Meditating Class Design - Monks

[Tinco]

Hey!

Since Turbine is on a spree to tackle class balance, I'd like to start a thread about Monks. Yeah, I know a lot of preconceptions are that monks are OP, and as I can see, Monkchers are in a decent place, but the 12+ Monk as an unarmed fighter is not. The latest system updates either introduced even more M.A.D. (Harper) oder completely went by the Fistomancer (Armor Up). So what's wrong with the combat style itself, the class features and the enhancement trees?

1. Combat Basics:

Monk unarmed combat relies on several conerstones, most prominently the use of handwraps and pajamas. There are two primary ways to build, either WIS-based for tactics, or STR-based for more damage. He's always using TWF and is offensively strictly STR-based, it's not possible to use any other stat for damage with handwraps.

a) Handwraps: TWF is the forgotten combat style, as many people have noticed. Rangers, Rogues and Monks suffer from its inadequacy compared to SWF/THF the most. There needs to be an update to the whole style and seeing ranger and rogue passes in the near future, I'm decently sure this one is on the dev's agenda. Handwraps themselves still don't work with various enhancements/feats/enchantments and need more love looking at their very bad scaling behavior (20/x2 crit).

b) Pajamas: The protection that went from Hero to Zero. Since unarmed monks can't really build dex-heavy, the unlimited bonus to AC is not particularly helpful. No MRR/PRR at all, and the last eye-opening piece of gear in that slot was the Spider-Spun Caparison from years back. Only Earthstance and the (ab)use of many displacement-clickies provide any survivability toe-on-toe.

c) Tactics: Stunning Fist is working great in all content, but that's pretty much it. QP has been slaughtered and Kukan-Do suffers from Cha-to-DC in harder EE's.

d) Ki-Strikes/Finishers: Well, those have been abandoned in mid-heroics. Their contribution to damage is (for the most part, Iron fist scales well) sad in the bigger picture. This system either needs a heroics-only-tag or an overhaul, the buffs are short and small, the DC-based ones are useless.

e) Stances: For Melee, there's one stance. All relevant defensive bonuses are tied to Earth, the best offensive bonus is there, too. It's a pretty illusionary choice at the moment, other stances need something to make them interesting and Turbine should untie the PRR-enhancements from Earth to any.

f) Self Healing: Again, lost in heroic scaling, effectively there's no self-healing later on. Triple-Pos-Finisher is a drop in the ocean and locks you out of IF-Spam.

g)Boss Damage: For a WIS-build? Ahahaaahaaaa. I shamelessly admit using Tree, otherwise it's just not there.


2. Class features:

...of which the monk has many, some awesome, some not so much. I want to pick the biggest offenders in this section. The most glaring problem at the moment is, that after level 12, the monk is completely done. QP extended the life of the tactician to level 15/16 or even 20, but we all know how that story went. To it:

a) Level-Scaling AC-Bonus: Not up to defensive standards anymore. AC is pretty much an abandoned game system and the monk direly needs some PRR somewhere. Here's the place for it in my opinion.

b) Quivering Palm: Once the joy of the tactician, now relegated to try-try-try-kill. The stacking mechanic on miss is atrocious, the DC a disaster. While I somehow saw a nerf coming back then, you pulled the stunt of giving out a skill-based instakill not much later. This iconic ability needs to be reinstated for the pure and 15+ monk and it should work if you go all-out wis+tactics.

c) Shining Star: This could be awesome for the pure monk, sadly the DC is bad. Off-Stat, no additional scaling, that's it. Why not simply make it a no-save dance (Otto's irresistible) once you invoke our funk-heroes Earth, Wind & Fire?


3. Enhancements:

The Monk trees are a mess. I don't even want to go into the enhancements itself mostly, because even musing over the basic concepts is enough.

a) The Henshin Mystic: HM is a walking T5 for stick builds, anything that should make the HM's flavour is not working past GH Heroic. The spell scaling is not there, the clickies are worse versions of the Thief-Acrobat. This tree should have been and could be the brother of the Eldritch Knight, a hybrid between spell damage and staff combat. For that, especially the cores need a whole lotta love and direction.

b) Ninja Spy: This is the tree that is done best from a flavour and power perspective. It works well for throwers but lacks punch for melee. ToD is not what it used to be in Vale and Amrath, again a scaling issue. This tree could use a SB-treatment regarding Shortswords (Auto-Crit-Adjustment)

c) Shintao Monk: What is this tree even conceptually? A tank? A gimpy paladin? I don't know. I only know that the enhancements have bad dependencies, high costs and low DC's. Tankability is just not there, at least not nearly enough to stand your ground in EE's. The curatives are a joke nowadays and can easily be substitued with potions and low-UMD scrolls. Meditation of War's drawbacks for a non-pure monk are steep. The only direct offensive Bonuses in the whole tree are Empty Hand Mastery (~15 base damage at 28) and Deft Strikes (~5.5% more Damage). That's so bad that it's probably less than Holy Sword alone.

