Lets talk about PM

[Daemoneyes]

hi, i am a PM and disappointed.

playing a PM in pnp may have mislead me somehow but i really expected him (in DDo) to be a Master of Death and Undeath, who seeks out path to immortality

and well, as i woke up with an lvl18 PM, i only see a crippled wizard with spells so limited that most arent worth taking and yeah thats frustrating.
Especially when i see sorc and start to think why the hell do i have so much spells when none of them get the job done?
Some examples?

learning that PM SLA cant be maximized or empowered but all other SLA can

Death Auras cant be emp/max

learning that undeath to death is limited to 4 targets..
i thought my DC was so bad and thats why only a few skelets did fall.. really i was frustrated at that moment i discovered the target limit and since then never use that spell again

learning that undead forms are not doing what the should do
like Fear immune, Piercing immune, critical immune, immune to burning blood and several other spells (seriously i cant cast them on mobs but they on my? gm fiat! nothing more..)

Symbol Death, hell 1neg lvl? thats awefull, awefull weak. why no instakill like circle?

about the wail nerf i cant say much never used the old version but the new CD is killing the fun...

and now even more fun with Poison and Disease immunity removed without a way to cure the stat damage!

also dont let us forget the summons, in PnP they are the butter and bread in DDo they are just annoying and not even annoying for the monster no, annoying for the PM
no way to control them, weak beyond imagination, and so heavy in enhancement points its ridicules
also whoever thought more then 1 summon would break balance should be fired (in lack of better words that arent censored)
even 20 of those skelets would do nothing!



and yeah sorry ended as rant but hell theres so much wrong with this class i couldnt shut up

[Simplesimon1979]

Having death aura Max/emp would be too much.

In form we are immune to burning blood and fear unless they just changed it and haven't noticed yet.

Instantly kill 4 target with 50 SP isn't a bad thing.

I don't mind the new wail ether. Pop it off and kill these two enemies and then run over and kill to archers and then run over and kill two more.

As long as you cure the disease/poison before the timer you won't get any stat damage. Hopefully restore will work in form soon.

[Kakashi67]

Still OP.

Try a bard or a ranger.

[Daemoneyes]

Having death aura Max/emp would be too much.

In form we are immune to burning blood and fear unless they just changed it and haven't noticed yet.

Instantly kill 4 target with 50 SP isn't a bad thing.

I don't mind the new wail ether. Pop it off and kill these two enemies and then run over and kill to archers and then run over and kill two more.

As long as you cure the disease/poison before the timer you won't get any stat damage. Hopefully restore will work in form soon.

why should it be too much?
when something kills me its 90% of the time one hit (and those 1hits are happening way to much...)

well i saw fear symbol above my head after hero was dispelled and burning blood did hit me

4 target for 50 sp is bad, with 50 sp u can kill whole rooms in mere seconds so why the 4 target limit? its not as if u can spam this spell, way to high CD
either unlimited targets or scrap the CD (also u need heighten for it to work later so this makes the spell even worse)

dis/poison working on undead is just so against fluff and logic, i hate it nothin more
also its not as if i have any space on my 10 shortbars left so why make us use more?
and even if, we should get at least +10 on the saves for that stuff
also giving us no way to get rid of statdamage is ridicules (and no, 1 piece people rumor about doesnt count as way to cure) btw there are enough undead who can drain our stats, that makes the missing statrestore even more ridicules

yeah i know even more rant, but i am an old man and we are supposed to rant all day
keeps us movin

[akash]

Well PMs are still the master of death, they shine in insta-killing mobs, and none other class can do better than them. I know new poison and disease thing hurts, I hope DEVs should give us a way to remove those effects since we are not dependent on divines. Going out of form to cure and again reforming in Lich will definitely hurt a lot. Also about mastering the undead slaves, I suggest DEVs should give us some new spells like mass enchant undead or things like that. If PM SLA got metamagic effects, I believe Sorcerers will stop playing the game and roll a PM.

