FoT BOOM, Epic, Pugs, and Game Direction

[Charononus]

To start off I'd like to just touch on one of the big changes from u14 which is how epic was changed to four difficulties that opened up epic levels to the entire playerbase. While I would have personally tweaked some of the difficulty up on epic hard, I think the developers did probably the right thing on this and the different gear qualities for normal/hard/elite. It also represented a direction that game development to go and allowed you to take a pug into any content without having to screen players or know them first and still have a decent chance for success.

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it. This leads back to the system we had pre-u14 when epic raids were mostly guild/channel and if they were pugged they were screened to one extent or another.

This leads me to a question and a suggestion. Dev's was this the direction you wanted the game to take with the addition of eGH and FoT in particular? If not I'd like to make the suggestion that epic normal FoT be reverted to the pre-boom version with the drop rate items including commendations cut in half. This will lead to FoT becoming puggable again, but keep the elite from farming normal as the fastest way to get the gear that they want. Those that are casual or don't have access to guild/channel runs of FoT still get to run the raid and work on getting the gear just slower, and those that want the challenge and to farm the gear faster can do so. This seems to fit far better with the direction in game development you've gone in for the past year.

Edit* I don't think it needs to be total u17p0 on eNorm, the dragons and giants should revive at full health still rather than 25% or whatever it was before.

[Forzah]

Sounds reasonable to me.

While they're at it, they should also make epic hard more in between normal and elite for any quest to better target all audiences.

[moops]

To start off I'd like to just touch on one of the big changes from u14 which is how epic was changed to four difficulties that opened up epic levels to the entire playerbase. While I would have personally tweaked some of the difficulty up on epic hard, I think the developers did probably the right thing on this and the different gear qualities for normal/hard/elite. It also represented a direction that game development to go and allowed you to take a pug into any content without having to screen players or know them first and still have a decent chance for success.

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it. This leads back to the system we had pre-u14 when epic raids were mostly guild/channel and if they were pugged they were screened to one extent or another.

This leads me to a question and a suggestion. Dev's was this the direction you wanted the game to take with the addition of eGH and FoT in particular? If not I'd like to make the suggestion that epic normal FoT be reverted to the pre-boom version with the drop rate items including commendations cut in half. This will lead to FoT becoming puggable again, but keep the elite from farming normal as the fastest way to get the gear that they want. Those that are casual or don't have access to guild/channel runs of FoT still get to run the raid and work on getting the gear just slower, and those that want the challenge and to farm the gear faster can do so. This seems to fit far better with the direction in game development you've gone in for the past year.

Edit* I don't think it needs to be total u17p0 on eNorm, the dragons and giants should revive at full health still rather than 25% or whatever it was before.

This is already being pugged and completed quite a bit on EH, and I've even seen LFMS for EE since the change...

[Aeron1976]

/signed
It sounds like this would make FoT possible to complete in a PUG but not to easy (like it seems everybody is complaining nowadays) for the Vets, Top guilds etc

To this:

While they're at it, they should also make epic hard more in between normal and elite for any quest to better target all audiences.

I hope this does not happen, since afaik it was never the idea that hard is in-between N and E but (as i posted a few times before) more like this: if N=difficulty 1, then H=diffculty 2 and E=difficulty 10.

So the original idea was supposedly E is for the "best" only which I'm fine with even though it now only works on EE not Heroic E.

Stop calling for changes to the base mechanics, they would have to redesign ALL quests again to make it. We have enough bugs and unfinished changes that need to be addressed before.

If H is to easy for you, run them on E but leave the mechanics alone.

[Charononus]

This is already being pugged and completed quite a bit on EH, and I've even seen LFMS for EE since the change...

Might be a server difference then, I've seen 2 pugs for it since the change. Talking to people I knew that were in each, one was a total failure and a wipe, the other while it completed they said that the total pot count for the group was 100 sp potions to complete, which arguably might be a greater failure than the wipe.

[Forzah]

I hope this does not happen, since afaik it was never the idea that hard is in-between N and E but (as i posted a few times before) more like this: if N=difficulty 1, then H=diffculty 2 and E=difficulty 10.

So the original idea was supposedly E is for the "best" only which I'm fine with even though it now only works on EE not Heroic E.

Except that no-one plays normal now, since it's almost the same as hard with less xp and worse loot. The current systems gives no incentive to run a quest on anything other than hard and elite, which is a stupid design decision.

Stop calling for changes to the base mechanics, they would have to redesign ALL quests again to make it. We have enough bugs and unfinished changes that need to be addressed before.