Happy Discussion, please keep it civil. Again, this is about 12+ unarmed Monk builds, not the monsters in the back of your head (the two-splash, the shuricannon or the monkcher).

[LavidDynch]

/signed

Like most classes that haven't got the latest 'Midas' touch by Turbine it just look plain outdated. At least monks excels with Mortal Fear (QP just PM'd me and wonder why it got nerfed in the first place).
I really wished that KI-strikes/comboswould add to DPS and by doing that you could un-nerf QP, as KI would once more be a factor for other things than just abundant step..
Monks should be complicated to play, and rewarded for doing it well.. (kinda like monkcher, I guess)

Violence Begets Violence should work like swashbuckling:
While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit

voilá! Shintao monks will have decent boss DPS.

[janave]

Yes, currently unarmed monks, esp after lvl18+ really need some tweaks.

But its a never ending "balancing" until the designers at turbine hq realize they have to fix the broken op stuff *first*, yes it means nerf the abused builds, i know its "sad" and a minor portion of them users might even be so upset to take several weeks off.

In the long run it would be
: less work for the dev team (balance CAN be done, just have to do it properly)
: better balance in the game (less people feel useless due to cheat builds turning otherwise difficult dungeons into a joke)
: better challenges in the game (less "omg!!! game too easy" threads)

and more...

[Blackheartox]

I agree what is said here, im primarly a monk player, monk has been my favorite button mashing class when it came out.
But sadly, nowadays if you want to build something unarmed you go with wolf.
Its stronger better and more useful sadly.

But lets leave that aside for a moment, i played alot with monks during the qpalm era, had my own builds, a pdk monk fighter fucusing primarly on qpalm.
Honestly the nerf is ok, a bit severe but it required a nerf, mainly because i had more dc as qpalm monk back then then as necro wizz with bursted dcs now.
If i remember correctly it was around 102-103 dc or so
It was extremeley out of ballance.
But wrongdoing has been done by totally eliminating that ability from ddo.
A slight nerf not to be able to stack items would had been enough.

Monk unarmed dps?
Well beside tree builds, it just isnt there, whirlwind is really good and fine the proc rate on mortal is amazing but that is not dps, its proc rate that doesnt work on red named.

Oh about tod, honestly i dont see that as a bad ability, with imp sunder and a sunder weapon you can in ee content bring down enemy fort save to the border line to land triple neg debuff finisher and your tod can then proc with sure hit chance for 750 damage, also it can multi proc, main hand offhand and doublestrikes, so basically it can land up to 3-4 times for massive burst dps.
I havent played a lv 28 unarmed monk myself with a thforged debuff pair of wraps, question does the vulnerability affect tods damage as well?
If yes, then that ability is in its correct place imo, do not forget that fact that you can still stun your target before using tod for even more damage, that ability is just fine

Issue with that is that it that most content recently is floded with undead...

[Eth]

Oh about tod, honestly i dont see that as a bad ability, with imp sunder and a sunder weapon you can in ee content bring down enemy fort save to the border line to land triple neg debuff finisher and your tod can then proc with sure hit chance for 750 damage, also it can multi proc, main hand offhand and doublestrikes, so basically it can land up to 3-4 times for massive burst dps.

...and by the time you pulled off your 10 button combo to kill a single mob the barbarian next to you killed the other 15 mobs by holding down Mouse1...

[Tinco]

If i remember correctly it was around 102-103 dc or so
It was extremeley out of ballance.
But wrongdoing has been done by totally eliminating that ability from ddo.
A slight nerf not to be able to stack items would had been enough.

Yeah, I'm not for restoring all former glory. Stunning fist DC should always be the staple of a tactics-build and that's fine. I really don't want sunder bonuses to QP, that would even be worse nowadays with the all-in-one Epic Boots of the Innocent. But - I'd really like to see general tactics bonuses work with QP, I'd gladly take a higher cooldown in exchange.

For ToD you are probably right, I have to admit that I haven't used it in a long time.

Mortal Fear - the latest and greatest brainfart in itemization - might haunt the game for a very, very long time. I don't want to include that in my musings, it's a topic of its own and basing a balance discussion around the last tier of the latest raid crafting that's only wearable at 28 doesn't seem proper.

[janave]

...and by the time you pulled off your 10 button combo to kill a single mob the barbarian next to you killed the other 15 mobs by holding down Mouse1...

lol

[Blackheartox]

...and by the time you pulled off your 10 button combo to kill a single mob the barbarian next to you killed the other 15 mobs by holding down Mouse1...

