The Myth of Pay To Win

[CountHenri]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

Its an interesting concept ~ if item X is available on the DDO Store for Y dollars Player Z WINS!

How do they win though?

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

What does "winning" in DDO actually mean?

There is no ~ Devs joke on the Completionist Feat aside ~ definitive "You WIN DDO" moment...

Before anybody says "well if they could buy everything" ~ they already can...

You've seen it ~ LFMs with "Quest X Paying Y for Z Dont join if you need Z" or at the start of a run someone says "I'll buy Z" or something pops in a chest and somebody asks "Is that for roll?" there is a delay and it gets passed to another player who obviously bought it (OK if its between guildies that is different ~ thats a given running in a group with a high proportion of same guilded players ~ if its non guilded players however)...

So we have our hypothetical player who has bought everything they want ~ do they win?

Umm how about no?

You see the thing with an MMO is that while it has a high population that population is based on a lot of churn at the low end and a relatively small relatively stable population at the high end...

Reputation matters...

You can buy all the gear you want but if you're a tool you're still a tool in eMaralith weilding an eSoS you'd have to be crazy to think otherwise...

In fact the players who have aggressively bought their gear are the ones most blacklisted ~ because they just cant play well...

The only reason I could see for people taking a Play To Win approach in DDO would be to try and break into the high end raiding/epic scene (I assume the acceptance into that would be the Win for them) but these are the people most vigoriously rejected...

Conclusion ~ Myth : Busted...

[Sigava]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

You seem to be taking the phrase "Pay to Win" a bit too literally.

Few people think you can actually Win DDO.

Most people complaining/commenting on Pay to Win are referring to how throwing money at the DDO store can assist in overcoming obstacles or accomplishing goals easier or faster than through skill or hard work alone.

The two most obvious examples of this are Spell Point Potions and the new Tomes of Learning. A healer with $50 bucks to throw away on spell point potions from the DDO store can spam Heal/Mass Heal/Mass Cures till the cows come home and just chug potions to make up the difference. A healer relying on skill, experience and gear alone has to work to increase his or her spell point capacity, and learn how to carefully manage spell points as well as read the encounter. In this situation, the person with a tremendous amount of disposable income has "payed to win" a specific encounter.

Similarly, Tomes of Learning allow one to spend real world money in order to accomplish a goal faster, namely achieving level 20. Tomes of Learning provide a stacks-with-everything bonus to experience gained from quests, allowing one to get to 20 faster. A player relying on hard work has to earn about 10-20% more experience total to make up the difference provided by a Greater Tome of Learning. In this case the player with a tremendous amount of disposable income has "payed to win" a faster trip to level 20, saving a lot of time and effort.

There's nothing inherently wrong or immoral about dumping money into the game to get something easier. Such individuals are the driving force behind new content development as well as keeping the lights on around here. Continuing on the subscription "Everyone gets fair treatment" MMO model, Turbine was probably 12-18 months away from having to shut down some or all of the servers. Converting to the micro-transaction "Pay to Win" MMO model (and some believe pioneering it among major MMOs), Turbine has flourished.

So sure, that freshly level 20 Favored Soul might have pounded 30 Major SP pots (which was only about 1/20th of the number he bought when they were TOTALLY A DEAL AT 20% OFF) to heal his first ToD, but he didn't just pay for himself to win. He payed for all of us to win because it's those people who've only got 90 minutes a night to play cause they have a 6 figure salaried job plus a family that demands most of their time and consequently throw money at the game since their time is more valuable than $50 bucks bi-weekly who pay Turbine's salaries.

[Dandonk]

So, you're OK with it if Turbine starts selling eSOS in the Store?

Pay2Win is, for me, just a short hand way of saying: "Paying RL cash to get raid-equivalent loot or other significant in game bonuses that are not (except for the extremely lucky in some cases) available in the game otherwise (etc)"

You do not feel like you've "won" something when you finally get that eclaw set? or eSOS? or completionist? At least in the sense of accomplishment?

[Urjak]

...

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

...

What? I don't get a supermodel when I win DDO??? :O O_O ... guess I need to find some other game

seriously though:
P2W means you can just spend some money to be actually better in the game without investing lots of time and having luck ... examples have been mentioned by others^^

ofc in a FTP model with micro-transactions like DDO uses, there is always some degree of P2W ... the important part is balance here ... noone minds Turbine selling plain +2 weapons ... the other extreme would be if they started selling epic gear ... the right point is important and IMO apart from the +3 tomes they did a quite well job here (yeah sp potions might be up for discussion ... but IMO you either drink them like water, then you have to have a really well paid job to buy all those pots ... or you use them liberally ... in the later case, chances are that you will learn better sp management with the time and thus won't need store pots after a while anyways ... IMO not such a big deal)

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

So, you're OK with it if Turbine starts selling eSOS in the Store?

