puts more weight on the expanded crit range (though lower multiplier) of the ravager in his calculations, because he isn't counting the whole d20, just the rolls that give crits.

Ah, good point... I showed 1800 damage with the 13-18 x3 compared to the 1600 damage 15-18 x4... but forgot to add in 200 for plain old hits on 13-14 for the 15-18 x4 guy.

So really they are pretty much equal.

So from a critical profile perspective, Acrobat is still the best bet. That being said, all the other Barbarian goodies (especially the self healing), almost certainly outweigh the crit profile bonus from t5 acrobat.

Probably... Acrobat does get No Mercy though... That's 30% extra DPS against helpless, instead of Ravager's Bully (which only does 15% extra DPS).

Plus, No Mercy is a T4 ability, and only costs 3 AP total, while Bully is a T5 ability (so you have to spend a lot to get there), and then it costs 6 AP after that...

[Thrudh]

It is even more damage with 18 barb, seems like a no brainer :P

How does No Mercy change the numbers? 30% more DPS against helpless, which most of my opponents are (I'm a tactics build).

I still expect barb does more DPS over all, but there's some utility with 5+ levels of rogue, which is useful, and I don't think the DPS is way out of whack (talking about staff builds)

I wonder if I could fit in No Mercy (T4 Acrobat), and still grab Crit Rage from Ravager... (AND maybe Bully too - I'm assuming it stacks with No Mercy)

I'll run the numbers tonight...

[Thrudh]

Also, a lot of these calculations assume we're in the LD epic destiny and using Pulverizer.

The Rogue Staff Spec build has an advantage if you're leveling up other EDs, or karma in other spheres.

[BigErkyKid]

Also, a lot of these calculations assume we're in the LD epic destiny and using Pulverizer.

The Rogue Staff Spec build has an advantage if you're leveling up other EDs, or karma in other spheres.

Yes, this would be for martial PLs.

The biggest problem that I see with the rogue is that it basically kills your self healing if you rage. There reason is that you cannot take t5 enhancements from barbarian.

But if you don't rage, why so many barbarian levels? A paladin / rogue would be better.

[Thrudh]

Yes, this would be for martial PLs.

The biggest problem that I see with the rogue is that it basically kills your self healing if you rage. There reason is that you cannot take t5 enhancements from barbarian.

But if you don't rage, why so many barbarian levels? A paladin / rogue would be better.

Well, there's Cocoon and Consecrated Ground for self-healing in epics... Also silver flame pots... I'm pretty old school when it comes to barbarians... I'm still used to playing them like the old days when they had no healing... My tactics is what I used.... Stunned and tripped mobs don't hurt me...

But this guy is fairly new to epics since I TRed him, and I haven't run much epic elite with this build yet... Still working on getting enough fate points to get my twists higher.

[BigErkyKid]

Well, there's Cocoon and Consecrated Ground for self-healing in epics... Also silver flame pots... I'm pretty old school when it comes to barbarians... I'm still used to playing them like the old days when they had no healing... My tactics is what I used.... Stunned and tripped mobs don't hurt me...

But this guy is fairly new to epics since I TRed him, and I haven't run much epic elite with this build yet... Still working on getting enough fate points to get my twists higher.

Ah well! If you are going old school things change. This is an interesting point though that I don't think people discuss often in their build threads.

There are builds to do ePLs and farming karma and there are min maxed end game builds. Sometimes they do not coincide and then people get dissapointed when what seemed like an uber build falls short and sometimes just sucks in the leveling process.

My take is that for an end game build I'd go 18 barbarian / 2 rogue with blunt IC and sticks (new ToEE and estar commendations) to beat bosses and orange named mobs (individual mobs in general when grouping). For general purpose questing I'd probably go with a maul.

[Thrudh]

Found out I can afford both Bully AND No Mercy...

So maybe 4 levels of Rogue on a barb staff build is better than 18/2... And if you're going to get 4 levels of rogue, might as well get 5, so Staff Spec is at least an option...



Ravager with a little Acrobat gives more DPS (Nice to get Bully AND No Mercy - 15% and 30% extra damage against helpless) but that definitely is VERY tight, AP-wise, leaving very little for anything else. You lose Ear Smash, which is a no-save tactic... hurts to lose that. You also lose Dimension Door.


Enhancements:

Ravager

• Furious Rage
• Pain Touch
• Demoralizing Success
• Pain Touch
• Power Attack (3/3)
• Hardy Rage (3/3) +3 CON while raging
• Do you Like Pain (3/3) - 60% chance for negative 10 to enemy AC
• I like Pain (3/3) - change to get 150 temp hp
• I Hit Back (3/3) - 20% chance to deal 6d8 bane damage
• Bully (3/3) - 15% damage to helpless
• Action Boost - Melee Power (3/3)
• Slaughter (3/3) - 10W attack
• Laughter (1/1) - Stacks of Fury, 10 melee power
• Strength +1 (1/1)
• Strength +1 (1/1)
• Crit Rage (2/2)
• Blood Strength (1/1)

= 40

Thief Acrobat

• Staff Control
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Thief Acrobatics (3/3) - 15% attack speed with q-staff
• Acrobat Staff Training (1/1)
• Haste Boost (3/3)
• Trip Focus (3/3) - +3 to Trip DC
• Quick Strike (3/3) - 25% doublestrike
• Strength +1
• No Mercy (3/3) - 30% damage to helpless opponents

= 25

Frenzied Berzerker

• Die Hard
• Frenzied Toughness
• Death Frenzy
• Extra Rage (2/3) - 4 extra rages
• Power Rage (2/3) - +2 Strength when raging
• Sprint Boost (1/3)
• Extra Action Boost (1/3)

= 11

Human

• Skill Boost
• +1 Strength
• Damage Boost

= 4


Comparing 18/2 and 15/5 barb/rogue.... Looking at the numbers, it is VERY tight to get Ravager Crit-Rage, AND Death Frenzy from Frenzied Berzerker on an 18/2 build... so much so, that you only have 10 APs left, which isn't enough to get Quick Strike (25% doublestrike) and Thief Acrobatics (15% attack speed with staffs).. and of course you want Human Damage boost as well...

Might have to give up Bully to fit those in, so now the 18/2 build misses out on the 15% helpless AND the 30% helpless... but the 15/5 can fit both of those in...

But the 18/2 gets Death Frenzy which is pretty huge with 10 melee power, +4 STR, 4d6 damage, +1 crit on 19-20..... That probably beats 45% extra damage against helpless... maybe... well for sure against bosses...

But then throw in that the helpless damage is passive, and Death Frenzy is a 1-minute clickable (ugh), and that makes me lean towards 5 levels of rogue again (plus the sweet trap skills, Dimension Door, maybe Vault)

I'd say the devs did a very good job since both options are pretty good...