Hey im just saying its ok for 1 target dps as a ability lol.
But monks can somewhat abuse whirlwind for aoe.
Also a tree monk build has the same aoe rate, properly played even faster clearing capability then current barbs.
Issue is that you need to try hard to reach that point while barb really just holds 1 button and brags in achivment about his mad pro über gaming skills heh

[Eth]

Issue is that you need to try hard to reach that point while barb really just holds 1 button and brags in achivment about his mad pro über gaming skills heh

Yap, that's my main problem with what is melee now and why I don't play a melee anymore.
Not blaming anyone for playing what currently is simply the best, but it has honestly become a pretty boring playstyle (talking about paladins and barbs mainly).

[LavidDynch]

Hey im just saying its ok for 1 target dps as a ability lol.
But monks can somewhat abuse whirlwind for aoe.
Also a tree monk build has the same aoe rate, properly played even faster clearing capability then current barbs.
Issue is that you need to try hard to reach that point while barb really just holds 1 button and brags in achivment about his mad pro über gaming skills heh

A tree build does not have to be monk, a monk alone would make an extremly bad tree build. Besides... there isn't a single tree build in the achievement forums because the fact is: they aren't that great.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic with you evaluation of ToD, but if you are.. I bow down to you master! We are not worthy!

[Robbenklopper]

there are Things that leave pure Monks in the backyard:

Handwraps do fine, but the crit range and factor doesn´t reflect the threatening they really give.

As Long as it´s not possible to get a measurement System for dodge up to 100%, AC for a Monk (even rogue/ranger or whatever) is a mediocre scalement for defense. High AC on a Monk even with up-reflex is not compareable to my fighter S&B for defense.
His skills and abilities make him hard to be hit, and it´s my 72% from AC showing defense and my 28% dodge (+blur/+ghostly) But for Monk, the dodge value should be (for example) the 72% in defense and somehow 28% from AC

While looking at Monk, he´s not a DPS Maschine in my eyes like my THF-Fighter mowing the lawn, but he´s the man to disable/turn-off opponents, find their weak Points (like assasine) and instakill em. While the stuns are ok, QP is not a reliable Partner even at the highest Investments.

For Monks, *kick* is still missing for DPS, either as feat or enhancement. WWA can´t be representative for that.

PRR is ok, but MRR let´s me shake my head. High Reflex or SR can´t compensate in my eyes.

Stances Need an overhaul and should also represent even different ways of martial arts/weapons. For earth, unarmed is suitable but Monks do have more than just fist/shortsword/staff.
Choosing shintao for example, could open up WIS to hit/dmg for unarmed when going up in the core enhancements. An unarmed grandmaster of arts is trained to hit up to 8-times per second (maybe reserve for wind-stance).

Boss fights are and have been meeeh ...

My main is a Monk and i´m devoted to that class, but i recognize myself more on my THF and S&B fighters atm. Monk is still good to Play !
Just my few Nickels about the Monk-Situation.

[phillymiket]

Monk is my favorite class but now it's rendered useless.

The problem is that everything that made Monk special can be replicated with other builds that do better.
Bard took the fastest guy in town thing, Pally took all defense crowns.

The best move is Nerfing. The game is too power creepy.
But that won't happen and I don't want to hear the drama so forget I said that.
So, how to bump up Monk without increasing general power creep too much?

What were Monks strong points in the past?
Defense: great AC, great saves, tops in dodge,.
DPS: Best melee CC, Insta-death option. Best attack speed.
Utility: Speedy, jumpy, self-heals.

Devs need to pick a couple of things and make Monk king of those things again.
Speed? How can toons get any faster? Might as well leave it. This should be the Monks domain but Bard trumped and we can't trump again because of power creep.
PRR? Already to OP in game. Can't touch Pally and shouldn't try.
DPS? Fighter and Barb should be king of that.
CC? Monk is still good there. The problem is that everyone is good there. Fix the bug and Monk looks better again.

That leaves AC, dodge, self-heals, finishing moves, insta-death.

AC - Make Monks king of AC again since they can't get PRR up high.
Dodge - Give Monks (and Rogues) stance/enhancement options to make them the more Dodgy.
Self-Heals - Monks need options that don't become useless. Maybe Lesser Vamp and Vamp as enhancement options?
Finishing Moves - Remove them. Just make them moves that don't need prepping. If you do have a move that requires three strikes to prep than make it a really good move not some stupid de-buff.
Insta-Death - Make QP and ToD a good choice again. If touch of death is less damage than a single Crit by another class than there is a problem.
Stuff and thangs - Think up some neato attack or whatever to make Monks more better. For ex, make Monks be able to Center any weapon, like Kensai, on 5th Tier.

I think a key with buffing Monk is to make the good stuff available only if you have 12+ Monk levels.
If you can bump Dodge, AC etc with only a little Monk splash we will have major creep and that should be avoided.

