W18/R2 - Feedback on feat/enahancement path

[MelvinTheMediocre]

Hi, I'm planning my first cahracter and could use some adice on feats/enhancements. I'm having trouble understanding if you get more punch per spell point if you take maximize/heighten and reduce the costs, or if you just power up the spells of your choice with enhancements. I see the big advantage max/height coming in flexibility as they could be applied to all damage types, but I suspect for that reason maxing out 2 damage types will give you more damage output potential. And for that matter, by concentrating so hard on damage per spell point, am I really hosing myself in crowd control and utility spells? Here is what I was thinking of doing:

Halfling, Rogue at level 1 and level 7ish, wiz every other level.
Level 1 (AP: 0/4)
Level 2 (AP: 4/8) Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Frost Manipulation I, Flame Manipulation I, Extra Dragonmark Use I
Level 3 (AP: 10/12) Wizard Improved Maximizing I, Glacial Spellcasting I, Wizard Intelligence I, Combustive Spellcasting I
Level 4 (AP: 14/16) Frost Manipulation II, Deadly Ice I, Flame Manipulation II, Deadly Flame I
Level 5 (AP: 15/20) Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I
Level 6 (AP: 21/24)Wizard Energy of the Scholar II, Frost Manipulation III, Flame Manipulation III, Extra Dragonmark Use II
Level 7 (AP: 27/28) Wizard Improved Maximizing II, Deadly Ice II, Deadly Flame II
Level 8 (AP: 30/32) Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II, Frost Manipulation IV
Level 9 (AP: 35/36) Wizard Intelligence II, Flame Manipulation IV
Level 10(AP: 38/40) Extra Dragonmark Use III
Level 11(AP: 44/44) Flame Manipulation V, Wizard Energy of the Scholar III, Frost Manipulation V, Deadly Ice III
Level 12(AP: 45/48) Deadly Flame III
Level 13(AP: 51/52) Wizard Improved Maximizing III
Level 14(AP: 56/56) Wizard Subtle Spellcasting III, Frost Manipulation VI, Flame Manipulation VI
Level 15(AP: 58/60) Deadly Ice IV, Deadly Flame IV
Level 16(AP: 64/64) Wizard Intelligence III
Level 17(AP: 68/68) Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV
Level 18(AP: 72/72) Frost Manipulation VII, Flame Manipulation VII, Combustive Spellcasting II, Combustive Spellcasting III
Level 19(AP: 76/76) Extra Dragonmark Use IV
Level 20(AP: 80/80) Wizard Subtle Spellcasting IV

Feats
1 Least Dragon Mark
2 Maximize Spell Spell
3 Lesser Dragon Mark
6 Greter Dragon Mark
6 Insightful Evasion
9 Augument Summoning
12 Mental Toughness
12 Spell Penetration
15 Greater Spell Penetration
17 Improved Mental Toughness
18 Heighten Spell

[danotmano1998]

You're spending an awful lot of your build on those dragonmarks.
Are they truly worth it in your eyes?

Also:
Threat reduction 4 is a highly questionable choice. Any of the threat reductions are, IMO.
Spend those AP's somewhere else. Like toughness enhancements.

And:
Your thoughts of upping 2 damage lines is a good one. I'd highly recommend that you max at least one and put at the very least 1 ap in your secondary, if not more.

Augment summon: Just no. Not worth the cost of the feat, IMO. On an Arti, maybe. On a wizard? Just no.

Finally: Take a spell focus. At least one. More is better. I would recommend either Greater Spell Focus Necromancy or Enchantment. Or Greater in one, and regular focus in the other. Wizards are all about spell DC's. Not to use the class for it's greatest strength is almost criminal in my eyes.

Ok, ONE more question. You're not taking any prestige AP's with this build? Why?

[goodspeed]

I'm not sure but I'd really take the PM prestige. (I'd say AM for the extra sp but your not a robot or a half elf to qualify for the cleric)

I'd drop all those dragonmarks and augment and go for some kind of school, probably necro with that race, Maybe a toughness, a greater necro or some secondary school like enchant, And then either a greater or maybe extend.

