First ever caster, 18/2 sorc/pal or 16/2/2 sorc,rog,pal?

[F2PPremiumLeech]

Hi,
I am planning to build my first ever caster and could use hints / feedback on what I've thought so far. Here is what I have been thinking:

Race: human since I'd like to have the dragonmark of finding and that +1 skill point per level doesn't hurt either.

36 points spent in:
con 18
int 12
cha 18

I got +3 tomes on everything.

2 Paladin for saves.

Is it possible to add 2 Rogue for evasion and trapping?

Is int enough for trapping? Is 16 sorc "enough"? It leaves you out of 9th level spells and gives only 1 8th level one, how bad is this in relation to end game?

Which order should I take levels? 2 rogue immediately, then 2 paladin?

Where should I allocate skill points? Spellcraft and concentration are obvious choices. How much do I need in UMD? If it is viable to go for trapping, how much should I have in search/disable?

What feats should I take? Quicken, max, empower, what else? Are extend,heighten,enlarge useful?

Which spells should I focus on? I can probably get blood of dragons from GH favor at some point so I can change them later.

What enhancements should I take, as I've understood SLA's are where the power is?

Should I go for draconic or shiradi? Shiradi if only 16 levels of sorc and do damage by missile spam?

[unbongwah]

Is it possible to add 2 Rogue for evasion and trapping?

Yes, but you're going to want to shift a few more pts from CON into INT so you can afford to max out trap skills as well as caster skills.

Is 16 sorc "enough"? It leaves you out of 9th level spells and gives only 1 8th level one, how bad is this in relation to end game?

You also lose access to lvl 18 core enhs, Air Savant's being the most useful, IMHO (knockdown immunity). Personally I don't consider trap skills to be worth the sacrifice on a sorc; OTOH, Evasion can be worthwhile.

Which order should I take levels? 2 rogue immediately, then 2 paladin?

Usual suggestion: start rog 1, then take sorc to at least lvl 6, then stagger out your non-sorc lvls so you don't backload your spells too much.

[Loromir]

If you plan to spend alot of time in epic levels (especially in the new content) you will appreciate evasion. The power from the destinies will help make up for losing 4 sorc levels.

If you plan to TR soon after reaching lvl 20, then I would skip the rogue levels.

[F2PPremiumLeech]

If you plan to spend alot of time in epic levels (especially in the new content) you will appreciate evasion. The power from the destinies will help make up for losing 4 sorc levels.

If you plan to TR soon after reaching lvl 20, then I would skip the rogue levels.

The plan is to take it into epics. If I leave trapping out of the picture, should I replace rogue with 2 levels of monk? Then again UMD is a class skill for rogue. Can scroll healing levels of UMD be achieved with Monk easily without sacrificing other things?

Speaking of destinies, I presume I would need to take Ruin and Hellball as destiny feats? What about metamagic feats, which are useful and which not for sorc?

Now, which enhancement tree should I take, I presume fire savant first to get fireball SLA but what other things should I put points into? Is there anything in rogue (or monk) or pal trees that are of use?

[Tilomere]

If you plan to spend alot of time in epic levels (especially in the new content) you will appreciate evasion. The power from the destinies will help make up for losing 4 sorc levels.

If you plan to TR soon after reaching lvl 20, then I would skip the rogue levels.

As a first ever caster, he won't have any destinies filled out, and will be leveling them. Better go pure 20 sorc, then replace your split sorc's killing power on a subsequent life with some ED power.

[Lonnbeimnech]

With 2 pally on a cha based character your saves are going to be in the 70s, you can just walk through traps.

But really I agree with this.

As a first ever caster, he won't have any destinies filled out, and will be leveling them. Better go pure 20 sorc, then replace your split sorc's killing power on a subsequent life with some ED power.

Just make a sorc that's a sorc.

[Cardtrick]

An 18/2 sorc/paladin has marginally less killing power than a pure 20 sorcerer, but much more survivability. The importance of high saves for survivability in epics is hard to overstate, and that's even more true on a first epic caster. It's unlikely that he's going to know where all the traps are and how to avoid them, or which particular fights he needs to prepare elemental resistances/protections/absorptions for in order to survive failed saves. He probably won't have the gear to give immunities and really push the saves to usable levels without Divine Grace. Better to have to take a few fights a little slower but be able to survive them.

[HGM-Chi]

No one is mentioning using 2 monk in place of the rogue levels? +2 feats and no need to worry about skill points in trapping stuff?

[unbongwah]

Can scroll healing levels of UMD be achieved with Monk easily without sacrificing other things?

Sure: 11 ranks + 8 epic lvls + 4 Gtr Heroism + 2 luck + CHA mod = a lot!

Speaking of destinies, I presume I would need to take Ruin and Hellball as destiny feats?

Ruin is a lvl 27-only epic feat; Hellball is a lvl 28-only ED feat.

What about metamagic feats, which are useful and which not for sorc?