[Blackheartox]

A tree build does not have to be monk, a monk alone would make an extremly bad tree build. Besides... there isn't a single tree build in the achievement forums because the fact is: they aren't that great.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic with you evaluation of ToD, but if you are.. I bow down to you master! We are not worthy!

No the reason is because people think tree builds are something that needs to stay hidden, dont want it nerfed and thus they dont post into achivment section.
They have more starting int then barbs, thats why they dont post in achivment section.
Monk builds are best tree builds.
And if people call a 12 monk 6 ranger 2 palie a monk, then i can sure as hell call a monk/Wizz or monk/cleric a monk as well.
And monk alone still makes a better tree build then a barb alone.

Tod as a single target dps ability is not bad, tod as a single target ability in recent content that is undead undead and undead is horrible and worthless.
As a stand alone ability it is powerful on correct builds, no im not even close to being sarcastic.
I actually played with it and was impressed how much damage it can output when you land your debuffs, and that was primarly in horns, since after that it became useless.
If new content shifts again to non undead it will become worth it again.
Issue with tod is that it is a t5 locks you out from shintao which has the best t5 /crit and empty hand for most monks.
Also kukan do has a very nice calculation formula so even on a mostly char dump monk its dcs arent that far behind stun fist.

What monks need, is raw unarmed damage boost and that isssue is very basic.
Its not as much a monk issue as it is 2 weapon fight feats issue, since the same issue is being held by rogues and rangers as well now

[Saekee]

/signed

Like most classes that haven't got the latest 'Midas' touch by Turbine it just look plain outdated. At least monks excels with Mortal Fear (QP just PM'd me and wonder why it got nerfed in the first place).
I really wished that KI-strikes/comboswould add to DPS and by doing that you could un-nerf QP, as KI would once more be a factor for other things than just abundant step..
Monks should be complicated to play, and rewarded for doing it well.. (kinda like monkcher, I guess)

Violence Begets Violence should work like swashbuckling:
While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit

voilá! Shintao monks will have decent boss DPS.

Your Dirk Jiggler looked pretty awesome in the vids you posted...

[Tinco]

A tree build does not have to be monk, a monk alone would make an extremly bad tree build.

Exactly. Tree is a band-aid because it provides almost completely class-independent DPS by playing it on the verge of an exploit, which is using WW and Cleaves to "cheat" the animation speed (which might or might not be intended, but w/e). Tree builds revolve around getting stacks as efficient as possible and have not much to do with monks in general.

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.

[Robbenklopper]

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.

I decided to run only in GMoF with a few exceptions, but it´s a fact that in LD he´s much more powerful. This should not be. And there are other classes who are better in LD.
EiN was fun for a while, but i don´t spend those 2 Points anymore for something that i have use of only every 5 minutes.

[LavidDynch]

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.

There should really be a +1-2 crit range/multiplier in that tree for unarmed fighting. 19/20 crit range on monks is just not solid vs +280k HP red named in this game.

[Monkey-Boy]

There should really be a +1-2 crit range/multiplier in that tree for unarmed fighting. 19/20 crit range on monks is just not solid vs +280k HP red named in this game.

That's a great idea.

[HastyPudding]

I rather like my pure shintao monk: plenty of healing amp allows for great self-healing with the healing curse, moderate front-line healing (good if you have a devotion item/augment), and great survivability. I don't like being pigeon-holed into earth stance, even though I enjoy the PRR/HP/threat (I actually tend to grab aggro on bosses against vanguards/defenders) and would probably go earth stance, anyway.

That being said, henshin mystic suffers from serious design flaws, especially regarding finisher damage/DC's, the finishers are weak in-and-of-themselves, and the lack of a wisdom-to-attack/wisdom-to-damage mod for quarterstaves. I mean, come on, wisdom is crucial to getting high finisher DC's, why not give it to them in their cores?. In my opinion, it's the worst enhancement tree in the game, because at least the rogue mechanic functions as it should, albeit weakly; henshin's effectiveness is lost somewhere between level 12 and 14.

[Zavier]

I rather like my pure shintao monk: plenty of healing amp allows for great self-healing with the healing curse, moderate front-line healing (good if you have a devotion item/augment), and great survivability.

I would have to agree with this 100%. My completionist, pure shintao in GOF has no issues with self healing or even group healing. I am having a hard time believing the complaints in this thread regarding healing, at least for light monks. Granted my healing amp is over 250, I have a ton of points in heal, wearing devotion and healing lore items, but my aoe heals usually are good for 400+ hp. I crit heal for over a 1000+hp...often. Am I going to keep a party up in an EE run? No. But for EH, it is good enough.

As for the rest of the long list of perceived weaknesses of monks, some of them might be true for someone who wants to run EE content only or are undergeared and underskilled. But for everything else, monks faceroll too, including soloing raids.

Not every class needs to be an easy button.