Though aside from haging extend really kind of sucks anymore. I'd prolly quicken for the longer cc spells.

Also i'd drop the Wizard Subtle stuff and I'd prolly drop the flame stuff around lv 15. And I'd invest fully into flame in the starter levels and get yourself a superior inferno clicky or 2 to get the most out of fireball/firewall. And I would invest in the heighten and max line in action points to save on spamming stuff.

Why halfling though? I mean human would net you an extra feat as well as a 2 choices of stats. Helf would offer you the cleric dili for heal scrolls. The plain elf would offer you an extra 4 spell pen, and the robot is just symmetrical for any mage because you get the spells and scrolls to heal yourself with no umd needed.

And whether you want to do dmg or cc is the determining factor. In the beginning pretty much it didn't matter because if you have firewall that was it. (god I miss firewall lol)

Anyway but sorc's still had it because of the extra sp and fast cast. Then wiz's got their pre's and they quickly rose. With the AM and evocation line they could really spam the dmg through sla's. But when sorc's got their pre's specifically meant for dmg in all forms, wizards sla's also got pimp slapped with timers effectively killing the evo line.

So as I said whether you want to dmg or cc is the factor. Wizards are cc. They got the feats, and the pre's for it. But not so much on the dmg part. Not without expending a bit of sp. Sorcerers are the oposite, they get low cost sla's with usually reasonable timers to deal in dmg. Theoretically they could cc but ud need some past life backing and all the gear for it. (Note im talking elite and epic and not normal.)

[MelvinTheMediocre]

First of all, I didn't take a prestige because one of them decreases your spell points, and the other keeps you from getting healed. In fact I'm afraid a friendly cleric might accidentally kill me.
The archmage *might* pay off if you can find some spells that you use all the time, but it looks like getting the enhancements are really expensive in terms of prereqs. But I have to reiterate that this will be my first character and I can only look at numbers and have no experience to draw from.

My dragonmarks are the way I expect to stay alive both soloing and in groups. Dishing out the damage like I plan to I expect is going to gen a LOT of aggro. When I played my first game, there were always enemies charging me, and I was just a little 8 strength rouge with a little sneak attack damage. That is the same reasoning I was using to add the sublte caster enhancements. If there are ways around the aggro and being swarmed, I would love to spend those points in general mageishness, like bettering my charms/sleeps/holds.

If Augment Summining blows, then that is the obvious place to swap out a feat for a spell focus. What else would you cut? I'm guessing you will suggest a dragonmark, but then I will need a tactic to sub in for keeping myself alive. Sneaking around did not seem to work as well as I expected it would in my first game.

[ArcaneMelee]

Spending 3 feats to get a lesser form of self-healing doesn't seem like fun to me. If you go PM, you'll want to be in form 24X7 anyway, but you won't have the advantage of the higher int from Drow/Human/Helf.

[unbongwah]

A Dragonmarked halfling wizard is a flavor build, IMHO; you're spending an awful lot of feats & APs to add some healing capability. This made more sense before Pale Master came out if you wanted a fleshie (F2P) wizard who could self-heal; but as a PM, your self-heals come from undead form + Death Aura. You can still do it if you want and it's probably OK for a leveling build, but you may be disappointed in it by the time you get to level 20.

Second, the must-have feats for any wizard build I put together are: Toughness; Insightful Reflexes; Maximize; Empower; Quicken; Heighten; Mental Toughness (pre-req for AM & wraith form so you need it for either PrE); and Spell Focus / GSF in your chosen spell mastery. That leaves you 2-4 feats to play with, depending on whether you're human and pure or MCed. On a halfling rogue / wiz, that would leave two feats free for the DMs.

[MelvinTheMediocre]

your self-heals come from undead form + Death Aura

That is what I had not figured out. I will have to take another look at that.