Pay2Win is, for me, just a short hand way of saying: "Paying RL cash to get raid-equivalent loot or other significant in game bonuses that are not (except for the extremely lucky in some cases) available in the game otherwise (etc)"

You do not feel like you've "won" something when you finally get that eclaw set? or eSOS? or completionist? At least in the sense of accomplishment?

Doesn't matter to me. I've never pulled an SoS, or bothered to farm one, and I've done fine without it. And while I do feel a sense of accomplishment (or more often, relief) at pulling this or that rare item or grinding out enough to finish crafting whatever, that doesn't have any bearing on anyone else. And someone's ability to buy stack of pots in the store doesn't diminish how I feel about finding a major pot in an otherwise empty end reward list.

Everything else is just plain envy.

[Kmnh]

If you pull out your credit card and buy a stack of 100 store pots to drag this horrible party to the finish line, you are paying to win. Simple enough. That's not a bad thing. Someone has to pay to keep the servers up

[My2Cents]

I win.

You can all go home now.

I win every day that DDO provides me with entertainment, an escape from the outside world, or personals atisfaction, or any combination of the above.

To me, online PVE entertainment is about collaboration and competing with one's own inner goals, or should be, anyway. The only issue with payment is if the payment system creates a situation where important features become substantially unavailable to those who can't or won't pay. In that case, the enjoyment AND support model of the game are threatened. If that problem is kept in check, then it seems a reasonable accommodation has been reached.

But Dats Just Mee!

[varusso]

I couldnt care less what they sell in the DDO store. For all I care they could put an item in there that gives you an automatic quest completion on Elite/Epic, with all applicable bonuses. Doesnt mean I would buy it, and I really dont care if someone else does -- they only short themselves on the actual entertainment value of the game. Of course, such an item WOULD be bought by the buckets full -- by players who would quickly grow bored and move on if they kept doing it, rather like playing with godmode active. <waves fondly> So long and thanks for all the fish!

Fortunately, Turbine does a very good job of thinking store items through and measuring their potential impact on the game. Items that overpower a toon and cause them to lose interest in the game as a result (lack of challenge) are bad for business. They make more $$ by selling non-game-breaking items over and over to people who STAY in the game.

The vast majority of the store items are cosmetic, and those that arent, are focused on convenience rather than real power. Does a stack of SP pots or an XP boost offer an advantage? Of course it does, or it wouldnt be worth buying (since it doesnt make your armor all pretty and stuff). But it is really more a convenience than anything. You dont have to manage your SP as much, and you dont have to farm up the better gear to help you conserve/replenish (SP pots). You dont have to hit Bloody Crypt, Shadow Crypt, VON, Vale, etc. quite so many times to get to cap (XP boosts/tomes).

Are these technically power boosts? From a certain perspective, yes. Do I REALLY care if someone P2Ws their way through a quest, even if i am in it? No, not really. I am about 1000 times more concerned about the mob/trap/chest in front of me than what is in the backpack (or wallet) of the player beside me.

[CR-Shadowborn]

I couldnt care less what they sell in the DDO store. For all I care they could put an item in there that gives you an automatic quest completion on Elite/Epic, with all applicable bonuses. Doesnt mean I would buy it, and I really dont care if someone else does -- they only short themselves on the actual entertainment value of the game. Of course, such an item WOULD be bought by the buckets full -- by players who would quickly grow bored and move on if they kept doing it, rather like playing with godmode active. <waves fondly> So long and thanks for all the fish!

Fortunately, Turbine does a very good job of thinking store items through and measuring their potential impact on the game. Items that overpower a toon and cause them to lose interest in the game as a result (lack of challenge) are bad for business. They make more $$ by selling non-game-breaking items over and over to people who STAY in the game.

The vast majority of the store items are cosmetic, and those that arent, are focused on convenience rather than real power. Does a stack of SP pots or an XP boost offer an advantage? Of course it does, or it wouldnt be worth buying (since it doesnt make your armor all pretty and stuff). But it is really more a convenience than anything. You dont have to manage your SP as much, and you dont have to farm up the better gear to help you conserve/replenish (SP pots). You dont have to hit Bloody Crypt, Shadow Crypt, VON, Vale, etc. quite so many times to get to cap (XP boosts/tomes).