If H is to easy for you, run them on E but leave the mechanics alone.

It's a matter of tuning some global settings - in theory this is simple. I still don't understand why current epic hard should be easier than old epics, while in the mean time character power has doubled.

[psykopeta]

turbine has some bipolar tendences, actually is kinda "everything soloable at least til epic hard" i mean, epic normal quests are a joke, pretty sure than elite heroic quests are harder(think about IQ for example), epic hard gives more xp than epic normal and mobs have almost same hp, the only difference is the bosses' hp

and epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic, and think now its easier than pre u17 EE

don't worry about the raid, so many cries in forum will nerf it soon, just give time to time

[Aeron1976]

Except that no-one plays normal now, since it's almost the same as hard with less xp and worse loot. The current systems gives no incentive to run a quest on anything other than hard and elite, which is a stupid design decision.

Tbh your obseravtion is wrong imo, I nearly never play on normal, you i guess, never play normal, BUT many newer ppl "need" normal still to get the way things work.

I can craft everything I need for my toons from lvl 1-20 and have quite a few stocked items i can equip on freshly made toons, also a few Million pp and scales and other tradeables .

But not everyone who starts this game now, not like 3(me) or 6(you) years ago, has these resources available.

And since it kind of became easier to get to lvl 20 (Tomes/Stones etc) the "learning" part comes now later in a toons life.

If you want a small idea how it is, create a lvl 1 toon on another server with no extra equipment whatsoever, you will probably see there is a need for norm, even thuogh your game skills may still make ite easier for you.

[Forzah]

Tbh your obseravtion is wrong imo, I nearly never play on normal, you i guess, never play normal, BUT many newer ppl "need" normal still to get the way things work.

I can craft everything I need for my toons from lvl 1-20 and have quite a few stocked items i can equip on freshly made toons, also a few Million pp and scales and other tradeables .

But not everyone who starts this game now, not like 3(me) or 6(you) years ago, has these resources available.

And since it kind of became easier to get to lvl 20 (Tomes/Stones etc) the "learning" part comes now later in a toons life.

If you want a small idea how it is, create a lvl 1 toon on another server with no extra equipment whatsoever, you will probably see there is a need for norm, even thuogh your game skills may still make ite easier for you.

Focussing on epic quests here. Epic normal remains the same in my proposal; only epic hard becomes harder. Doesn't change a lot for those who want to run normal, while epic hard means a nice step up to get ready for epic elite. That's something that should've been done a long time ago already tho, now people are way too used to their easy button.

[Aeron1976]

While you are probably right with the observation that some (especially lvl 18-19) are way harder than most EH quests.

It is weird but supposedly WAI.

and epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic, and think now its easier than pre u17 EE

this though is wrong, i ran quite a lot quests on epic before the difficulty settings were introduced but new EE is harder than former epics. Maybe not for caster DCs but the damage you take if they hit you has increased quite alot.
The old epics would probably be in-between the new EH and EE settings considering their difficulty.

[SirValentine]

and epic elite is faar easiert than the old epic

Is it? I hadn't noticed that.

Maybe EE is easier for a level 25 character with EDs & twists than old Epic was for a level 20 with no EDs, but is EE actually easier in an absolute sense? Does a level 20 with no EDs actually have an easier time in EE than they did in old Epic?

It seems like mobs hit for much more, and have much higher saves.

[-Zephyr-]

It's still easy if people know what to expect.
Hint : guide.

Spread the knowledge, and it'll be pugged as much as before soon enough.

[Forzah]

Is it? I hadn't noticed that.

Maybe EE is easier for a level 25 character with EDs & twists than old Epic was for a level 20 with no EDs, but is EE actually easier in an absolute sense? Does a level 20 with no EDs actually have an easier time in EE than they did in old Epic?

What's your point? Why would anyone care about absolute sense when relative sense only matters in the world we live in? I'd say EE is similar to old epics in relative difficulty, maybe a bit easier. Do you think that EE content should be balanced around level 20's without EDs or something?

I think you're just trying to be smart...but you achieve exactly the opposite.

[bigolbear]

personaly id rather what you suggest be 'casual' - and i see nothign wrong with adding casual mode for raids.

Dont forget EH has the death timer - that puts off the 'not quite casual but definately not hardcore' group that I think most of the playter base consists of.

