Weapon type for swashbuckler

[Rull]

OP was based on false assumptions. This is a rewrite:

I'm trying to find out what base weapon type is generally best to use for a swashbuckling bard. I am limiting the scope to no include racial and class preferences like a cha-based bind to shortswords or anything like that.

I am considering what weapon is best when you look at random loot and thunderforged crafted weapons. This is not a comparison between those and balizarde/brushhook/etc.

However, it is noteworthy that both Celestia and Mutineers blade benefit from improved critical piercing and therefore taking that feat has benefits
However however, they work fine for someone who took improved critical slashing as well. Since I consider them mainly undead beaters and elemental beaters (both heavily fortified), the importance of this benefit is somewhat reduced.

As for ballizarde, that one is keen so it is of no consideration whatsoever in determining what TF to craft and what IC-feat to take.

Let's compare the weapon stats:

Rapier/shortsword:     1d6;  82% crit profile;  piercing
Light Pick:            1d4; 102% crit profile;  piercing; worse critproc
Handaxe:               1d6;  82% crit profile;  slashing
Light Mace:            1d6;  82% crit profile;  bludgeoning

When I talk about crit profile, it's effective range x additional multiplier. The numbers come from https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...9-on-a-rapier) They are derived and also confirmed by Grailhawk?s numerical trial.

18/x3 has a range of 30%. Exploit Weakness increases this to 40.9%. the modifier is {+2} so per swing you deal on average 181.8% base damage.

Light Pick with his 19/x4 has a range of 20%. Exploit Weakness increases this to 33.84%. The modifier is {+3} so per swing you deal on average 201.5% base damage.
The main drawback that Light Picks have is that even though you get more damage from crits, stuff like Dragon's Edge and Crippling Flame proc less often.

But a huge factor is of course the destiny you are running:
Divine crusader: The extra range leads to +15% crit profile for Rapier/SS, LightMace and handaxe, but +21% for Picks
Dreadnought: +10% crit profile for Handaxe
Fury: bigger Adrenaline-crits on the Light Pick

              Rapier/SS x3   Kukri x3      Handaxe x3  Light Pick x4
Crusader      48%->97%       48%->97%    48%-> 97%    41%->123%
Fury          41%->82%       41%->82%    41%-> 82%    34%->102*%
Dreadnought   41%->92%       41%->92%    41%->102%    34%->112%
Other         41%->82%       41%->82%    41%-> 82%    34%->102%

For Fury of the wild, it's pretty clearly the pick. Here this 20% better crit profile combined with the fact that 400%dmg-adrenalines work much better on a x4 than on a x3 multiplier. The fact that it's just 1d4 and that it procs less on-crit effects don't stack up against that.

For Dreadnought:
Headman's chop bumps handaxes a nice flat 10% crit profile.
Anvil of thunder works (afaik) on rapier and handaxe, but not on mace or shortsword.
So it's between handaxe and picks in this destiny imo.

For off-destiny and leveling:
Handaxe, rapier/SS or Pick.
The choice is between:
- 1d6 / 7% more critprocs / slashing
- 1d6 / 7% more critprocs / piercing
- 1d6 / 7% more critprocs / bludgeoning
- 1d4 / 20% more crit damage / piercing
When not going for pick you still have to decide whether you want to be slashing, piercing or bludgeoning.

For Crusader:
With the extension of the crit range, the x4 multiplier of the pick gets slightly more interesting. If for off-destiny you thought it was close, this would push the pick. If for off-destiny you disliked pick, this may make you reconsider.


For me, the questions it mostly boils down to is: does the W-amplified extra base damage (combined with proccing on-crit more often) outweigh the superior crit profile of the pick?

And the other question is, which damage type do you prefer? Does the (small) benefit of the arguably better slashing damage outweigh the (small) benefit of doubling the crit range of your mutaneer's blade and celestia?

[Maelodic]

Thanks for the post!

I'll be running in a non-melee-esque destiny so the bonuses are pretty moot. I'll be picking up IC: Piercing for pre-thunderforged and will likely switch to handaxe later because handaxes are awesome.

I tend to care more for visuals instead of other things so I may not be the best guy to ask.

[WanderingGrump]

You might want to factor in Short Sword as well. Some folks use not just Thunderforged but Celestia or the Epic Envenomed Blade. While the TF weapons are better in general the named short swords have a place too for some content. Just something to consider in your calculations.

[gwonbush]

Here's the thing that will sway you: Celestial Champion's crit range increase stacks with Swashbuckling. As such, your two favored Destinies favor Light Picks more than any other weapon type. This makes it a question of the smaller crit range being worth the extra crit multiplier, which I think it probably is.

Another advantage for Light Pick is that it is Piercing, which is a type that is used by almost all good Swashbucklable weapons, making your feats a little easier if you go Pre-TF.

[unbongwah]

It sounds like light picks + rapiers are the winning combo. How does Balizarde compare to TF rapier?

