Dear Epic Monkeys

[cohiba007]

What stance are you most using these days and why please

[thegreatneil]

Solo, small groups Grandmaster Air.
Party (haste caster) Grandmaster Earth.

[Celestialbeast]

Grandmaster ocean. Until I get more of my ED unlocked anyways. Then most likely GM Mountain

[sebastianosmith]

I run several pure and splash monks who stay mostly Wind or Earth depending on what they're doing - beating trash or fighting a boss. Situationally, I'll drop them into Water for better saves and a few more points of Wis/DC/AC/Dodge. I almost never have them assume Fire and don't after level eight or so unless they need the strength boost. Amassing ki is not really an issue in any stance if used judiciously.

[sacredguyver]

(34pt Horc Shintao) I stay in GM Water most of the time. When I'm against a boss or other red-named, I'll often switch to GM Fire since doing so would be +3 to-hit/damage and +0.75[W] damage (Water is -2 STR, so I'd get that back plus the +4 STR from GM fire and the +0.75[W] is from Dancing with Flame in the GMoF destiny). I'll lose a few points of AC and about 7% of my Dodge, but since I'm not supposed to be taking hits, it doesn't really hurt me. ┐(￣ー￣)┌

[Rawel_San]

GM fire 90% of the time GM mountain when tanking/on red named.

In fire mostly for the extra ki gen if you're in GmOF the amount of ki you can expend is enormous and
that's even though I'm light so no 50 pt ToD's. Even outside GmOF if I'm in a group I often find that
between stuns/QP and doing a fair amount of damage with the new AML 20 crafted wraps I don't get enough
ki to keep up the rotation I like, since mobs often die too fast.

I keep haste up using pots or epic TSG and have the abbot quiver when I just need running speed.
Just my 2 copper,
Rawel

[thegreatneil]

(34pt Horc Shintao) I stay in GM Water most of the time. When I'm against a boss or other red-named, I'll often switch to GM Fire since doing so would be +3 to-hit/damage and +0.75[W] damage (Water is -2 STR, so I'd get that back plus the +4 STR from GM fire and the +0.75[W] is from Dancing with Flame in the GMoF destiny). I'll lose a few points of AC and about 7% of my Dodge, but since I'm not supposed to be taking hits, it doesn't really hurt me. ┐(￣ー￣)┌

Even with the added .75, i still dont see fire being all that useful. (or the extra .75)
maybe its just my playstyle.

[EvilGhandi]

Solo, small groups Grandmaster Air.
Party (haste caster) Grandmaster Earth.

I'm the opposite. Monks are quite a bit squishier since the last update I run in grandmaster earth for solo play or if I need to try and hold aggro, grandmaster air to boost dps in parties with reliable heals.

I'll drop into master of oceans if I need the saves boost to bypass a particularly nasty trap. I never use fire stance.

My question is how much time folks think they will spend in Vorpal Strikes stance once they correct it, assuming you will or have taken it?

[sephiroth1084]

Solo, small groups Grandmaster Air.
Party (haste caster) Grandmaster Earth.

I do this most of the time, though I have Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing for reasonable self-hasting. Swap to Earth for those times.

[redspecter23]

Solo or no haster around - air
95% of the time in a group - earth
5% of the time in a group - water (where the few extra points of DC might matter)

I don't bother with fire at all. It's a bit more appealing with the GMF enhancements added in, but I built for max DC/utility. If I wanted massive damage, I'd roll up a barb.

[Duke-H-]

Human Ninja / GMoF / Void 4

Using GM Fire most of the time to fuel all the ki abilities. Air for bosses (if the doublestrike does not surpass the extra +w, please, do tell me).


Been contemplating running GM Ocean instead and just swap to Master Fire when i need more ki.
Or maybe taking Crane for my animal path would solve some of the ki issues with non fire.

[DevHead]

GMaster of Water almost exclusively since I like high DCs on my attacks. Since I'm almost always in a group with someone that can haste, Air isn't too useful for me.

Looking into also getting GMaster of Earth, though.

And stealing an idea in here to use Fire for Ki gen.

[Potta]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

[redspecter23]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

If I'm in water stance for higher DC's it's typically not for stunning fist which tops off near 70ish depending on buffs. I'm using it to more reliably land quivering palm chained off of an improved sunder. With quivering palm in the low 40's for DC, every point counts for epic elite one shots. That's the only time where having an instakill really really helps out. On lower difficulties, typically a stun will finish them off after a few seconds of attacking anyway.

Usually on epic elite quests I'm in earth stance anyway as the PRR becomes much more noticeable when you're getting pounded on. There are those moments, however, when having a couple extra points added on to the DC can count. It's a shame that earth has so many advantages over water that many monk players just can't justify using it at all. I was 95% of the time in water stance pre U14 (for max AC and DC's) but losing the top end AC ranking to earth hurt and the small dodge bonus added to water does not make up for it.

