Purple Dragon Knight Build Discussion

[samthedagger]

I am in no way experienced in the ways and means of the Fighter class, but I have decided to create one following the release of the Purple Dragon Knight iconic. So I'd like to gather some feedback from experienced Fighter players on what will make for a good Fighter. Now granted, the Purple Dragon Knight offers some new options, most important of which is probably the ability to use Cha in place of Str for attack and damage (as well as adding 1/3 of your Cha bonus to Tactical DCs).

Here is a tentative plan for how I want to build my PDK. The concept is Hate-Tank/Off-DPS. Advice is welcome.

Fighter 20

Str 14 +3 tome to qualify for Greater Two Handed Fighting
Dex 8
Con 18 +3 tome to qualify for Epic Toughness
Int 8 +2 tome at level 7
Wis 8
Cha 16 all level-ups here +7

Skills
Balance 7 ranks
Intimidate 23 ranks
Use Magic Device 11 ranks

Feats
H Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
1 Power Attack
F1 Force of Personality
F2 Cleave
3 Weapon Focus: Slashing
F4 Great Cleave
6 Improved Shield Bash
F6 Power Critical
F8 Improved Critical: Slashing
9 Stunning Blow
F10 Improved Sunder
12 Improved Two-Handed Fighting
F12 Greater Two-Handed Fighting
F14 Shield Mastery
15 Improved Shield Mastery
F16 Toughness
18 Weapon Specialization: Slashing
F18 Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
F20 Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
21 Epic Toughness
24 Bulwark of Defense
D26 Tactician
27 Blinding Speed
D28 Perfect Two Handed Fighting

As far as gear, I am looking at acquiring gear that increases Str, Con, and Cha as well as maximizing AC, PRR and Tactical DCs.

For Epic Destinies I am planning on using Legendary Dreadnaught with Brace For Impact and Legendary Shield Mastery from Unyielding Sentinel and Wild Weapons from Fury of the Wild.

For enhancements I will draw primarily from Stalwart Defender (capstone here), heavily from the Purple Dragon Knight racial tree, and dabbling in Kensai primarily to increase Tactical DCs.

[Raeaddil]

Hmm seems like a nice build. I'm trying it out now but it seems you missed the first two handed fighting feat. Other than that everything seems to work. I'm excited to try him out.

[unbongwah]

Toughness cannot be taken as a ftr feat. I also don't see THF. I consider Bulwark of Defense pretty blah, but since you don't have the STR for Overwhelming Crit, I'm kinda drawing a blank on what might be better. Seems a pity to go CHA-based and not have Divine Grace; but that costs you the capstone (+15% doublestrike), which is the main incentive for going past ftr 12.

[mezzorco]

Seems a pity to go CHA-based and not have Divine Grace; but that costs you the capstone (+15% doublestrike), which is the main incentive for going past ftr 12.

He takes SD capstone, not Kensei.



If you are a off-DPS, you should consider splashing 2 Pali for saves. A dead DPS is no DPS.

If you are a Hate-Tank, not splashing 2 Pali is a crime.

[Sokól]

He takes SD capstone, not Kensei.



If you are a off-DPS, you should consider splashing 2 Pali for saves. A dead DPS is no DPS.

If you are a Hate-Tank, not splashing 2 Pali is a crime.

^^ I agree with this statement

[ThomasHunter]

I've been reading up more on S&B builds mostly because the PDK comes out of the box as one! Way back, S&B was good. At some point, I remember that you simply had to take up a second weapon or go big weapons. Is S&B "back"? In other words, is this a legitimate build? Can a PDK S&B solo the new content (for example) on hard? Just curious as the S&B flavor has always been iconic (pun intended) to me. I'd love to build another - 5 years later (or so).

Thanks for the info!

[shibe]

How would this build go if using a dwarf or any other race?

[unbongwah]

Way back, S&B was good. At some point, I remember that you simply had to take up a second weapon or go big weapons. Is S&B "back"? In other words, is this a legitimate build? Can a PDK S&B solo the new content (for example) on hard? Just curious as the S&B flavor has always been iconic (pun intended) to me.

When I started playing DDO 4 years ago, S&B was gimp; "pajama" tanks (i.e., monk splash for WIS bonus to AC) had better AC and better DPS. Since then, Turbine has gradually improved S&B: Intim / threat bonuses from using a shield; Shield Mastery boosts doublestrike & PRR for better DPS and survivability; ftrs have gotten a number of S&B-specific abilities like Shield Striking and Block & Cut (the pally SD abilities are less interesting IMHO).

