More "In the Demon's Den", less "Rusted Blades"

[nibel]

Not talking about XP here.

I'm talking about how the quest "In the Demon's Den" is actually VERY different at normal, hard, and elite.

For those that don't know this quest, you enter a demonic cave where a Marilith is trying to do a ritual to summon more demons to fight for her. She is being protected by a forcefield sustained by three elder efreets, and you need to defeat the efreets before you are able to defeat her.

At normal, she sit on the altar, and only after you defeat the efreets, she goes after you.

At Hard, the second you are spotted, she starts to chase you down. You can't damage her while the efreets are alive, so you need someone to keep her distracted.

At elite, not only she gives chase, but the efreets are revived if there are other efreets alive. So, you need to get rid of the efreets at the same time. Some people split up (like Tempest Spine's Fire and Ice), others pull the efreets to the center for the kill (like Shroud part 2).

A small change to the quest, but it changes completelly how you should run it. You can't get a group for normal (let's say, without a tank), and run hard instead, because you have to account for the marilith chasing you.

There is at least two other quest that changes on elite: "A Small Problem", the first quest on the Phiarlan Carnival chain. On elite, you need to fight the demonic wolves that were keeping an eye on Brawnpits this whole time, while on the lower difficulty settings, just there is no endfight. "In the Flesh", the last quest on the Harbringer of Madness chain, also features a very different endfight if you go on elite because of all the beholders around removing your buffs.

We need more quests that are harder not because of inflated numbers, but because there is something there that makes you life harder. Eg, on "House of Rusted Blades": Run on Normal, and you only need to rust the Blademaster's weapon. Run on Hard, and you need to rust every weapon rack around. Run on Elite, and you need to rust every weapon around and defeat the matron.

More objectives isn't the only way to make things harder. Adding traps, different mobs, or simply changing some spell selection/elemental damage around makes the quest kinda unpredictable, in the case you are distracted. Let's say, that fire trap on "Kobold's New Ringleader" could deal fire, cold, or acid damage, randomly. The Agility Test on "Crucible" might spawn illusory spikes instead of their normal blades (requiring will saves), or throw some very dangerous almost-instant poison damage (requiring fortitude saves or neutralize poison buffs), since the test itself is based on speed, and not evasion. You might need to see the traps before choosing who will run it.

Some more uses for Religious/Arcane/Wilderness lore might be useful for this too. Like adding a neutral NPC at the start of "Purge the Heretics", and if you have religious lore, might even turn the quest into a dialogue chain against the bosses, where you try to convert them to the Silver Flame. If you have enough skill for it, you got good XP without fights. If you fail, you trigger the current quest, where the devouts try to defende themselves against you.

[MRMechMan]

Yea but that takes a lot more work.

[CaptainSpacePony]

/signed and +1

[Ilindith]

Few quests are like that and it's perfect as it is.

Honestly, making every quest more complicated for the player on elite would just make content annoying to run.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Few quests are like that and it's perfect as it is.

Honestly, making every quest more complicated for the player on elite would just make content annoying to run.

If it's too complicated run hard, or normal.

Bbecause imo elite doesn't give the challenge it should. It just beefs up mob HP and damage and basically makes people use the same strategy but slower and more resourcefully.

[sirgog]

Signed, but I'd rather more monster/trap mechanics that can be ignored on Normal, hurt on Hard, and will obliterate you on Elite if not reacted to properly.

Somewhat like the Shroud blades were for a few weeks - Normal you could ignore them or heal through them (you'd lose squishy players sometimes but the raid would still win), Hard you had to get out but had some margin for error, and Elite you needed to get out of the blades and there was little room for error.

Other than Normal blades doing a little too much damage for level 17 characters, I think that was a perfect setup. (If the Normal blades had been dropped to ~50 damage per second players stood in them it would have been perfect, the 70-100 or so was just a little too high for the squishies)



Edit: I'd also rather see monster stats be higher on Epic Normal and Epic Hard than they are now, but at the expense of their being fewer monsters (and in particular less dangerous combinations of mobs). The automatic scaling up and down is really not working - some mobs in EN (fire mephits in particular but really any elemental damage caster mob) are more dangerous than whole packs of melee mobs.

[SealedInSong]

Few quests are like that and it's perfect as it is.

Honestly, making every quest more complicated for the player on elite would just make content annoying to run.

Ilindith, if you want the same mindless grind for the majority of quests I have to disagree. I'd prefer the ratio to be reversed and have almost all quests as the OP describes and few quests stay static.

The OP made a very salient point about how the game design can be thought of differently. Commendable.

Subtle increases in difficulty caused by shifting tactics is infinitely preferable to me compared to just inflating enemy hit points and incoming damage.