[Anthios888]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

While I agree that earth and air are all-around powerful, quivering palm is as competitive as ever and water stance can make a noticeable difference with it.

[DevHead]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

No, the others are not worthless; you simply place a higher value on those two stances for the reasons you outline. If someone wants to use LOTS of monk abilities, especially including the GMoF ki attacks, you're going to need a lot of ki, aka Fire Stance; yes, you can get pretty great passive generation, but that's not fast enough while you're fighting. And like others have said here, Water Stance is great for higher QP. Btw, ToD has a save, too, so a higher save for that means more 500 ticks.

Every stance has its uses; just because they don't fit your style doesn't mean they're worthless.

[Potta]

Okay, we'll consider QP.

Lets say you can land a QP ~50% of the time while not in a stance. Ocean stance would take this to 60%.

You also have an 80% chance at another 60% from TWF.

Therefore, the chance of killing the mob is equivalent to 1 minus the chances that QP failed. There's a 40% chance of failure on the mainhand attack, and a 40% chance of failure on the offhand. This 40% chance of failure has to be increased however, because there's a chance that the offhand strike will not go off at all. We derive the chance of failure for this strike by multiplying the chance of an offhand attack (0.8) with the chance for QP to succeed (0.6). We arrive at a 48% chance that the offhand attack will land a successful QP, which obviously leaves a 52% chance that it will fail. We can determine the overall probability then at 1 - 0.4 * 0.52 = 1 - 0.208 = 0.792, or a 79.2% chance of success.

This 79.2% is in contrast to a non-stanced monk who would have a:

1 - 0.5 * 0.6 = 1 - 0.3 = 0.7, or a 70% chance to kill.

How does the extra DC compare to the additional chance to proc via 13% doublestrike however? It's the same calculation with another step added in.

1 - 0.5 * 0.6 * 0.935 = 71.95%

So when you compare Air to Water for QP, you're comparing essentially 72% vs 79% when you have an even chance of landing it unstanced. Is 7% worth 9AP? I wouldn't pay that for it. Maybe if Water were also a high DPS stance, but it's not.

[Potta]

No, the others are not worthless; you simply place a higher value on those two stances for the reasons you outline. If someone wants to use LOTS of monk abilities, especially including the GMoF ki attacks, you're going to need a lot of ki, aka Fire Stance; yes, you can get pretty great passive generation, but that's not fast enough while you're fighting. And like others have said here, Water Stance is great for higher QP. Btw, ToD has a save, too, so a higher save for that means more 500 ticks.

Every stance has its uses; just because they don't fit your style doesn't mean they're worthless.

I'll put it another way. Imagine that tomorrow, in a hotfix, Turbine gave monks a new enhancement line. You could spend 9AP in it for +1hit and +1damage. Would you do it? No. Of course you wouldn't. It's a terrible investment. +1hit/damage is nice, but you can get a lot better for 9AP. That is however exactly what a Fire stance monk is doing by investing AP in his stance. What is he to do then? Use fire stance but not put AP into it? He could, but then the tradeoff for -2 Wisdom is looking a lot more lobsided if you aren't even getting a +4 stat boost out of it.

The smart thing to do would be to realise that Air is the best choice. When he needs Ki, he can swap into Fire stance for several seconds, fill himself up and switch back again. Ki does not decay that quickly. The +1 in GMoF allows me to go over 180 without it even starting to decay. If I find myself low now, I can also top up with Inner Focus on a fairly low cooldown. And failing all of that, I can decide, I'm a bit low on Ki, I can just not use abilities on this next mob. That can happen relatively often by the way, when you have so many mobs immune to your main ki abilities. Are you supposed to QP or Stun or ToD Constructs or Undead? Nope. They're punching bags to generate Ki. Furthermore, Air is the second best stance to generate Ki. I get the feeling when listening to Fire stance users that they have this impression of being in Air stance as being constantly Ki starved. It's not like that at all. It can be from time to time, but intelligent play and a little rationing goes a long way.

Water stance isn't as big of a mistake, but it still is one. ToD does similar damage in air stance after you factor in Doublestrikes. Stunning Fist DCs are so high now that +2 from water means almost nothing. QP DC is the only real benefit, and in that case you're looking at a 7% improvement compared to Air. For significantly less DPS. Not a worthwhile trade.

[HighPrior]

GM Earth almost constantly. The real reason I use Earth is the x3 crit multiplier on 19-20. Combine that with the +1 from dreadnought and fist of iron you get some consistently massive crits.
Switch to fire/air when the tank can't hold against my hate.

If i were dark though i would be more inclined to run around in Air for the doublestrike ToD.

[Uska]

Usually fire or earth I like fire for the damage boost and so I can spam ki use.