Tanking Goals

[Havok.cry]

Would someone help me out. I have never played an end game tank and would like some help, not with the build at this point, but with what I should be striving for on the build. At this point I am just gathering information so I can make decisions on my own based on what I learn. I would like to fill in the answers to these questions so this can be used as a guide for those whom it would help. In fact, if I can get enough support for this I would like to use it to make a guide for newbie tanks out of this thread.

Here is what I am looking for:
What is the auto pass intimidate number for anything in game currently? LoB at 104
What is the LoB auto pass intimidate number? 104
How much is enough threat amp? Depends on build. Likely the more DPS you have given up, the more threat amp you need.
How does threat amp stack (is it like heal amp)? Insufficient Information available to the player base on this issue.
How much PRR do you need? 120-140 beyond 140 cost outweighs benefit
How much AC do you need? Irrelevant for end game EE as mobs will almost always auto hit anyway. 100+ for heroic raid bosses.
How do you get to dodge cap:
-in pajamas?
-in light armor?
-in heavy armor?
Do tower shields effect dodge cap? Yes, max dex bonus on the tower shield effects the dodge cap.
Can you get by losing PRR for AC or visa versa? Opinion. Some say AC is irrelevant, others advise keeping it balanced. Likely depends heavily on build.
How much is the minimum heal amp needed? If human/helf/paladin max out the enhancement lines. If you have what it takes, get 3 paladin past lives.
What kind of HP numbers do I need to be hitting to be viable? 1200 is sufficient, 1700 is where the boss will be complaining about your HP.
What range do you need reflex to get to if you have evasion? 70+
-if you do not have evasion? 70+
What do you need to get your fortitude save to? 70+
Is will save even relevant assuming the standard caster buffs?
What do you need to get your will save to if you do not have the standard caster buffs or if the answer to the last question is yes?
Assuming Light armor and evasion, what do you slot where?
Assuming pajamas and evasion, what do you slot where?
Assuming heavy armor and shield, what do you slot where?
Where do you slot intimidate gear, and what else do you use to get your intimidate score where it is needed? Epic Brawn's Spirits as a swap item
What debuffs currently work on bosses:
-feat? Improved Sunder
-enhancement? Improved Sunder Enhancements, Vulnerability from various class enhancements
-spell?
-other?

Edit: Further questions raised:
How much DPS do you need to do minimum while tanking?
-while not tanking?
Is spell damage increased by threat amp?
Do you calculate any available spell damage you have into your DPS?
-If so, how do you calculate spell DPS?
--or do you just guestimate based on spell damage, cooldown, and button rotation where applicable?
What other contributing options do you have when not tanking besides DPS?

What bugs should I be looking out for in tanking:
-gear? Too much threat gen can break your threat gen.
-feats?
-enhancements?
-other?
--Sword and Board attack chain animation has a part that moves the character in a small hop.
--Aggro tables do not always function as they should.

Semi-related questions:
Do cleaves proc:
-doublestrike? Yes
-offhand? No
-shield bash? Yes
Do THF procs proc:
-doublestrike?
-offhand? No
-shield bash?
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Thanks to Nightmanis for this Double strike breakdown:
Doublestrike:

30% Action Boost (Druid, t2, Nature's warrior)
25% Block and Cut (t5 Stalwart attack, 10 sec uptime with 20sec cooldown)
8% Improved Shield Mastery
8% Skirmisher's Bracers OR
15% First Blood (one or the other)
5% Perfect TWF
3% Black Dragon bonus (Black dragon armour set)
4% Strike with no thought (Kensai core t3)
7% Legendary Shield Mastery


90% with Skirmisher's
97% with First Blood

Only thing I would add to this is that a Druid 9 can get natural attack feat, which gives 6% doublestrike, and stacks with itself three times. I am not sure if it does not stack with anything on that list though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to Feithlin and others for this:

AGGRO MANAGEMENT
Self Management-
Your main job is to maintain aggro and to recover it quickly if you loose it. Now, the threat generation needed to keep aggro is highly dependent on the group you run with, and on its discipline. If a member starts directly with an adrenalined manyshot, you will loose aggro for example. The important thing is that threat is a multiplication of your dps, so the less DPS you have, the more you need threat generation. Intimidate can be used both to maintain aggro (it give a boost to threat generation) and to recover it if you loose it, so you will have to evaluate every situation (it depends on the group, but also on the boss).
Group aggro management-
It is important to communicate with the group about your capabilities in maintaining aggro. If you need some time to build aggro before the group piles in, say so. If they can jump right in and you can handle it, say that too. just make sure everyone is working with each other to get the job done.