Typical caster feats: Emp/Max/Heighten and at least one Spell Focus (usually Evocation) to open up the DC bonuses in Magister & Draconic. You've already mentioned Finding DM; that leaves 3 heroic and 3 epic feats to tweak things. Some options: extra metas like Extend, Quicken, and Enlarge (if you take a FvS splash, consider Emp Heal + Rejuv Cocoon for self-healing); GSF & ESF:Evo for +2 DCs; Mental Toughness x3 for extra SPs & +3% crit chance; Ruin; survivability bonuses like Toughness, Dodge, FoP, etc.

Now, which enhancement tree should I take, I presume fire savant first to get fireball SLA but what other things should I put points into? Is there anything in rogue (or monk) or pal trees that are of use?

On a pure or mostly-pure sorc, I would say: primarily Fire savant for leveling, then switch to Air savant @ lvl 12 (Wind Dance), with decent Force / untyped spellpower as a backup. Unless you plan a FvS splash like the Scorcher, in which case you'll want to stick with Fire/Force combo as your primary spells.

As a first ever caster, he won't have any destinies filled out, and will be leveling them.

Not necessarily: OP is TRing from at least 2 past lives, so who knows how much time he's spent grinding EDs already?

[F2PPremiumLeech]

No one is mentioning using 2 monk in place of the rogue levels? +2 feats and no need to worry about skill points in trapping stuff?

This seems very good point, I totally forgot those extra 2 feats.

Sure: 11 ranks + 8 epic lvls + 4 Gtr Heroism + 2 luck + CHA mod = a lot!

Typical caster feats: Emp/Max/Heighten and at least one Spell Focus (usually Evocation) to open up the DC bonuses in Magister & Draconic. You've already mentioned Finding DM; that leaves 3 heroic and 3 epic feats to tweak things. Some options: extra metas like Extend, Quicken, and Enlarge (if you take a FvS splash, consider Emp Heal + Rejuv Cocoon for self-healing); GSF & ESF:Evo for +2 DCs; Mental Toughness x3 for extra SPs & +3% crit chance; Ruin; survivability bonuses like Toughness, Dodge, FoP, etc.

Not necessarily: OP is TRing from at least 2 past lives, so who knows how much time he's spent grinding EDs already?

Thanks for the feat breakdown, very helpful. I indeed have access to every destiny, back when cap was 25 I grinded out ED's to at least get access to everything, I currently have level 2-1-1 twists of fate slots open for this character.

So by going 2mnk/2pal/16 sorc I presume Ruin and Hellball can somewhat compensate the loss of 9th level spells? I really would like to have that evasion, I have another 3rd life melee character who for the first time has evasion and I am just blown away how amazing it is compared to previous non-evasion melee builds.

[Cardtrick]

So by going 2mnk/2pal/16 sorc I presume Ruin and Hellball can somewhat compensate the loss of 9th level spells? I really would like to have that evasion, I have another 3rd life melee character who for the first time has evasion and I am just blown away how amazing it is compared to previous non-evasion melee builds.

Losing 9th level spells really isn't a big deal on a sorcerer. They're so expensive you wouldn't cast them much anyway.

The real shame is that you can't also take 2 favored soul. "Just Rewards" is an absolute game changer for a fire/force sorcerer. It's like infinite free SP. It's easy to get your fire/force critical chance high enough that casting some low level spells actually gain you more SP than they cost on average. But if you drop the 2 monk, you lose evasion. And if you drop the 2 paladin, you reduce your saves to the point where evasion doesn't do much good without excellent gear -- no point evading if you're only saving when they roll a 1. Personally, I prefer to drop the monk levels and lose evasion, and go with 2 fvs / 2 paladin; you lose some survivability, but the improved critical chance / spellpower and the ability to basically run forever without shrining is well worth it to me.

[unbongwah]

I wish Primal Avatar was a lot stronger for a caster; then you could do sorc 16 / pal 2 / FvS 2 and pick up Evasion from PA's Natural Evasion.

[F2PPremiumLeech]

I've been playing with character planner a bit and hit a bit of a problem concerning what to take as a first level.

If I start with Monk:
One feat goes to Dragonmark , other is human bonus feat and I don't see anything really useful available for caster, some feats that give +1 or +2 to IMO useless skill checks or saves (which seems a waste since that what pal splash is for).

Then there is monk class feat to choose with following available:

diehard
discipline
iron will
lightning reflexes
stunning fist
toughness

Dodge requires 13 dex that I don't have so I guess only choice would be toughness?


If I go pal first, then I could pick Dragonmark and spell focus evocation at first level. (and pal class feat)

1 pal
2-7 sorc
8 mnk
9 mnk
10 pal
that way evasion and saves by level 10
firewall and fireball sla at level 12

Since that leaves me behind at caster levels, should I pick heighten early? Maximize at 3rd and heighten at 6th level? Quicken at 9?

This leaves me with those 2 monk feats, toughness both times?

edit:
I guess I could go with dex 13,con 17, int 10, cha 18 , start with monk and choose dragonmark, dodge and mobility at first level,then again, that gives 1 less skill point per level. Are dodge & mobility worth it on sorc?