[Daemoneyes]

Still OP.

Try a bard or a ranger.

dont see anything wrong with bard, except a few items arent granting the right bonus

never liked ranger but my mecha is doin fine so i dont see a prob with it
also i know lots of ranger who have no probs

[Daemoneyes]

Well PMs are still the master of death, they shine in insta-killing mobs, and none other class can do better than them. I know new poison and disease thing hurts, I hope DEVs should give us a way to remove those effects since we are not dependent on divines. Going out of form to cure and again reforming in Lich will definitely hurt a lot. Also about mastering the undead slaves, I suggest DEVs should give us some new spells like mass enchant undead or things like that. If PM SLA got metamagic effects, I believe Sorcerers will stop playing the game and roll a PM.

well insta killing costs most of the time way to much sp
acid rain or ice storm is more often then not way better

well i dont see PM SLA are OP with Metas
in fact a WF Archmage has the same selfheal and DC and can use Metas for SLA
also they still cost SP for PM, cause the death auras arent for free and without them a PM is really fast more dead then undead

[LordMond63]

First off, if you want to see something overpowered, look no further than a Warforged Arcane.

I'm not jealous- I play one (I'm not dumb, either)- but anyone who says that the combination of immunities and self-healing, with next to no mitigating drawbacks, doesn't make for a character at the top of the food chain is simply deep in denial.

I also play a PM, but it certainly looks like I jumped aboard that bandwagon just before it ran off the track. How, exactly, does one poison or disease something already dead? The main vulnerability of the class is to being one-hit, usually by Light damage. A WF can cast Reconstruct against high burst damage and he's fine in seconds; assuming that we PMs survive the burst damage, we have nothing equal to the Reconstruct spell as a quick-heal, so we have to hide for a bit until our non-Empowerable Death Aura or repeated casting of Negative Energy Burst heals us up....assuming that the mobs will leave us alone that long.

Along those lines.....I've noticed recently that, after I cast Death Aura, it takes a few ticks for it to begin healing me, even though my pets begin healing immediately. Not more than an inconvenience between fights, but it can be deadly during one. I've reported this as a bug, but not even gotten an autoreply as yet.

The pets aren't bad, but there needs to be a higher level Summon- maybe 7th or 8th level- that allows us to call forth an undead equivalent of what Archmages do. I think their summons top out at CR16 or so...I could live with that.

I'm not about to say that PMs totally got the shaft. I play a Bard and I tried to play a Ranger. Both of those classes needs some lubbin' in the worst way possible. But let's call on Turbine to improve all classes to make them all credible choices rather than to ask that some be nerfed to bring them down to the level that others perceive their classes to be.

[-Zephyr-]

Along those lines.....I've noticed recently that, after I cast Death Aura, it takes a few ticks for it to begin healing me, even though my pets begin healing immediately. Not more than an inconvenience between fights, but it can be deadly during one. I've reported this as a bug, but not even gotten an autoreply as yet.

Do you wear spell absorption items ?
Mantle, pale lavender, silver flame talisman ? All those will absorb the ticks of your auras until depleted, because auras are somehow considered dangerous for yourself.

[Merlin-ator]

You want to know why pale masters seem underpowered? Because we casters keep getting nerfed pretty hard. You can blame whiny powergamers for this, as their massive ego takes a hit when they don't top the kill list. "Your Wail is useful and helped me when I was surrounded by monsters. That's OP, please nerf it Turbine!" "You used your firewall and kited mobs through it when you were out of mana and used all of your pots, that's OP, nerf it!"

Like the old Armor Class system, the only people who broke necromancy were multi-TR toons with the best available gear and the best past life feats. Turbine nerfed it anyways, and I don't blame them for it. When babies start crying, you want to do anything to shut them up.