HEALING AMP
Basically, you need what is required to keep you alive for the duration of the fight. So, again, it will depend on how much damage the boss is doing, how much you can mitigate, and on the healing dedicated to you. Note that this dedicated healing could be null i.e. that you may be expected -- in some groups and in definite difficulties -- to maintain yourself.

DAMAGE MITIGATION
Right now, AC is efficient when you don't need it, and isn't anymore when you would need it. So you might as well forget about it.
Your physical damage mitigation will be based mainly on in-corporeality, dodge (to prevent taking damage) and PRR (to reduce it when you're hit). A good target for PRR is above 100. Since there is diminishing results for PRR, it isn't necessarily advisable to sacrifice too much for it.
However, most bosses do their main damage through spells: so you need good saves. Reflex saves of 70 seems to be a good target atm. Now, you can (should) also take absorption items into account. While Evasion is a great tanking tool, you need to save for it to be useful.

[maddmatt70]

Oh man tanking has become so incredibly complicated in DDO. I could probably write a 10 page article on it. Turbine should simply tanking somewhat or do something quite honestly because it has gotten a little absurd.

There should also be a couple of things added to your list about how much dps to have and about other useful features besides dps when not tanking. These are both very essentiall in DDO because a tank spends the majority of their time in DDO not tanking. There are some tanks that are a serious waste of space in the majority of content (my twf tank right now feels this way, but need a bit more gear to make certain).

Off the cuff one of the hard fast rules about tanking is there are many ways to arrive at the same solution which is mitigating the amount of damage or avoiding the amount of damage taken. Maintaining aggro there are also varies techiniques for that as well.

[Havok.cry]

Oh man tanking has become so incredibly complicated in DDO. I could probably write a 10 page article on it. Turbine should simply tanking somewhat or do something quite honestly because it has gotten a little absurd.

There should also be a couple of things added to your list about how much dps to have and about other useful features besides dps when not tanking. These are both very essentiall in DDO because a tank spends the majority of their time in DDO not tanking. There are some tanks that are a serious waste of space in the majority of content (my twf tank right now feels this way, but need a bit more gear to make certain).

Off the cuff one of the hard fast rules about tanking is there are many ways to arrive at the same solution which is mitigating the amount of damage or avoiding the amount of damage taken. Maintaining aggro there are also varies techiniques for that as well.

Edited the OP with a few more questions. I would be happy to turn this into a ten page Guide on tanking, but being inexperienced, that won't happen soon on my own. Any time you are willing to spend answering questions, as detailed and exhaustively as you can, would be very, very appreciated and invaluable to me.

[Feithlin]

Some of your questions should be formulated in a different way:

AGGRO MANAGEMENT
Your main job is to maintain aggro and to recover it quickly if you loose it. Now, the threat generation needed to keep aggro is highly dependent on the group you run with, and on its discipline. If a member starts directly with an adrenalined manyshot, you will loose aggro for example. The important thing is that threat is a multiplication of your dps, so the less you have dps, the more you need threat generation. Intimidate can be used both to maintain aggro (it give a boost to threat generation) and to recover it if you loose it, so you will have to evaluate every situation (it depends on the group, but also on the boss).
I think the highest intimidate DC is still eE LoB (104 iirc).

HEALING AMP
Basically, you need what is required to maintain you alive for the time of the fight. So, again, it will depend on how much damage the boss is doing, how much you can mitigate, and on the healing dedicated to you. Note that this dedicated healing could be null i.e. that you may be expected -- in some groups and in definite difficulties -- to maintain yourself.

DAMAGE MITIGATION
Right now, AC is efficient when you don't need it, and isn't anymore when you would need it. So you could as well forget about it imo.
Your physical damage mitigation will be based mainly on incorporeality, dodge (to prevent taking damage) and PRR (to reduce it when you're hit). A good target for PRR is above 100. Since there is diminishing results for PRR, it isn't necessarily advisable to sacrifice too much for it.
However, most bosses do their main damage through spells: so you need good saves. Reflex saves of 70 seems to be a good target atm. Now, you can (should) also take absorption items into account. While Evasion is a great tanking tool, you need to save for it to be useful.

