WF Wizard - Necro Webber

[Taters214]

So I build my FVS melee-based (dumped WIS), and now I want to TR her to an evoker build. However, I want to put a wizard PL on her first (for +2 spell pen, and the wizard PL feat). The below build is made just for her to run to 20 wizard and then TR. However, I'm thinking of TR'ing my PM wizard (he already has 1 sorc PL) at some point, and thinking I might use the below route for him as well.

I'm just looking for some feedback on the build below. I've gleaned over the forums (and "borrowed" from other builds/threads I found) and used personal experience to put this together. However, I want to make sure I didn't overlook something, or, more importantly, changes in recent updates may make my approach less than optimal.

My goals:
* WF AM (I have a PM - I don't want to do another at this point)
* CC mainly via web, though using disco when enemies saves don't preclude it. In other words, I don't care much about my enchant DC.
* I don't care about EE content. I DO want to be viable in EH content.
* I want decent insta-kill ability while doing heroics (FOD, wail, etc.) but once I get to EH content, I'm less concerned about insta-kill and mostly want to contribute via damage spells (AOE, dots, etc.). My reasoning: I think getting DC's high enough for EH content is beyond my desire to grind. I'm willing to merely contribute to a group as opposed to owning.
* I will NOT be doing any destiny grinding. I'll level my magister ED and then call it a day.
* I'm planning on focusing on cold and acid lines. Cold is awesome, and I've NEVER done acid, so I want to give it a whirl. I personally don't like lightning line much because there is no sustained AOE (like firewall or ice storm), and when I watch my chain lightnings, it seems that sometimes, even if I cast it into a mob, that it only hits a couple foes. (And I've done lightning line several times, so I'm looking for something new- thus acid.) ALSO, it looks like the acid spells are mostly conjuration, which fits in with my conjuration spell focuses and conjuration enhancements needed to get web SLA.
* Gear: I've been grinding out some nice EH gianthold stuff on my FVS lately. I don't plan on doing any heavy grinding for gear. I will have the basics for a caster that are easy enough to acquire that fit in with this build (+2 to spell pen, +2 necro, relevent GS stuff, etc.)

While these are my initial goals/thoughts, I'm certainly willing to change my mind on any point (except grinding related points - I hate grinding) should sufficient reason be offered. I am a min-maxer by nature (though a lazy one, thus the hate for grinding) so I do want to be powerful. And since I don't grind gear or ED's, I need the base build to be as powerful as possible in and of itself.

Thanks in advance to anyone who made it this far through my word jungle.

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Totalle Failure
Level 25 True Neutral Warforged Male
(20 Wizard \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 322
Spell Points: 1925 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 16
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
Strength             12                    14
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         18                    20
Intelligence         18                    31
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 25)
Balance               1                    15
Bluff                -2                     4
Concentration         8                    36
Diplomacy            -2                     4
Disable Device        n/a                  n/a
Haggle               -2                     4
Heal                  0                     6
Hide                 -1                    15
Intimidate           -2                     4
Jump                  3                    18
Listen                0                     6
Move Silently        -1                    15
Open Lock            n/a                    n/a
Perform              n/a                    4
Repair                6                    26
Search                4                    15
Spot                  2                    17
Swim                  1                     7
Tumble                0                     5
Use Magic Device      0                    15

Level 1 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Conjuration
Enhancement: Deadly Acid I
Enhancement: Deadly Ice I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation II
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation II
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Archmage I


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation III
Enhancement: Archmage Spell Mastery I: Conjuration
Enhancement: Conjuration I - Grease


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Archmage II
Enhancement: Conjuration II - Web


Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation V
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Archmage III
Enhancement: Archmage Secondary Spell Mastery I: Necromancy


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VI
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation V
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation VI


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Wizard Archmage IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 17 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend II


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Master of Magic
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting III


Level 21 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 22 (Wizard)


Level 23 (Wizard)


Level 24 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 25 (Wizard)

[Kinerd]

You say you don't want to grind destiny points, and that's fine, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least take a peek at DI and Fatesinger. They're both castery enough to play as a caster, and 15 levels gives you 5 fate points to play with, enough for a tier 2 and tier 1, which you could use to bring +3 Necro DC and 6 Reflex from Magister into DI, or less interestingly 1 Int and 6 Reflex from DI to Magister.