Are these technically power boosts? From a certain perspective, yes. Do I REALLY care if someone P2Ws their way through a quest, even if i am in it? No, not really. I am about 1000 times more concerned about the mob/trap/chest in front of me than what is in the backpack (or wallet) of the player beside me.

^^This +1 to you Sir
As long as the DDO store is balanced then who really cares what they sell in it.
I just don't want to see stuff like Torc's or rings of spell storing and the parts to make them epic available in the store.

[Antheal]

So, you're OK with it if Turbine starts selling eSOS in the Store?

Pay2Win is, for me, just a short hand way of saying: "Paying RL cash to get raid-equivalent loot or other significant in game bonuses that are not (except for the extremely lucky in some cases) available in the game otherwise (etc)"

You do not feel like you've "won" something when you finally get that eclaw set? or eSOS? or completionist? At least in the sense of accomplishment?

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

[Urjak]

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

many reasons:
.) RL wealth should not translate in in-game wealth
.) What's the point of playing end-game at all, if you could simply do some over-hours and just buy it from the DDO-store
.) If you then buy every single piece of epic gear from the DDO store ... why play endgame at all?
.) Then you think some more TRs might make you more powerful ... buy them in the DDO store too ... yay triple completionist bu-ya! => Why TR any more?
.) No point in TRing, no point in running end-game, no point in gaming? ... once you played this game for a certain period of time, the biggest motivation simply is "getting that shiny"^^ ... yeah when everything is new ... exploring is more than enough fun ... but once you ran each and every quest 20+ times ... they are simply becoming stale ... you simply got two options then: quit or try-to-get-all-those-shinies ... if you can simply buy all those shinies ... meh ... also the content would need to be designed only for those that have everything in order to at least keep some of those players => what about those that didn't spend several thousand euroes / dollars / whatever on the store? they would then simply have the choice of either only sticking to low levels or buy all those things too => very very bad design => in the end: those that buy everything won't play (no challenge / new content / other things to strive for), those that don't buy everything won't play either since they won't survive endgame content that is now balanced only for those that have everything => noone plays => DDO dies => won't happen

lastly: don't get me wrong ... those shinies aren't the only motivation^^ ... I mean when level cap was 16 we kept on playing too^^ ... simply because we created one alt after the other ... but most of us who play this game for years have somewhat exhausted those options too^^ ... and yeah the game itself is ofc still fun after 4 (or more) years of gaming ... but just the gameplay itself, without anything to strive for: not enough to keep me playing

you could also compare that to my favorite sports: rock climbing:
the challenge is the interesting thing ... ofc climbing itself is fun too and I often climb stuff that is easy for me ... but in the end? I want to climb hard stuff where I really feel satisfaction when I am finally able to do it ... if I could go in a shop and buy something that all of a sudden turns me in a godlike climber (without any training or side effects), better than anyone has ever been / will ever be ... would I buy it? of course! ... would I have much fun afterwards? probably not ... the very same is true for DDO

since this already got so long again: final words: an mmo needs goals, remove the goals and you have no mmo

[Dandonk]

Why is that a problem? I mean other than "it doesn't seem fair" why exactly is this A Bad Thing, really?

Because it takes the sense of accomplishment and the challenge out of the game. It's just like cheat codes in single player games. Sure, it's cool to have God Mode on and waltz through the game... but then you end up getting bored and not playing it anymore.
That's what I think will happen if too many high-level things become available in the game - people will get bored with DDO, and leave. New players will see that the only way to get geared like everyone else (we already have "be geared" LFMs - if people who do not buy stuff from the Store will start to have trouble getting into PUGs, this will be plainly bad) is to pay - and many will stop, rather than pay to be in on it.

Having convenience stuff and content in the Store is great. With how vanity pets have sold in other games, why not let people buy more of that here?
Turbine should definitely make money. It's ultimately what keeps the game going. But I think selling raid loot-equivalent stuff in the Store is bad for the longer term. Sure, it sells right now - but when people "have it all", many get bored and leave to find new challenges elsewhere.

[zwiebelring]

) If you then buy every single piece of epic gear from the DDO store ... why play endgame at all?

Building a toon with several past lives and keeping the focus on TRing for those past lives while not ''wasting'' time to gather the items you just bought.

Finally, to enjoy whatever you wanted out of that idea, I can imagine, it is playing with a laid back attitude because you saw too much work in all the items. No problem with me, I earn the money, I spend the money and nobody has ever the right to judge over that without being judged himself.