[SardaofChaos]

Yea but that takes a lot more work.

... and?

[FranOhmsford]

1. Small Problem - The Mutt fight at the end is in my opinion as nothing compared to the Tieflings on the rocks {They only appear on Elite too}.

2. Changing Korthos, Harbour or even Marketplace quests would be make-work {i.e. Not worth the time and effort}.

3. If we're all agreed that Small Problem is the first quest of this type in the game {and in my opinion at least - The hardest lvl 5 quest!}. Then maybe the Devs could start with 2 from each of the lvl 6-10 quests - Perhaps:

Lvl 6 - Gladewatch Outpost and Purge the Heretics?

Lvl 7 - The Graverobber {Dread Zombies already have far too many HP on Normal!} & Scoundrel's Run {far too easy as is for a lvl 7 quest}.

Lvl 8 - In Need of Supplies & The Rescue - Changes to Threnal = Yay!

Lvl 9 - The Giant Lieutenants & The Giant's Lair - More Threnalian Changes {Add Favour to Compendium too!}

Lvl 10 - Hold for Reinforcements & The Gate Chamber {You knew I was going to pick these two didn't you?}

Then go for at least one quest of Lvl 11-18 to change where possible?

[nibel]

Signed, but I'd rather more monster/trap mechanics that can be ignored on Normal, hurt on Hard, and will obliterate you on Elite if not reacted to properly.

My only problem with this kind of scaling is that it is very latency-dependent. If you are with a good latency, you see no problems and can actually react in a fraction of a second. Otherwise, you just THINK you escaped because you saw the attack/trap missing you, but the server register a hit and there was nothing you could do to prevent.

3. If we're all agreed that Small Problem is the first quest of this type in the game {and in my opinion at least - The hardest lvl 5 quest!}. Then maybe the Devs could start with 2 from each of the lvl 6-10 quests - Perhaps:

That, or just using this philosophy on the next quests they are making right now (U19, maybe). No need to go back and change every quest for that, but would be awesome on the next ones.

I know it is unrealistic to expect them to just rewrite every single quest to fit on this suggestion. There are even some quests that can't be changed at all to fit this style. The suggestion is mostly whishful thinking into the future, and maybe changing some key popular quests, like rusted blades (that most people farm on normal anyway) or Delara.

[Pantronic]

We need more quests that are harder not because of inflated numbers, but because there is something there that makes you life harder. Eg, on "House of Rusted Blades": Run on Normal, and you only need to rust the Blademaster's weapon. Run on Hard, and you need to rust every weapon rack around. Run on Elite, and you need to rust every weapon around and defeat the matron.

Ugh no.. that isn't harder, it's just more annoying.

I'm sure most people fight the matron on whatever level for a chance at a Seal, but skip rusting all the weapons because the rewards for doing it aren't worth the time. I, for one, am very happy it's an optional and hope it stays that way... unless it's changed to give way more XP than it does.

[Ilindith]

If it's too complicated run hard, or normal.

Bbecause imo elite doesn't give the challenge it should. It just beefs up mob HP and damage and basically makes people use the same strategy but slower and more resourcefully.

There's no such thing as running normal or hard anymore ever since they added bravery bonuses.

Sure if they were to do something like that it would be interesting, the first four of five runs. Then you'd just get annoyed that you have to do five times more work to get your quest done as opposed to normal or hard.

Just think of two of the quests the OP mentionned, Demon's Den and In the Flesh. How many people actually run those more than once on elite? Or even run them at all? Apply this to every quest and I can assure you that people will get tired of running them pretty quick.

[jandhaer]

Personally I'd rather they just take the game they have now and fix it. The bugs are getting out of hand. People are never happy about anything and always want things tweaked the way they think everything should be (usually to their benefit). I just want the **** to work period.

[FranOhmsford]

That, or just using this philosophy on the next quests they are making right now (U19, maybe). No need to go back and change every quest for that, but would be awesome on the next ones.

I know it is unrealistic to expect them to just rewrite every single quest to fit on this suggestion. There are even some quests that can't be changed at all to fit this style. The suggestion is mostly whishful thinking into the future, and maybe changing some key popular quests, like rusted blades (that most people farm on normal anyway) or Delara.

Now personally I'd love to see them change Delera's BUT and this is a BIG BUT!

As you're quite aware Delera's is one of the most popular packs in the game! Any changes would be likely to get right up the noses of a lot of people!

Whereas - Threnal!....
I also mentioned:
Gladewatch
Purge the Heretics
The Graverobber
All quests that could benefit heavily from a change in quest style for Elite - As opposed to what we have now {massively scaled HP & Spell Dmg!}.