BUILD
Your feats, gear, etc. will be what's needed to cover the above needs. There is no automatic answer.

[Scraap]

DAMAGE MITIGATION
Right now, AC is efficient when you don't need it, and isn't anymore when you would need it. So you could as well forget about it imo.
Your physical damage mitigation will be based mainly on incorporeality, dodge (to prevent taking damage) and PRR (to reduce it when you're hit). A good target for PRR is above 100. Since there is diminishing results for PRR, it isn't necessarily advisable to sacrifice too much for it.
However, most bosses do their main damage through spells: so you need good saves. Reflex saves of 70 seems to be a good target atm. Now, you can (should) also take absorption items into account. While Evasion is a great tanking tool, you need to save for it to be useful.

One thing to expand on for that that makes life a little bit easier: Shields (even tower shields) do not block evasion.

[Havok.cry]

One thing to expand on for that that makes life a little bit easier: Shields (even tower shields) do not block evasion.

This makes me wonder: do tower shields affect dodge cap?

[Havok.cry]

DAMAGE MITIGATION
Right now, AC is efficient when you don't need it, and isn't anymore when you would need it. So you could as well forget about it imo.

Would you explain this to me please?

[Feithlin]

This makes me wonder: do tower shields affect dodge cap?

Yes, up to MDB, though there are various enhancements to increase it.

[Feithlin]

Would you explain this to me please?

AC is efficient in eH and in some lower eE, i.e. when ennemies are not hitting very hard. On the other hand, when enemies are hitting like truck, this is when they will hit you 95% of the time, whatever your AC.

[Bowser_Koopa]

To explain the lack of real "need" for AC for a tank let me say I run a tank with ~187 AC as shown below and I still mean to tweak him further to improve saves and possibly AC too and new gear since my stalwart set is doing nothing for me but giving me 15% threat and 20% healing amp. Anyways versus anything that has to be "tanked" where it requires you have to swing and not just survive my AC does not stop Epic Elite Storm Reaver or the Truthful one which would lead me to believe it won't work in the 2014 raid with multiple bosses built for level 30's etc. I ran an EE VoN 5 yesterday and the warforged sentinels hit me around 70-80% of the time as well.

Short version is AC doesn't phase any "raid boss" that is worth tanking currently concealment and dodge and PRR serve much better to mitigate damage.

http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/ghallanda/bowserkoopa/

Bowserkoopa,

Too bad Eladarin is gone at least he would participate in threads like these and share mobs to hit etc with us sometimes.

[Havok.cry]

Okay, thank you for the explanation, on my way out from work and have a few stops, will update the OP about AC when I make it home.

For completeness, would anyone be able to answer:
Is AC useful for at level tanking of bosses in at level/bravery runs of heroic quests/raids before you reach the endgame?
If so what AC thresholds should you try to achieve for those instances?

[Nightmanis]

Would someone help me out. I have never played an end game tank and would like some help, not with the build at this point, but with what I should be striving for on the build. At this point I am just gathering information so I can make decisions on my own based on what I learn. I would like to fill in the answers to these questions so this can be used as a guide for those whom it would help. In fact, if I can get enough support for this I would like to use it to make a guide for newbie tanks out of this thread.