Unfortunately, U19 simultaneously nerfed S&B while buffing monks. The current "flavor of the month" is monk 6 / ftr 8: with Keen Edge & One w/Blade (T5 Kensei abilities, req's GWF), you can be centered with your Kensei focus weapons; Master Earth stance provides PRR (boosted by Iron Skin from Shintao) & +1 crit multiplier; while monk 6 lets you add Shadow Veil for 25% Incorporeality (I think 10% is still the most you can get from gear).

That said, you can still make a viable "classic" S&B tank these days; whether you should is another matter. But since you can't TR Iconics (yet), if all you want to do is level up and have fun and don't care what the minmaxers think of you, it should be fine.

How would this build go if using a dwarf or any other race?

The main difference is whether you switch to STR-based (since PDK is only one which gets +CHA to dmg w/swords); or, in the case of dwarves, go CON-based and use Throw Your Weight Around. My view is it makes most sense to stick with STR-based, at least with ftrs; it lets you add Overwhelming Crit for more DPS, for one thing. Going CON-based limits your weapon options and means you have to put at least 18 APs into dwarf tree for TYWA (more if you want Dwarf Fortress as well), which limits what you can do with other pts.

[Arlannis]

Unfortunately, U19 simultaneously nerfed S&B while buffing monks.

So, in what ways was S&B nerfed? I never really used it before the update, since everyone seemed to agree two weapons or spell implements was better, but when I checked out the PDK and played one a bit, it seemed to me like there were all kinds of enhancements intended to unnerf S&B. But since I didn't have pre-update experience to compare to, I have to assume I was mis-reading the situation.

What got better in the update, what got worse? For S&B, that is.

[unbongwah]

So, in what ways was S&B nerfed?

They lost some PRR, the higher-tier stance bonuses require S&B and cost more APs than SD did pre-U19, the doublestrike capstone is Kensei-specific (and to add insult to injury, they upped it from 10% to 15%), and there's this bug where if you change your weapon while S&B (even if you don't change your shield), you lose your bonus HPs from Greater Stalwart Stance. [E.g., say your base HPs is 500, so your max HPs in stance while S&B is 600; but if you switch weapons or swap in a scroll or whatever, you lose those 100 extra HPs and find yourself at 500/600 HPs after the swap.]

On the plus side, Stalwart Defender got Overbalance, Shield Striking (up to +15% shield bash chance - dunno if WAI tho), and Block & Cut (+25% doublestrike for 10 secs out of 20). I find Counterattack, Stand Fast, and Defensive Sweep to be pretty blah, tho; maybe if you could use them with other action boosts. But Sacred Defender didn't get any of those goodies; just boring bonuses to their aura & stance. Overall, I don't think the pros outweigh the cons...or if they do, I haven't found a clever way to exploit them.

Until Dwarven Defender or something similar comes along, I've toyed with pal 14 / ftr 6: that lets me get the survivability bonuses from pally I like + Zeal for +10% doublestrike; while picking up the S&B-specific bonuses I want from Stalwart (mostly B&C). It's not ideal - I have to give up higher-lvl ftr options like Power Surge - but I've yet to hit on a better idea.

I've also got a dwarf ftr 12 / pal 6 / monk 2 build (currently lvl 18) that I've been trying to figure out how to fix. Originally I wanted to stick w/S&B, but I'm not convinced I can make up the DPS loss. Though having Divine Might + Power Surge is nice for one's DCs; so maybe I should think of her as a tactics-oriented hate-tank and just live with so-so DPS.

[Arlannis]

On the plus side, Stalwart Defender got Overbalance, Shield Striking (up to +15% shield bash chance - dunno if WAI tho), and Block & Cut (+25% doublestrike for 10 secs out of 20). I find Counterattack, Stand Fast, and Defensive Sweep to be pretty blah, tho; maybe if you could use them with other action boosts. But Sacred Defender didn't get any of those goodies; just boring bonuses to their aura & stance.

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten that some of the S&B additions were limited to the fighter version. Now that you mention it, when I compared the two SD trees I remember thinking that the S&B Paladin would possibly make a better tank if working with a couple of other melee types who would fight close to him to benefit from the aura, but the S&B Fighter would win out almost any other time.

End result for the PDK is (as I see it), whether to make a Paladin with a Fighter splash or a Fighter with a Paladin splash. Almost any splash seems like an improvement over either a straight fighter with no healing, or a straight paladin.

(Perhaps I should add that I was not looking for a tank when I decided that, I was looking for a solo-capable build.)