Half-Orc Barbarians still best choice?

[Jsbeer]

With all the changes U14 has brought, is a Half-Orc Barbarian still (one of) the best melee DPS choice?

Primary reason I am asking is that trying to fit in Overwhelming Critical is rather difficult on a Half-Orc Pure Barb
So would Human and/or a 2 Fighter splash be better?

All comments and feat lists welcome

[Ivan_Milic]

Yes they are,and for overwhelming crit take out toughness and take great cleave,then you have 2 epic feats take weap focus and overwhelming,but it is bugged,it does nothing atm.

[Standal]

My barb has a 2 fighter splash. With the changes to AC and PRR, I find proficiency in heavy armor a huge plus.

I took great cleave, but I'm not sure it's necessary. It's better than cleave, but with a maxxed out momentum swing I don't know if you need it. I'm generally just spamming supreme cleave when it's off timer, then hitting momentum swing, then lay waste when it's clear.

With the knockdown abilities in both fury and LD, I kept toughness and dropped stunning blow. I have enough DPS and to hit that the helpless damage isn't necessary to kill the mobs before they get up.

[conanj77]

Like it has been said, yes, especially with over whelming critical...
My Barb I made is now up to level 12, he kicks butt, I made him because I wanted to try out the new changes on a non-monk melee. He is 18Barbarian/2fighter, losing out on only 1point of strength compared to pure barb, and because I am almost always running around in combat I am going to switch out THF/ITHF/GTHF so I can get Overwhelming critical and stunning blow, along with toughness and all the other barbarian feats

quick breakdown:
Epic Antique Greataxe base damage: 2(1d20)+6~Average= 26.5
Critical(while raged+overwhelming critical+Tier 3 FB)x7 multiplier, Average crit= 185.5

So without Strength mofiers to damage, Barb/Horc power attack boosts, power attack feat, supreme/greater cleave, the average critical is 185.5

Take 185.5, now add in my barbs strength at level 21(when he gets overwhelming critical) with rage+Frenzy+death frezny on: 20base+5levels+3tome+1fighter+7item+2insight=38
38+10(rage+power rage IV)+6(frenzy+Death frenzy)=54+2ship buffs=56, now I know I am forgeting stuff, but this is just what i can think of...

Strength=56, modifier=23

so, 26.5+23=49.5+16(power attack+barb/Horc III)=65.5

65.5x7=458.5... Now factor spamming Cleaves, Great cleaves, supreme cleaves, and stunning blows.
stunned enemies take x2 damage, now take that average crit, and say i used a supreme cleave, I managed to hit one of the stunned enemies, which means i hit for an additional 2(1d20) on all enemies around me, and i hit the stunned guy for 65.5+20.5(average of 2(1d20)) which is 86, 86x7=602x1.5=903

903 points of damage, thats pretty sweet in my book, thats no even including the other effects on the weapon, or the vicious/improved vicious from Frenzy/Death frenzy...

Add in the LD level 5 ability, you get an additional +50% to stunned/helpless, that makes it 1204, and then LD also adds 1[w] damage, so that would be in before the crit, which would make it the following...

86+20.5=106.5, x7=745.5 average supreme cleave crit, add in the 2.0damage modifier to helpless from stun+LD level 5, that becomes a nasty total of 1491, just imagine if you used Momentum swing and got a crit on a stunned/held mob, you would be hitting for a total of 2(1d20)+1[W]+3[W]=10(1d20)+23(str mod)+16(PA+enhancements)=182.5
182.5x7=1227.5x2modifier to stunned/held mob= 2555 points, Now that would be a devastating blow, putting all other melees to shame...

If I wanted to go insane(which i will) I would factor in the most possible damage(x4 to all damage from Challanges bonus boosty thingy)... so here it is! 2555points * 4=10220 That is impressive, if not higher then 50% of the best crits from a 1st life sorc or Wizzy... But thats like the max that I can think of, and I actually forgot the +.5[W] from LD...

Just some food for thought!!!

[Ivan_Milic]

Stunned enemies dont take x2 dmg,they take 50% more dmg.

[conanj77]

o.O didnt know that, guess i can edit that to fix it, so that the numbers use the +50% extra from LD, thanks...

CJ out!

[Nitesco]

Isn't Epic Antique 2[2d20] now? Maybe it's just being a Kensai Fighter or and ED thing that's upping the dice I see. Can anyone else confirm?

[sephiroth1084]

It's 2[1d20].

It went from 3d10 (avg.: 16.5, max of 30) to an avg. of 21, and a max of 40, but it's more swingy, and less likely to hit its average than the last version.

[Jsbeer]

Thanks for the replies. I am very tempted by a 2 FTR splash to get all the 2HF line and Overwhelming crtical as well as Toughness and Stunning Blow/Epic Toughness. Is this a decent idea or any suggestions for other feat choices?