This all is a problem when the actual features or whatever cannot be achieved without spending real money any more. As long as spending money is an option, it is fine, you can utter critics over an option but in the end it is your decision whether taking it or not.

Anyway your question ca be turned easily back on you:
Where is the point in playing for hours for days when you can buy it directly and save yourself time for enjoying endgame?

It is all about personal opinions and playstyle. As long as you can accept others playstyle and group with people who share yours, everything is fine.

[supot]

Some things are game changing,

TORC,
Epic Ring of Spell Storing,
eSOS?

But +3 Supreme Tomes are not that big of a deal. You get 1/2 of +2 Damage, +1 to Hit, +1 DC, +20 HP, +2 AC,

SP Pots can be game changing, but they are consumable, and mostly what you can achieve with pots, someone else can with proper tactics, a good group and no pots. Yes, its paying to win out of convenience when you're undermanned or in a weak group or soloing.

But what you can buy in the DDO Store cannot make you Better than a good group. It cannot make you Godlike. It can make you match or exceed slightly the power of a Good group for a small period of time. That's not too unfair.

There are many other things in the game that are not fair. If you somehow get into a high level guild, you are way ahead. If you have friends that are veteran players who are rich and help you out, then you are ahead. If you have a guild or friends that run raids regularly and teach you, you are ahead. If you have guildies and vet friends who are going to pass you the loot you need, you are ahead. If you have a Crafted friend who's level 150/200, you're ahead.

Similarly, there are also BTA and BTC items, but money isn't BTA and not everything is.

Turbine does a good job in keeping the DDO store and other areas of the game Fair.. Fair enough to be fun.

[Nagantor]

Does if feel less of an accomplishment to get rare items when others can simply buy them? Yes. Does it hurt the game? Yes. (You can't guess experience of the player from equipment anymore.) But would it really destroy the game? Probably not, unlikely it'll ever get put to test as well. They do look out to keep enough carrots in the game.
So, pay2win doesn't really destroy all to much. What would really kill the game (and does it for many other "f2p" games is: pay2play. Many games have the model of get free start and then pay lots of money or you can't compete at all anymore. If you see potions giving special buffs for money only and quests which are 99% fail without those buffs - then you see a bad model. Yes, people can pay to get e.g. xp faster - why would it hurt me? I'm not in a race to reach lvl 20 quicker then others. I feel more offended when a healer chugs a ton of pots in a quest. Because this means either the healer is bad and compensating, or the group isn't up to the challenge and the healers compensate it. If everyone works together, we have fun as a group and get the quest done without major trouble or ressource usage (compensating bad luck, lag or whatever through skill and thought) - then I win ddo.

[mobrien316]

.) What's the point of playing end-game at all, if you could simply do some over-hours and just buy it from the DDO-store
.) If you then buy every single piece of epic gear from the DDO store ... why play endgame at all?

I play DDO because I enjoy it. I assume that is why most people play it.

I agree with the OP. “Pay to win” is a myth, for the most part.

Bad players are annoying to group with. That is a fact. A lot of people who believe that also believe that enabling anyone to buy the +5 Goggles of Awesomeness in the store, when other people get them by running a certain raid 5 times, 50 times, or 500 times, means that bad players will then have access to items that only “good” players should have access to. Now you have a bad player running around with the awesome item that someone else ran a raid 500 times to get, which equals “DOOM!” in a lot of player’s eyes.

My response to that has always been, “So what?” If I am in a raid with eleven other people, and six of them are wielding an eSoS, why would it matter to me how each person got theirs? If one guy ran eVoN five times and got it, and another guy ran it fifty times and got, and another guy ran it once with his guild and had everyone pass him all their stuff to make it, and another guy bought his in the store, who cares?

The only thing that matters is if they can play. If they are idiots who can’t play, I don’t care if they “earned” their eSoS by grinding that raid a thousand times; they are still idiots and I don’t want to group with them. If they are good players, I really don’t care how they got their gear. Why would I? What possible difference could it make to me? If DDO decides to sell raid loot in the store and someone buys something, how does that affect me? There are literally an infinite number of items in DDO; how many items other people have don’t affect my chances of getting one at all.

The only exception would be if you could buy things in the store (for cash only, not for TP that you get for free) that could not get in-game. If Free-to-Play was limited to level 5, and you had to pay to level up past that, I could see the rationale behind labeling that “pay to win.” If you could buy a permanent haste item in the store, or a +10 tome, and you couldn’t get one anywhere in-game, that would be more along the lines of “pay to win” because you have to spend real money in order to get the items. Needless to say, none of that is happening.