Here is what I am looking for:
What is the auto pass intimidate number for anything in game currently? LoB at 104
What is the LoB auto pass intimidate number? 104
How much is enough threat amp?Depends on the rest of the build. Are you something like the old DDD build, where you were more heavily dps specced than for all out defense? If so the threat you gain just from the basic stance will be plenty enough. If not, and you're more of a hitpoint junkie meatsack you might want to invest in a Epic Chimera's Fang and the Sentinel dragonmarks.
How does threat am stack (is it like heal amp)?You know, I doubt anyone can really answer this.
How much PRR do you need? 100+You would do fine with 120, but 140 is right about when the costs outweigh the benefits. Anything over that and you're just wasting your build.
How much AC do you need?People like to hit about 140+. I personally dropped it completely. I think I hit right about 100, but never actually bothered to check.
How do you get to dodge cap: I only hit about 14% sustained, but I've heard of tanks before U19 were in Light armour and using a heavy shield, had max dodge and some other pretty impressive numbers. I will say though, they were built for that and less than my build.
-in pajamas?
-in light armor?
-in heavy armor?
Do tower shields effect dodge cap?Yes. Like I said, if you can hit about 120 start working on other things. Pretty much the only reason I used a Heavy Shield is because it has no dex cap, unlike a Tower Shield.
Can you get by losing PRR for AC or visa versa?You want balance. Don't max out any one thing, because then you've dropped in another area. Try and keep everything at a level where you don't look at it and cringe. If you want high ac (I didn't, I dropped it for offense) then go for a reasonable number that won't negatively effect any other stat.
How much is the minimum heal amp needed? The Clerics all loved me because I had some really great heal amp. Honestly, just make sure you have stuff for it and if you go human at least get the first tier. I'm a hamp w.hore, but that's because it helps heal scrolls. If you have the wherewithal, 3 lives of paladin and then maxing out the human/helf heal amp is perfectly acceptable in the majority of situations. If you want more, wear the purple dragon gauntlets for another 30%.
What kind of HP numbers do I need to be hitting to be viable? 1200. Right around there is good for most tanking situations. If however you want to go all out and build a pure focused tank, go fighter and shoot for about 1400 ish. Some people have hit 1700, and others much higher. Once you're at these levels though, you have such a dedicated character that you may never end up actually playing them outside about 3 raids.
What range do you need reflex to get to if you have evasion? 70+
-if you do not have evasion? 70+
What do you need to get your fortitude save to? Same as reflex. High fort means less likely to be frozen by stuns and whathaveyou the bosses love to spam.
Is will save even relevant assuming the standard caster buffs?I like having it.
What do you need to get your will save to if you do not have the standard caster buffs or if the answer to the last question is yes?
Assuming Light armor and evasion, what do you slot where? Depends on the gear you want. This is an endless discussion which all ends up being opinion.
Assuming pajamas and evasion, what do you slot where?
Assuming heavy armor and shield, what do you slot where?
Where do you slot intimidate gear, and what else do you use to get your intimidate score where it is needed? I just used whatever I had access to. Honestly the best thing you could try for the Epic Brawn's Spirits, and just swap it in whenever you want to intimidate stuff.
What debuffs currently work on bosses:
-feat? Improved Sunder.
-enhancement? Stuff that improves Improved Sunder.
-spell?
-other?

Edit: Further questions raised:
How much DPS do you need to do minimum while tanking?
-while not tanking?
Is spell damage increased by threat amp?
Do you calculate any available spell damage you have into your DPS?
-If so, how do you calculate spell DPS?
--or do you just guestimate based on spell damage, cooldown, and button rotation where applicable?
What other contributing options do you have when not tanking besides DPS?

What bugs should I be looking out for in tanking:That freaking sideways hop thing that will never be fixed.
-gear?
-feats?
-enhancements?

Semi-related questions:
Do cleaves proc:
-doublestrike?
-offhand?Nope.
-shield bash?
Do THF procs proc:
-doublestrike?
-offhand?Nope.
-shield bash?

Shield bash seemed to proc off of anything offensive I did. Granted I didn't have any spells, but I seriously doubt they would work with that.

Comments in Red. Just as a disclaimer for anyone that disagrees with me, I hate having a character so heavily invested in a single part of the game. Hence why I was such a fan of the DDD style builds.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Okay, thank you for the explanation, on my way out from work and have a few stops, will update the OP about AC when I make it home.

For completeness, would anyone be able to answer:
Is AC useful for at level tanking of bosses in at level/bravery runs of heroic quests/raids before you reach the endgame?
If so what AC thresholds should you try to achieve for those instances?

I'm wracking my brain for any non-raid heroic quest that would need a tank...and I'm coming up blank. You could definate utilize a tank, but I cant think of a need for a tank.

For at level heroic raids, I can think of only those that need a tank in Epic atm, like LOB.

[Havok.cry]

Comments in Red. Just as a disclaimer for anyone that disagrees with me, I hate having a character so heavily invested in a single part of the game. Hence why I was such a fan of the DDD style builds.

Would you explain more about this sideways hop, I am not sure what you are talking about. First thing coming to my mind is active blocking and trying to move, but I am not sure you are referring to that.

In addition would you explain what a DDD style build is, as I am not familiar with that term. Is it something that has come since MotU? I took a break shortly after the first expansion and have only recently come back, maybe that explains my ignorance on this.

[Trillea]

Would you explain more about this sideways hop, I am not sure what you are talking about. First thing coming to my mind is active blocking and trying to move, but I am not sure you are referring to that.