[sephiroth1084]

I'd say you may be better served picking up Improved Sunder over either Toughness of GTHF. If you're going to be cycling Cleave, Great Cleave, Momentum Swing, and Lay Waste, you probably won't be getting all of your glancing blows anyway (not sure whether gbs trigger on any of those attacks), which makes the THF chain less worthwhile. Personally, I'm loath to give up the whole chain, as sometimes I do feel a bit lazy and want to auto-attack, but I'm not sure all 3 feats are necessary.

Remember that you need both Great Cleave and Weapon Focus to get Overwhelming Critical.

[goodspeed]

For dps ya I'd say ya can't go wrong with a horc. Though for a stat lineup I don't think I'd go 20 str. I'd take those 6 points and toss em into dex. Theirs some nice feats that require a base of 13 or 14. Like that change to precision.

No penalty now for it, but it adds to your to hit, which offsets the penalty of stacking all those power attacks for more dmg at the cost of to hit. Though while buffed and raged to hit shouldn't really be an issue, still gives an easier time of it. Plus i'm not sure if anything changed with to hit with the new update.

But heres the thing. Not sure if a horc will be the best or rivaling best. (You can do ALOT of dmg with human versatility and say rog or fighter haste boost all the while raged up and pounding away with a barbarian)

When they get around to changing up the enhancements as well as add in the racial prestige's, it's all up in this air which could be the best course for dmg. Horcs are supposedly to gain the ravager line, but then again no clue what it does. Where as humans (and I think helves to) are supposed to be able to choose for a lil bit more investment.

So if it came down to it, i'd say a human would be the safest bet.

As for a lineup, i'd prolly go for 2 rogue or 2 fighter depending on what you were looking for.

[sephiroth1084]

You can't have Precision active at the same time as Power Attack.

Over the long run, you will be doing more DPS as a half-orc with Damage Boost IV than a human with DB IV and Haste Boost I. Horc is better DPS, while human is more healable and probably ends up with more HP, making them the better choice for a tank.

[zukt]

I'd say you may be better served picking up Improved Sunder over either Toughness of GTHF. If you're going to be cycling Cleave, Great Cleave, Momentum Swing, and Lay Waste, you probably won't be getting all of your glancing blows anyway (not sure whether gbs trigger on any of those attacks), which makes the THF chain less worthwhile. Personally, I'm loath to give up the whole chain, as sometimes I do feel a bit lazy and want to auto-attack, but I'm not sure all 3 feats are necessary.

They are. Glancing blows proc on all thf weapon cleaves (supreme cleave, great cleave) except quarterstaffs cleaves (bugged for over a year, still no response), so giving up last thf feat is giving up a large amount of dps... except on quarterstaffs which is an endless amount of frustration to my staff user.

[sephiroth1084]

They are. Glancing blows proc on all thf weapon cleaves (supreme cleave, great cleave) except quarterstaffs cleaves (bugged for over a year, still no response), so giving up last thf feat is giving up a large amount of dps... except on quarterstaffs which is an endless amount of frustration to my staff user.

Giving up GTHF is dropping 10% of your glancing blow damage and the glance on your 4th(?) swing. If you aren't making that swing, you aren't losing all that much, even with glances on all your Cleaves.

[zukt]

Giving up GTHF is dropping 10% of your glancing blow damage and the glance on your 4th(?) swing. If you aren't making that swing, you aren't losing all that much, even with glances on all your Cleaves.

You could say giving up power attack isn't losing all that much also. It's only 10 damage after all. It's about 20 to 30% more damage in autoattack, and between 5-10% more twitching cleave. Even more noticeable in situations with lots of splash damage.

That's pretty big when your base damage is 80 or so.

[sephiroth1084]

You could say giving up power attack isn't losing all that much also. It's only 10 damage after all. It's about 20 to 30% more damage in autoattack, and between 5-10% more twitching cleave. Even more noticeable in situations with lots of splash damage.

That's pretty big when your base damage is 80 or so.

Giving up PA on a half-orc barbarian is losing 22 damage per swing, on every swing, and a fraction of that on glancing blows. It's a MUCH bigger percentage of your damage, A, and B, it's a moot point, since it is a prerequisite for Cleave.

Let's say your base damage is 80.
Glances w/GTHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.5 = 40 on glances
Glances w/ITHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.4 = 32 on glances, or -8 damage on glancing blows

80+40=120
80+32=112
A loss of 7% of your DPS before accounting for crits and weapon procs, if you're getting glancing blows on every swing (ie, Swing, Swing, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Swing, Swing). I still haven't seen any info on whether Momentum Swing and Lay Waste proc glances at all, or if they do so on every attack.