I think the “pay to win is DOOM!” philosophy is largely based upon the irrational obsession some players have with other people’s loot. The same philosophy that causes people to freak out over who passed what piece of loot to who, and who rolled on what item despite playing this class or that class, is the same ideation that professes doom by labeling the DDO store as Pay to Win.

If you are in the Harbor with your 4th level character who started at level one, and you join a group with five other 4th level characters, does it matter to anyone how they got there? If one guy earned veteran status through favor, and another guy bought his at the store, and another guy started at level one and used store-bought 30% pots to get to level four, does any of that matter? Of course not. All that matters is if the other players in the group can play. If they can play you will enjoy yourself (or, at least, you should.) If they are lousy players you will get out of that group at the first opportunity, right?

[zwiebelring]

Does it hurt the game? Yes.

No. It only hurts the ego of some people. And it influences the pvp area. But pvp is no big platform in DDO. Actually, with the 3rd time named item reward the term of pay-to-win became obsolete.

I worked for my unlocked Pale Lavendar, first I was lucky to pull it and much much later I found people who made the grinding for essence pieces fun and not work. Then, 6 months later, they changed the reward system and now? Everybody has a little Stone orbiting around his head. Does it hurt me? No, because I had my achievement and fun that time.

It affected solo achievements though because some things are only possible with particular items or stats. But what exactly can you buy to win in DDO? Sio far, I only see longterm items like Tomes which anyway are a one time investment now. Then, next important option are major sp potions.

Hell yeah, when I want to get a quest done for the heck of it I spend money for TPs/pot.s if I want to. That does not give me any incentive to not practise being better it just is a a opportunity cost claculation. I'd rather spend 300 TPs then give up after 2 hours.

[Urjak]

Building a toon with several past lives and keeping the focus on TRing for those past lives while not ''wasting'' time to gather the items you just bought.

Finally, to enjoy whatever you wanted out of that idea, I can imagine, it is playing with a laid back attitude because you saw too much work in all the items. No problem with me, I earn the money, I spend the money and nobody has ever the right to judge over that without being judged himself.

This all is a problem when the actual features or whatever cannot be achieved without spending real money any more. As long as spending money is an option, it is fine, you can utter critics over an option but in the end it is your decision whether taking it or not.

Anyway your question ca be turned easily back on you:
Where is the point in playing for hours for days when you can buy it directly and save yourself time for enjoying endgame?

It is all about personal opinions and playstyle. As long as you can accept others playstyle and group with people who share yours, everything is fine.

first: if you bought all epic items ... why not buy the TRs as well? ;p You see where this leads to?

second: A big problem is temptation ... its similiar to "I should loose weight, but that ham looks sooooo tasty^^" ... once you have the epic stuff in the store, people WILL buy it ... for some people that will be okay ... but for most not ... again: an mmo needs goal or "carrots"^^ ... remove them and players will stop playing ... why? what was the highest number you replayed one and the same single player game? Once? sure. Twice? Rarely. 37 times? NEVER!

[TempestAlphaOmega]

What is P2W?

Everyone has a slightly different view on what exactly constitutes this, that is just human nature, but I expect that before this thread is closed there will be arguments over what it absolutely has to mean.

Is it the ability to "win" by having the best premium items only available for purchase with real funds?
Is it the ability to "win" by purchasing quality or rare items with real funds?
Is it the ability to "win" by having any item that influences game play available for real funds?

I find the first one anoying in a PvP enviroment but in a PvE enviroment such as DDO I really don't care that much (if at all). The second and third versions don't come into play at all.

Too many people try to tell others how they should be playing the game, how they have to do things to find enjoyment, how things have to be for them to be challanged, all based on what they believe is true for themselves.

You want to buy that eSoS go ahead, I really don't care. I find my enjoyment in this game based on my own experiences and anyone else's luck or wallet doesn't excite me (well except for my wife's ).

I know there are people tempted to explain to me how the way I feel is wrong, I have seen the points made in prior threads about this topic, if you feel the need to repeat them go ahead, that is what forums are for.

hmmm, just realized I need more popcorn, dang it. How do they expect me to enjoy these threads at work when there is no popcorn.

[LightBear]

Pay to win is allready in the game.

The most noticable are the true hearts of wood, buy enough of them and eventually you will win ddo, officially that is.