[akash]

well insta killing costs most of the time way to much sp
acid rain or ice storm is more often then not way better

well i dont see PM SLA are OP with Metas
in fact a WF Archmage has the same selfheal and DC and can use Metas for SLA
also they still cost SP for PM, cause the death auras arent for free and without them a PM is really fast more dead then undead

AM metas cost overall SP pool to purchase it's a great loss for an arcane, good WF AMs I know never take a single SLA maybe except the web. If you are worried about sp and dying frequently as PM, then obviously you are missing some items. Get yourself a GS con op, boon of undead, torc and you will be ok.

A WF can cast Reconstruct against high burst damage and he's fine in seconds; assuming that we PMs survive the burst damage, we have nothing equal to the Reconstruct spell as a quick-heal, so we have to hide for a bit until our non-Empowerable Death Aura or repeated casting of Negative Energy Burst heals us up....assuming that the mobs will leave us alone that long.

Have you tried out fully Empowered, Heightened, Maximized, Quickened Negative Energy Burst yet? I know it will cost you a lot of SP but definitely save your life better than Reconstruct. It heals my PM for over 400 hp in a second.

[Rizzia]

My only gripe with being a PM is stat damage, sure if you have a cleric/Fvs with harm slotted they can remove it, but 90% dont carry it. Oh and they cant be bought either, so no-one can scroll you either..well a PM can trade-in for them, but I think thier BtC.
If we could stat damage/poison undead mobs then I wouldnt have an objection, but we cant. So an undead form PM should be immune.

Tell a lie..theres also the light damage. Only undead mobs, that I can remember, that naturally take increased light damage are vampires. Yet all PM forms take increased light damage, and of course the way mobs spells work is different to our own, which results in searinglight spam across 90% of the game, or the occasional sunburst-insta death on a failed save.
In the new content its Divine punishment and while yes mobs version hits less (which it should since we dont have inflated hps) it ticks faster. A tier 1 DP on EE hits for 115ish light dam a tick on a lich form PM (about the same as a tier 2 on EH). I didnt hang around to find out what a tier 2 hit for.

As for limited spells..there are tons of necromancy spells, Not a whole lot do damage, but theres a nice range of debuffs etc.

[DarkForte]

hi, i am a PM and disappointed.

playing a PM in pnp may have mislead me somehow but i really expected him (in DDo) to be a Master of Death and Undeath, who seeks out path to immortality

and well, as i woke up with an lvl18 PM, i only see a crippled wizard with spells so limited that most arent worth taking and yeah thats frustrating.
Especially when i see sorc and start to think why the hell do i have so much spells when none of them get the job done? You seem to be approaching your PM with the mindset of a sorcerer. They play as two completely different classes.
Some examples?

learning that PM SLA cant be maximized or empowered but all other SLA can Again, you seem to want to play your wizard like a sorcerer. Your SLAs are not your power, your high DC spells (and not only necromancy) are your true force.

Death Auras cant be emp/max Max-emp death aura would amount to casting it at 90 + 90 + 75 + 150 = 405 spell power. That amounts to (22-28) * 505% = 111 - 141 healing every 2 seconds, for over 2 minutes, and if that doesn't seem broken to you, I don't know what would convince you.

learning that undeath to death is limited to 4 targets..
i thought my DC was so bad and thats why only a few skelets did fall.. really i was frustrated at that moment i discovered the target limit and since then never use that spell again

learning that undead forms are not doing what the should do
like Fear immune, Piercing immune, critical immune, immune to burning blood and several other spells (seriously i cant cast them on mobs but they on my? gm fiat! nothing more..) Equip a medium fort item and enter undead form. If you get critted like that, I'm calling shenanigans. Also, I've never been hit with burning blood in form, it normally shows up as immune.