If you are running full attack chains, then GTHF is a big loss in DPS, as you lose that 10% and the additional glance in the chain, but if you're looking for a feat to give up, that isn't too big a loss. Personally, I think I'd be inclined to drop Toughness first, but only if I give up any notion of being a raid tank on occasion.

Stunning Blow is much too valuable.

Improved Sunder is less so, but very worthwhile in some situations, and you can't rely on others carrying it. In the situations for which it's useful, it accounts for much more than a 5% increase in DPS, because it's improving the DPS of not just you, but every other melee in your group attacking that target (plus, it synergizes well with Stunning Blow on very high Fort targets).

On a pure barb, you only have 9 feats to pick up all of PA, Cleave, GC, WF, OC, SB, IS, ICrit, THF, ITHF, GTHF and Toughness (and Epic Toughness if that's your thing)--that's 12 (13) feats for 9 slots. What do you drop? On a /2 fighter, you have 2 more feats to work with, but are still looking at 11 slots for 12 or 13 feats.

[Jsbeer]

So for a Half-Orc 18 Barbarian/ 2 Fighter (with fighter levels at 19 and 20) would the following feat order be good:


1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
19 - Stunning Blow
20 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Improved Sunder or Toughness


Alternatively, I could go Human 20 Barbarian and drop Improved Sunder while gaining the capstone.
Decisions, decisions.......

[zukt]

Giving up PA on a half-orc barbarian is losing 22 damage per swing, on every swing, and a fraction of that on glancing blows. It's a MUCH bigger percentage of your damage, A, and B, it's a moot point, since it is a prerequisite for Cleave.

Let's say your base damage is 80.
Glances w/GTHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.5 = 40 on glances
Glances w/ITHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.4 = 32 on glances, or -8 damage on glancing blows

80+40=120
80+32=112
A loss of 7% of your DPS before accounting for crits and weapon procs, if you're getting glancing blows on every swing (ie, Swing, Swing, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Swing, Swing). I still haven't seen any info on whether Momentum Swing and Lay Waste proc glances at all, or if they do so on every attack.

And all this is on single targets. Every situation where you're facing multiple targets, the loss is bigger.

If you are running full attack chains, then GTHF is a big loss in DPS, as you lose that 10% and the additional glance in the chain, but if you're looking for a feat to give up, that isn't too big a loss. Personally, I think I'd be inclined to drop Toughness first, but only if I give up any notion of being a raid tank on occasion.

Stunning Blow is much too valuable.

I can't see any argument for giving up the last and most powerful feat in the thf feat chain on a barbarian. If you want a tactics toon that gives up damage for tactics, barbarian isn't it. I can see giving up some HP for tactics, but not damage when that's what the class is about.

Improved Sunder is less so, but very worthwhile in some situations, and you can't rely on others carrying it. In the situations for which it's useful, it accounts for much more than a 5% increase in DPS, because it's improving the DPS of not just you, but every other melee in your group attacking that target (plus, it synergizes well with Stunning Blow on very high Fort targets).

And that's a great argument for a tactics fighter having it, not a barbarian.

On a pure barb, you only have 9 feats to pick up all of PA, Cleave, GC, WF, OC, SB, IS, ICrit, THF, ITHF, GTHF and Toughness (and Epic Toughness if that's your thing)--that's 12 (13) feats for 9 slots. What do you drop? On a /2 fighter, you have 2 more feats to work with, but are still looking at 11 slots for 12 or 13 feats.

GC,WF,SB,IS?

Really anything but GTHF and frenzied berserker prereqs and improved crit.

I don't know why you would take weapon focus unless they changed how it works.

[WruntJunior]

I don't know why you would take weapon focus unless they changed how it works.

Required for Overwhelming Critical.

[emptysands]

With all the changes U14 has brought, is a Half-Orc Barbarian still (one of) the best melee DPS choice?

Primary reason I am asking is that trying to fit in Overwhelming Critical is rather difficult on a Half-Orc Pure Barb
So would Human and/or a 2 Fighter splash be better?

All comments and feat lists welcome

The ability to get Haste Boost IV makes a big potential difference to Barbarian dps.

I've got a simple spreadsheet that looks at a few (auto-attack) THF options: http://goo.gl/nyBEs.

The main issue with HO 20 Barb is feats: drop Toughness and Stunning Blow for OC: Slashing. As Standal mentioned there are ED knockdowns, so the lack of stunning for CC is maybe not an issue.

Whatever the case, there is about 11% difference between Human and Half-Orc per swing and 5% difference between 18Barb/2Fighter and 20 Barb.

Previously a "Haste Boost IV" Fighter would beat a "Haste" Barb. Maybe a "Half-Elf Haste Boost IV" and "Human Versatility IV" Fighter would still be situational top.