Rather than Extend, how about SF: Enchant? This lets you get SLA Hypno. I heartily endorse Web as a primary CC option, but being able to toss Hypnos for 1 SP is a very valuable ability, and Extend is not. Another option (since it's not taken in a Wiz feat slot) is to start your Spell Pen chain there, getting you up to Epic Spell Pen, which is also very valuable.

Don't know if it's just for planner convenience, but you'll get more out of switching to primary Necro secondary Conj than vice versa so you can take Spell Mastery 2.

Acid is good but the Conjuration synergy doesn't really matter. BDB, Burning Blood, Melf's if you're really feeling it; none have saves. Acid Rain only sort of has a save.

[Taters214]

You say you don't want to grind destiny points, and that's fine, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least take a peek at DI and Fatesinger. They're both castery enough to play as a caster, and 15 levels gives you 5 fate points to play with, enough for a tier 2 and tier 1, which you could use to bring +3 Necro DC and 6 Reflex from Magister into DI, or less interestingly 1 Int and 6 Reflex from DI to Magister.

Yes, I'll take a look. Some interesting things to look into. ED's are mostly new to me and I mostly don't know what I"m doing with them. I think this is part of my reluctance to grind them. (Interestingly enough, I don't mind grinding out past lives so much, and I think that's because I'm familiar with the quests and feel comfortable there.)

Rather than Extend, how about SF: Enchant? This lets you get SLA Hypno. I heartily endorse Web as a primary CC option, but being able to toss Hypnos for 1 SP is a very valuable ability, and Extend is not. Another option (since it's not taken in a Wiz feat slot) is to start your Spell Pen chain there, getting you up to Epic Spell Pen, which is also very valuable.

You know, I tinkered with the idea of doing sf: enchant so I could get the Hypo SLA (other threads recommended it), but what mostly shied me away was that I didn't see the real value of it. Okay, so it's a no-save to give the target a -3 will save. Why is that so beneficial? Will it help with my discos? It is used to soften them up for something else? Is there some other great benefit to hypno besides the -3 will save it bestows?

Yes, extend loses its value toward higher levels. I'm not opposed to replacing it with something else. Though at low levels it's really nice to have.

Don't know if it's just for planner convenience, but you'll get more out of switching to primary Necro secondary Conj than vice versa so you can take Spell Mastery 2.

I was just trying to get SLA web as fast as possible. Now that I reexamine it though, your way is much better as it gives me a better necro DC. Though it does delay getting web SLA. Unless I just do it my way and then redo enhancements at a higher level to switch it to your way. Then I'd have the best of both worlds.

Acid is good but the Conjuration synergy doesn't really matter. BDB, Burning Blood, Melf's if you're really feeling it; none have saves. Acid Rain only sort of has a save.

I'm glad to hear that acid is good as I've no experience with it (which is why I want to try it).

What acid spells are must haves?

Thank you for all the good advice and thought-provoking ideas!

[Kinerd]

You know, I tinkered with the idea of doing sf: enchant so I could get the Hypo SLA (other threads recommended it), but what mostly shied me away was that I didn't see the real value of it. Okay, so it's a no-save to give the target a -3 will save. Why is that so beneficial? Will it help with my discos? It is used to soften them up for something else? Is there some other great benefit to hypno besides the -3 will save it bestows?

It will probably not help your Discos in any significant way, just because the timing is pretty hard to pull off. The main things it helps are instant (rather than persistent) Will checks. It is a niche, but a pretty interesting niche: Holds (including Mass Hold), Hypno itself (extremely handy in anything but an aggressively incompetent group), Undeath to Death (Hypno does not work on [most?] undead but the debuff does), Banishment, perhaps Crushing Despair if you find yourself with a surplus of spell level 4 slots (more on this later).