Symbol Death, hell 1neg lvl? thats awefull, awefull weak. why no instakill like circle? You can kite mobs through it, to amount for a lot more.
about the wail nerf i cant say much never used the old version but the new CD is killing the fun... Complaining about nerfs you couldn't measure?

and now even more fun with Poison and Disease immunity removed without a way to cure the stat damage! This one I'll have to agree with, it's ridiculous

also dont let us forget the summons, in PnP they are the butter and bread in DDo they are just annoying and not even annoying for the monster no, annoying for the PM
no way to control them, weak beyond imagination, and so heavy in enhancement points its ridicules
also whoever thought more then 1 summon would break balance should be fired (in lack of better words that arent censored)
even 20 of those skelets would do nothing! Summons are weak for everyone, not only PMs.



and yeah sorry ended as rant but hell theres so much wrong with this class i couldnt shut up

Responses in RED

[Burradin]

LOL, hoping the OP is joking as I have solo'd EPIC after EPIC since the expansion and do not even shrine most of the time. To borrow from Steve Jobs (who I never liked), maybe you are holding it wrong.

[Qezuzu]

Palemasters are extremely powerful. Even while they cry bloody murder from the Wail nerf, they're still one of the most powerful classes in the game.

[luvirini]

Basically palemasters are overpowered only if they are overgeared. They are gimps until they get the gear.

I was so rudely reminded about it trying to solo bastion of power on hard at level 19 before update 14 on a wizard that I have soloed elite without any problems at level 20.

The old build that soloed it on elite was a level 20 drow 28 point build with less hitpoints(about 470) and lower necro DC(40) than the two lives later at 36 point half elf level 19 with 550+ hp and 41 necro DC.

After 2 failures I gave up, got my level 20 xp in challenges, leveled up to 20, got my epic gear and went back on elite and completed the elite boringly easily. Even though at level 19 I had both conc op and torc to give me spellpoints back, but the incoming damage was just too much.

I have soloed that same quest on hard with a totally ungeared 32 point build sorceror with fairly big difficulty, but successfully, at level 18, and with a moderately geared 32 point build favored soul at level 19 with fairly small problems.

Also a thing about palemasters is that their selfhealing get to be quite ineffective at higher levels(>20), the burst that heals for 80-150 points just does not cut it when the trash on epic elites hits you for 150/hit and you have 750 total hitpoints.

[sephiroth1084]

hi, i am a PM and disappointed.

playing a PM in pnp may have mislead me somehow but i really expected him (in DDo) to be a Master of Death and Undeath, who seeks out path to immortality

and well, as i woke up with an lvl18 PM, i only see a crippled wizard with spells so limited that most arent worth taking and yeah thats frustrating.
Especially when i see sorc and start to think why the hell do i have so much spells when none of them get the job done?
You are clearly doing something wrong.

Some examples?

learning that PM SLA cant be maximized or empowered but all other SLA can
They never could and it never mattered. The fact is, other SLAs cost spell points, while the PM SLAs cost HP, which you regenerate via Death Aura. They are cheap and spammy, and don't need to deal more damage.
Death Auras cant be emp/max
It never could and it never mattered. The Radiant Servant's healing aura can't be Maximized or Empowered either, as far as I know. Healing for 30-90 a tick, every 2 seconds, is plenty of healing for nearly all situations. If you want to see how OP it would be if that number were doubled, go run some tough content with another PM, where you make sure to stay within aura range all the time. It's ridiculously powerful! No need for it.
learning that undeath to death is limited to 4 targets..
i thought my DC was so bad and thats why only a few skelets did fall.. really i was frustrated at that moment i discovered the target limit and since then never use that spell again
Oh noes! Not killing 4 targets for 50 SP!? Whatever shall you do?! Why are you complaining about a good spell with a strong effect? What spell could you be throwing that does as much for as little? If you're running low level content, nuke. If you're running high level content, your nukes are not going to be killing stuff in one shot, and probably cost more than 50 SP anyway. Yeah, you may be hitting twice as many creatures, but it will take longer, and cost more SP ultimately.