In addition would you explain what a DDD style build is, as I am not familiar with that term. Is it something that has come since MotU? I took a break shortly after the first expansion and have only recently come back, maybe that explains my ignorance on this.

If you are sword and board, the full attack chain gives a little sideways hop after the 4th attack in the chain. I discovered this *after* I rebuilt my tank for S&B.....

As for the DDD, no idea what that means, unless it's Dodge, Displacement and Damage..

[Scraap]

If you are sword and board, the full attack chain gives a little sideways hop after the 4th attack in the chain. I discovered this *after* I rebuilt my tank for S&B.....

As for the DDD, no idea what that means, unless it's Dodge, Displacement and Damage..

One of many reasons I typically recommend the cleave-line. Interrupts the attack-animation-chain, can be used while blocking for minimum exposure, and heck, if you can hack a boss, odds are you can hack at least a portion of a room/play target-painter for a nuker. (Unfortunately, I can't recommend whirlwind attack until they revisit the animation timing there. Far too much delay.).

[Trillea]

I'm wracking my brain for any non-raid heroic quest that would need a tank...and I'm coming up blank. You could definate utilize a tank, but I cant think of a need for a tank.

For at level heroic raids, I can think of only those that need a tank in Epic atm, like LOB.

That heroic quest with the Marilith in the IQ on elite (where she attacks you right away) really needs a tank.

[Havok.cry]

I'm wracking my brain for any non-raid heroic quest that would need a tank...and I'm coming up blank. You could definate utilize a tank, but I cant think of a need for a tank.

For at level heroic raids, I can think of only those that need a tank in Epic atm, like LOB.

Well none of the heroic raids need a tank if you are running them with epic characters in the party. However if you are trying to get bravery bonus and are running them at level, I can only imagine that you would really really want a tank for raids like ToD, VoD, and Hound. If this assumption is wrong please set me straight.

[Havok.cry]

One of many reasons I typically recommend the cleave-line. Interrupts the attack-animation-chain, can be used while blocking for minimum exposure.

Would you please explain this further. Are you saying:
A-You can actively shield block and use the cleave/great cleave/(I assume)supreme cleave abilities without lowering your guard

or

B-You can actively shield block and use the cleave/great cleave/(I assume)supreme cleave abilities however your guard is lowered, but only like wand casting while actively blocking

or

C-something else entirely?

[Nightmanis]

Would you explain more about this sideways hop, I am not sure what you are talking about. First thing coming to my mind is active blocking and trying to move, but I am not sure you are referring to that.

In addition would you explain what a DDD style build is, as I am not familiar with that term. Is it something that has come since MotU? I took a break shortly after the first expansion and have only recently come back, maybe that explains my ignorance on this.

Yes, it's a build that's came out after the onset of MoTU. DDD stands for the Dire Defender Dreadnought. Essentially, it was a cleave-tarding sword and board build that took advantage of the large bonuses to Doublestrike that were granted in the expansion. I personally believe it works best with the bastard sword Nightmare, however the best alternative weapon was the Duergar Dwarven Waraxe. From a straight damage principle, the Waraxe is the clear winner with both the bonuses from Dreadnought and the overall damage properties of the weapon. However the Nightmare was so useful because of everything else on it. The whole point of the build was taking the offensive abilities we gained in the expansion, and applying them to a build with high defenses. When I was running mine, even when I was just S&Bing I was doing as much damage, or even more, than the Juggernauts in melee.

For Reference:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Duergar_Wara..._Weapon_Master

http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightmare,_the_Fallen_Moon

The sideways hop I mentioned has to be seen to be understood, more or less. During the attack chain, your third basic attack is a spin move that for some God awful reason hops you to the left each time. Like the other guy said, it's best to take the cleaves and alternate using them. Also you can get Supreme Cleave with only 3 levels of barbarian, which would potentially help this problem due to it's incredibly short cooldown and also because the only time this becomes a problem is when you're actually tanking a boss.

Also, for reference:

Doublestrike:

30% Action Boost (Druid, t2, Nature's warrior)
25% Block and Cut (t5 Stalwart attack, 10 sec uptime with 20sec cooldown)
8% Improved Shield Mastery
8% Skirmisher's Bracers OR
15% First Blood (one or the other)
5% Perfect TWF
3% Black Dragon bonus (Black dragon armour set)
4% Strike with no thought (Kensai core t3)
7% Legendary Shield Mastery


90% with Skirmisher's
97% with First Blood

Hope this assists you for any future reference.