I was just trying to get SLA web as fast as possible. Now that I reexamine it though, your way is much better as it gives me a better necro DC. Though it does delay getting web SLA. Unless I just do it my way and then redo enhancements at a higher level to switch it to your way. Then I'd have the best of both worlds.

That is what I do. It makes no difference until level 15, but I recommend swapping at level 12 because it's plat-cheaper and I was raised not to waste.

I'm glad to hear that acid is good as I've no experience with it (which is why I want to try it).

What acid spells are must haves?

-Black Dragon Bolt is the only real must have. It's a great spell and level 8 is pretty sparse for pure wizards.
-Acid Rain is really good, but like BDB think of it more as a nuke than a persistent even though it occurs over time. It's not something like WoF/Ice Storm where you gather up a few mobs, throw, gather up some more, kite through, gather up even more, bring back. It's gone in 6 seconds.
-Burning Blood is also really good, but this and Acid Rain have the problem of being spell level 4. You have more leeway as an AM, but it's still tight. In addition to these two, there's DD, Ice Storm, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, and though I'm not big on them things like PK, Enervation, Crushing Despair, Stoneskin.
-Cloudkill is incredible, but because of Concealment (without an annoying graphic) and Con damage, specializing in Acid is pretty irrelevant. Obviously still have it, but it won't be dramatically better than a non-Acid arcane's.
-Melf's Acid Arrow is not incredible, but at the cost of a spell level 2 fire and forget it's pretty sweet.
-Acid Blast and Acid Spray do not scale well, but they still have their uses, and depending on the rest of your set-up you may have room in spell levels 1 and 3 anyway, so why not? Not things you need to stress about slotting, though.

Thank you for all the good advice and thought-provoking ideas!

Welcome!

[squishwizzy]

Acid is decent, and better than fire, sonic, and electric in my opinion. However, I generally find that cold and force tend to dominate the elemental damage lines.

I generally go cold and acid for my AMs.

[squishwizzy]

I was just trying to get SLA web as fast as possible. Now that I reexamine it though, your way is much better as it gives me a better necro DC. Though it does delay getting web SLA. Unless I just do it my way and then redo enhancements at a higher level to switch it to your way. Then I'd have the best of both worlds.

You know, I've always thought Web was situational. I still say that devils teleport out of webs, thought I haven't been really looking into that real cloesly lately.

Most people when they tell you to go with the Web SLA will tell you how great it is, because you can kite mobs through them. They then say something like, "well if they don't stick on the first time, it'll grab them on the second, third, or fourth time."

To me, that's not really worth it. I kinda want my CC to work the first time through for a majority of the mobs.

Plus there is a problem when you start running with people who throw a fireball at everything (or Cometfall), or do something to destroy your webs.

Even though webs work well with a necro focus, I generally go enchantment for a wide array of CC. This means, however, you'd better have some decent spell pen to overcome mob SR at upper levels. I generally go elf and take in as much spell pen as I can get.

Given your desire to go WF, I'm not sure how well that'll work out.

At lower levels, webs are THE thing - one of the best all-around CC for most content. Now that I'm hitting upper levels, I'm finding that I'm dropping disco balls as often as I'm dropping webs. Maybe if I focused on Conjuration, it might be different - I dunno.

[moops]

I like Acid a lot,esp Acid Rain, and tried to do Acid as my main for one life, but, the problem I found on my Wizard was that Acid just does not last long enough and is more SP cost.

For most my Wiz lives I ended up Cold First--better dot and AOE IMHO and went back and forth between using Ice Storm/Acid rain Combo, or Acid Rain Firewall combo depending on content.

I point out SP because you will be coming from an FVS build...Hardest part about Wiz is SP for me. I chose my Archmage schools based on what is going to save me more SP. Enchantment for instance gave me a ton of virtually free CC, while I could put a lot of points in to Cold or Acid--or for the 8-14 lvls fire. Late levels Cloudkill as well.

Edited to Add : Also if you are grouping, people you play with have a tendency to cast things like fireball to ruin your web And there are some mobs that do this as well.