learning that undead forms are not doing what the should do
like Fear immune, Piercing immune, critical immune, immune to burning blood and several other spells (seriously i cant cast them on mobs but they on my? gm fiat! nothing more..)
Some of those may be bugs. Also, keep in mind that you gain some undead traits, but are not, in fact, undead.
Symbol Death, hell 1neg lvl? thats awefull, awefull weak. why no instakill like circle?
Pro Tip: Kite stuff back and forth through your Symbol. Those neg levels add up fast! And neg levels got a boost, and are twice as effective as they used to be (-2 to stuff, instead of -1).
about the wail nerf i cant say much never used the old version but the new CD is killing the fun...
The cooldown could stand to be lower, but it's still very effective.
and now even more fun with Poison and Disease immunity removed without a way to cure the stat damage!
Yes, this is annoying, mostly because they took away the PM's immunity without giving back a solution to deal with their new vulnerability. Finally, a really legitimate complaint!
also dont let us forget the summons, in PnP they are the butter and bread in DDo they are just annoying and not even annoying for the monster no, annoying for the PM
no way to control them, weak beyond imagination, and so heavy in enhancement points its ridicules
also whoever thought more then 1 summon would break balance should be fired (in lack of better words that arent censored)
even 20 of those skelets would do nothing!

Summons in DDO suck. Period. Apparently that can't be helped. It's a shame that a bunch of pieces of the PM has to do with a feature that is utterly worthless, but the solution is to just save the AP. Not that hard.

and yeah sorry ended as rant but hell theres so much wrong with this class i couldnt shut up

Comments.

[Handpicked]

hi, i am a PM and disappointed.

playing a PM in pnp may have mislead me somehow but i really expected him (in DDo) to be a Master of Death and Undeath, who seeks out path to immortality

and well, as i woke up with an lvl18 PM, i only see a crippled wizard with spells so limited that most arent worth taking and yeah thats frustrating.
Especially when i see sorc and start to think why the hell do i have so much spells when none of them get the job done?
Some examples?

learning that PM SLA cant be maximized or empowered but all other SLA can

Death Auras cant be emp/max

learning that undeath to death is limited to 4 targets..
i thought my DC was so bad and thats why only a few skelets did fall.. really i was frustrated at that moment i discovered the target limit and since then never use that spell again

learning that undead forms are not doing what the should do
like Fear immune, Piercing immune, critical immune, immune to burning blood and several other spells (seriously i cant cast them on mobs but they on my? gm fiat! nothing more..)

Symbol Death, hell 1neg lvl? thats awefull, awefull weak. why no instakill like circle?

about the wail nerf i cant say much never used the old version but the new CD is killing the fun...

and now even more fun with Poison and Disease immunity removed without a way to cure the stat damage!

also dont let us forget the summons, in PnP they are the butter and bread in DDo they are just annoying and not even annoying for the monster no, annoying for the PM
no way to control them, weak beyond imagination, and so heavy in enhancement points its ridicules
also whoever thought more then 1 summon would break balance should be fired (in lack of better words that arent censored)
even 20 of those skelets would do nothing!



and yeah sorry ended as rant but hell theres so much wrong with this class i couldnt shut up

/signed

I waited to see what update 14 would be like before buying MotU. My credit card was sitting on my dresser. After playing my rogue and seeing the weird stuff like no trap parts I switched to my PM for the rest of the day. I was so glad I waited. Soon as I saw my PM getting poisoned that was enough for me. Credit card is back in the wallet.

[mwgarn]

My biggest problem with pm post u14 is I spend most of my time standing in my wall of fire or ice storms now.. Why not be a sorc instead...

[doomboy]

when i hard that your symbol of death is only giving one neg levels, i was a little confused. do you mean on a save? or in general? because most of the time, my symbol instakills. but in the end, PMs are still very powerful, especially in the demonweb the PM SLAs are very handy, specially as they use HP so you can save SP, not to mention that a cleric can heal you if you are not in form, giving you extra ammo
also, PMs are immune to neg levels. take that into account.

if you don't like it, don't play it. that's all i have to say. in the end, me and my PM kick ***