[gwonbush]

Personally, I'd make a TF Shortsword over a Rapier. The reason is that they are identical in the hands of a Swash, but Shortswords play better with PDK and monks.

[Zoda]

For certain builds Forester's Brush Hook can be a very interesting choice in my opinion, as it gets by far the best crit profile. Ofc, it need a very high base damage mod, but I think it is workable.

Another thing to mention is Celestia with bastard sword proficiency, as it will act as bastard sword that way. Getting some glancing blow damage can be a big factor you can build around. You can take Perfect THF and twist in additional 10% glancing blow damage from FOTW.

[gwonbush]

Unfortunately, the best part about Celestia is broken by Swashbuckler enhancements.

[Ancient]

Personally, I'd make a TF Shortsword over a Rapier. The reason is that they are identical in the hands of a Swash, but Shortswords play better with PDK and monks.

This is the part that confused me about the original post. Throwing out all those numbers and ignoring what swashbuckler does to them. In the hands of a swashbuckler, all the base weapons come out the same other than light pick which has a smaller crit range and higher crit multiplier. The key variations are named weapons, light picks and racial/destiny weapon advantages.

I'm having a lot of fun on my PDK with shortswords and cha dmg. There was a good post about a dwarf using hand axes. Brush hook looks like a great fit with a strength/overwhelming crit build. There are lots of great choices, and I don't think the case can be made that there is a singular "best" choice.

[cave_diver]

Unfortunately, the best part about Celestia is broken by Swashbuckler enhancements.

What enhancement in swashbuckler breaks the Celestia?

[gwonbush]

What enhancement in swashbuckler breaks the Celestia?

The first Enhancement that breaks Celestia's light damage is the level 3 Core: Swashbuckling.

[Rull]

This is the part that confused me about the original post. Throwing out all those numbers and ignoring what swashbuckler does to them. In the hands of a swashbuckler, all the base weapons come out the same other than light pick which has a smaller crit range and higher crit multiplier. The key variations are named weapons, light picks and racial/destiny weapon advantages.

EDIT: WARNING, this has been falsified

Of course that is taken into account. Even though swashbuckler equalizes everything, the bonus on crit range is gives to accomplish this doesn't stack with the Celestial Crusader bonus on crit range.

A rapier without swash is 18/x2
A rapier with swash (+1 mult) is 18/x3
A rapier with crusader (+1 range) is 17/x3


A handaxe without swash is 20/x3
A handaxe with swash (+2 range) is 18/x3
A handaxe with crusader (+1 range) is STILL 18/x3 because it doesn't stack

I thought that much was obvious. All numbers include swashbucklng.

And yes I was talking about all other things being equal. A cha-based PDK could prefer swords, a dwarf dwarf weapons, a fvs his favorite weapons.

Sorry that was unclear. I still hope these numbers help people for who they are relevant to form an informed opinion.

[Xaxx]

I'll stick to rapier for general use

[gwonbush]

No, Celestial Champion stacks with Swashbuckling (though you have to reequip the weapon upon quest entry). This is because Celestial Champion is a Feat Bonus to crit range, while Swashbuckling is a Competence Bonus.

[cave_diver]

The first Enhancement that breaks Celestia's light damage is the level 3 Core: Swashbuckling.

Thanks

[Rull]

No, Celestial Champion stacks with Swashbuckling (though you have to reequip the weapon upon quest entry). This is because Celestial Champion is a Feat Bonus to crit range, while Swashbuckling is a Competence Bonus.

If this is true, my posted is based on false assumptions and I will remove it immediately.

[Rull]

If this is true, my posted is based on false assumptions and I will remove it immediately.

And... that seems to be the case. To my defense, I heard this was the case and I DID test it out myself first before posting here. I had missed the "you have to reequip the weapon upon quest entry" part in my testing.

Thanks so much for pointing this out.

[Zoda]

Unfortunately, the best part about Celestia is broken by Swashbuckler enhancements.

I have to disagree in this case. With the current endgame being what it is, Celestia does just fine without it's special damage type, getting glancing blow damage however on a Swashbuckler is far more interesting (celestia with bastard sword prof acting as bastard sword), especially if we talk about builds using LD (and we should as LD is still the premier DPS destiny for melees). With Perfect THF (which you can still pick up with full SWF line) and Wild Weapons twisted, a swashbuckler can reach 39% glancing blow damage, which might very well push it over the dps of TF crafted weapon in the hands of a character with high enough damage mod.

Now, I haven't made any math yet, but my guess is that the damage mod doesn't have to be extremely high, as Celestia is a pretty decent weapon on its own.

[Ancient]

Nice rewrite, this is now getting close to a guide quality reference!

Good job

It might be good to cover how the different racial stat damage modifiers play into the choice. Your post is making a convincing case for dwarf being one of the best dps choices for swashbuckler.