I also mentioned Scoundrel's Run - A quest that is quite simply mislabelled {It is not by any stretch of the imagination a Lvl 7 quest}.
Upping Mob HP etc. has done nothing for this quest on Elite.
Putting different challenges in there {just on Elite} would in my view be a vast improvement!
I'd suggest:
1. Changing Scorpions & Bats to Hyenas & Darkfang Spiders {A different challenge - Randomize the Spawn Spots}.
2. Scatter some Scrag Trolls amongst the Minotaurs
3. Randomizing all traps!
4. Changing 2 of the Earth Eles to Air Eles {Yeah this one's nasty}.
5. Keep HP/Dmg etc at Hard difficulty levels for trash {especially the Air Eles}
6. Remaining Earth Eles, Minotaur Berserkers & Scrag Trolls should be given Red-Name status.
7. Minotaur Shaman's should be CC based please {Keep their HP low and NO immunities (esp. Deathward)}.
8. Put Boss Kharja on a Par with say Elite Garos {The Snitch*} - Make it a real fight! - Garos has Spell Casting - Kharja should have Cleave/Great Cleave! {Over-run alone doesn't cut it when he's got no backup - Keep it a one on one fight though.}.


* The Snitch is another quest that could do with changes - As it comes after Small Problem & Partycrashers it is frankly way way too easy comparatively.
I'd go so far as to say that of the Level 5 quests in the game - Every one is significantly more challenging!
Strangely however I've still not found a Rust Monster anywhere else in game that would last more than 2 seconds in a one on one fight with Rusty! {Making him None-Optional on Elite would go some way to boosting this quest.}.

[Tobril]

In the Flesh. How many people actually run those more than once on elite? Or even run them at all?

That was good times.

[Ginarrbrik]

Personally I'd rather they just take the game they have now and fix it. The bugs are getting out of hand. People are never happy about anything and always want things tweaked the way they think everything should be (usually to their benefit). I just want the **** to work period.

bugs? what bugs? :P

but really, i'm not denying them and i'm not saying i don't want them fixed. i definitely do. but we need to have more realistic expectations. the whole 'fix all the bugs before releasing new stuff' argument is starting to get old. it's a lot easier said than done so we'll just need to deal with it. talk about never being happy.

@OP,
/signed. i totally agree that quests need to be more dynamic and challenging. something more interesting than just a beatdown, where each difficulty just tests how well-geared your dps is. i think we could benefit a lot from quests that actually require thought, strategy, and coordination. i know that it's been done in the past such as titan and abbot and it's sad that they don't go over well with some people because they just aren't willing to take the time to learn. of course, with the complication of the quest comes a higher risk of critical bugs, but personally i just say 'oh well.' unique quests are more fun, bugs and all. it's worth it in the end.

[Pantronic]

bugs? what bugs? :P

but really, i'm not denying them and i'm not saying i don't want them fixed. i definitely do. but we need to have more realistic expectations. the whole 'fix all the bugs before releasing new stuff' argument is starting to get old. it's a lot easier said than done so we'll just need to deal with it. talk about never being happy.
.

The argument might be getting old, but it's nevertheless an essential argument. Adding "new stuff" without fixing existing bugs just increases the amount of code affected by the bugs and very often translates directly into more effort--i.e., more time--to fix the bugs than it would have taken before the "new stuff".

Put another way, the longer they don't fix the bugs, the less chance they will ever fix the bugs. And I, for one, do not wish to continue being stuck in walls (just one example) forever. I love getting new stuff too, but not THAT much.

[aarant]

It is to, Ive had more fun in that quest during a tr trying to get a elite completion then any other content in the game(thats taking into account that the xp is almost insulting ur really not in there for xp)And is probally tougher then most lawl eh content on elite.

[ZeebaNeighba]

There's no such thing as running normal or hard anymore ever since they added bravery bonuses.

Sure if they were to do something like that it would be interesting, the first four of five runs. Then you'd just get annoyed that you have to do five times more work to get your quest done as opposed to normal or hard.

Just think of two of the quests the OP mentionned, Demon's Den and In the Flesh. How many people actually run those more than once on elite? Or even run them at all? Apply this to every quest and I can assure you that people will get tired of running them pretty quick.

Sucks, doesn't it?

This thread is here so that there is such a thing as normal and hard again. Because either you'll get annoyed with those quests and it will suck for just you, or everyone will get annoyed and will try running normal and hard. Make the change to enough quests and people will run N/H instead of simply avoiding those quests.

[Ivan_Milic]

This and abbot raid are the only quests I never did.
I run in the flesh once per life,if we complete good,if not I move on.
But in the demons den,I have no idea why I never did it,saw lfm maybe once or twice for it,will try to complete it this life.