I do totaly agree with your overall assessment tho.

id say.

casual - no Boom, no undead dragons, revive at half health, low CR for trash. - 25% chance com - normal chance gear.
norm - Boom (but no debuff or chain), undead dragons, revive at full health - guarenteed 1 com.
hard - boom + debuff (but no chain), undead dragons, death timer, revive at full - guarenteed 1 com, 50% chance for 2, better gear.
elite - boom + debuff + chain, undead dragons, death timer - replaced with penalty box, revive at full(with a buff), higher CR for trash. - guarenteed 3 coms, beter gear.


re old epics...

the old epics were not remotely dificult in general, they were just resource hogging hold and slug fests. im glad they are gone.

[SirValentine]

What's your point? Why would anyone care about absolute sense when relative sense only matters in the world we live in?

Since my point has escaped you: if you're comparing an old Epic to it's EE counterpart, you're talking about lower-level quests. The fact that higher-level characters can over-power lower-level content doesn't make the content easier, it just means characters are more powerful.

I'd say EE is similar to old epics in relative difficulty, maybe a bit easier.

I haven't seen any reason to actually believe EE is easier than old Epic, and plenty of reasons to view it as more difficult.

Do you think that EE content should be balanced around level 20's without EDs or something?

I think lower-level content should not be re-balanced around higher-level characters when level cap goes up or new powers are introduced. Doing so just screws over lower-level characters who want to do that content at level.

I think you're just trying to be smart...but you achieve exactly the opposite.

What are you trying to achieve by stooping to irrelevant personal insults instead of presenting facts to back up your claims?

[Justicesar]

I miss running the unorganized messy EH pug with a healer that starts a group and states "Preferes not to lead."..... and usually completes no matter the Chaos.

There used to be alot of groups up for this on Ghalanda EST evening but that number has tanked. Unless everone has their lootz and comendations it seems most likely due to the change. Most groups posted are loaded with top shelf players.....with just a few spots open.

I'm leveling a TR atm but glance at lfm's all the time to see if there is anything going on with FOT....maybe I'm missing the lfms, but I hope to get a chance tonight to get into at least one or two. Norm, Hard....EE doesn't matter...it's a fun raid.

[My2Cents]

I never see any LFMs for FoT, and none for CITW.

My experience with guilds is there's no flexibility for schedule and multiple groips.

I don't think I'll have the pleasure of any of these raids anytime soon and it saddens me because its part of the game I'd like to see more of.

Please keep EH the same. It became accessible, making it harder will be a step back to the previous direction, where I considered moving on from DDO since anything but Normal content was out of reach.

[Ape_Man]

Grow a pair people, this is FAR easier on hard than LOB was on Normal when that first came out.

Look, I think the changes are stupid as well but it's not that hard.

[THOTHdha]

FoT BOOM addition seems to take part of that back. While boom can be mitigated it takes a very coordinated group to do so. This means that PUGs will likely not be able to complete FoT for a significant amount of time, perhaps till the next expansion when they can be over leveled and outgear it.

There is really nothing at all about the change that makes it unPUGable. VoD was said to be 'unPUGable' when it came out due to the Shadows. And a month later the LFM had groups running it with a Shadow Kiter, or as strategies developed further a Shadow Tank. The same with LoB. The only thing that really needs to change is people's perception that Epic Hard raids should be a loot dispenser, rather than something that you actually have to try at.

[Forzah]

Since my point has escaped you: if you're comparing an old Epic to it's EE counterpart, you're talking about lower-level quests. The fact that higher-level characters can over-power lower-level content doesn't make the content easier, it just means characters are more powerful.

Don't see the relevance to the thread. Relative challenge is what counts. Especially EH fails to deliver challenge.

I haven't seen any reason to actually believe EE is easier than old Epic, and plenty of reasons to view it as more difficult.

If you play with the right players, you will destroy mobs on EE (including all new quests) like they aren't even standing there. Just watch some of the videos Haek made in his Juggernaut thread. It's extremely easy to dodge incoming damage in almost any content, and together with a shiradi caster almost everything is CC'ed.

I think lower-level content should not be re-balanced around higher-level characters when level cap goes up or new powers are introduced. Doing so just screws over lower-level characters who want to do that content at level.

Epic normal stays the same, but by making hard and elite harder, a larger portion of players can be served with challenging content. Else endgame becomes boring very quickly....

What are you trying to achieve by stooping to irrelevant personal insults instead of presenting facts to back up your claims?

Not much... just trying to point out that asking a question which can only be answered with "yes" is not really interesting. We all understand that absolute difficulty has increased. I had the idea that you tried to "be smart" by making it look like Psykopeta doesn't understand that absolute difficulty has increased.