[Kinerd]

-Both wizard PrEs are so powerful that you're almost obliged to take one.
-After the first ranks in crit chance and multiplier, you get a very poor return on investment. Really every element is useful, so hyper-specializing in one is usually not a good choice.
-In addition to CC, you are reducing your instant-kill ability by focusing on direct damage and ignoring DC. Instant kill and CC are incredibly powerful.

Two tricks from experience:
As you note, archmage SLAs are very expensive, frequently costing you more than you would get. There are two exceptions: SLA Web (Conjuration) and to a lesser extent SLA Hypnotism (Enchant). SLA Web is enormously, unbelievably worth it, especially on a build with lower than usual Spell Penetration like yours. Hypnotism applies a -3 Will save debuff even if the targets save against the primary effect, making it a quick and cheap prep for a tougher group of monsters.

Doing by far the most damage doesn't necessarily mean things will hit you:
-The easiest and most reliable way to avoid that is to have your targets CCed.
-Second, you can time your damage: if your attack does 75% of the monster's HP, don't be the first to hit it. Wait for the melees to establish aggro and do 25% damage, then finish it off.
-Finally, you have two ways to damage monsters without them being able to damage you: persistent damage and range. You even have two versions of the first: DoTs you cast on a single target like Eladar's Electric Surge, and persistent AoE effects like Wall of Fire. One caveat: don't be that person that gets aggro and kites things all over the place. Yes you're still doing damage and will eventually kill whatever it is without taking (much) damage yourself, but it's faster and less annoying for the whole group to be doing damage.

[DarkForte]

FACT: Being in undead form makes you immune to healing. It doesn't affect you. Clerics won't accidentally kill you with mass heals.

[MelvinTheMediocre]

Hmmm. Lots to think about. I'm starting to agree that just the Dragon Marks should be enough to keep me alive with out all of the APs put into extra uses. Play will determine that. If I take out those APs and the subtle casting APs, I can work in Archmage with greater spell focus. My first instinct is to go with enchantment for the holds and charms, but there may be a better school. It looks like you basically loose 25 spell points and spend 6 APs to get a +2 DC in one school. Do most people find that is worth it?

The Pale Master just doesn't appeal to me. You can't get a form until around level 16, it costs 100 spell points for 3 minutes, and many of the benefits require touch attacks. I do like the summons, but overall it just doesn't fit my style.

So anyways, does this look like an improvement?

Halfling, Rogue at level 1 and level 7ish, wiz every other level.
Level 1 (AP: 0/4)
Level 2 (AP: 4/8) Frost Manipulation I, Flame Manipulation I, Improved Concentration I, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Level 3 (AP: 10/12) Glacial Spellcasting I, Combustive Spellcasting I, Wizard Improved Maximizing I, Wizard Intelligence I
Level 4 (AP: 14/16) Deadly Ice I, Deadly Flame I, Frost Manipulation II, Flame Manipulation II
Level 5 (AP: 15/20) Improved Concentration II
Level 6 (AP: 21/24) Glacial Spellcasting II, Combustive Spellcasting II, Frost Manipulation III, Flame Manipulation III, Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Level 7 (AP: 21/28)
Level 8 (AP: 31/32) Deadly Ice II, Deadly Flame II, Wizard Improved Maximizing II, Wizard Intelligence II
Level 9 (AP: 36/36) Wizard Archmage I, Archmage Spell Mastery I: Enchantment
Level 10 (AP: 40/40) Frost Manipulation IV, Flame Manipulation IV, Glacial Spellcasting III, Combustive Spellcasting III
Level 11 (AP: 42/44) Deadly Ice III, Deadly Flame III
Level 12 (AP: 47/48) Wizard Energy of the Scholar III, Frost Manipulation V, Flame Manipulation V
Level 13 (AP: 47/52)
Level 14 (AP: 53/56) Wizard Improved Maximizing III,
Level 15 (AP: 60/60) Wizard Intelligence III, Glacial Spellcasting IV
Level 16 (AP: 64/64) Combustive Spellcasting IV, Frost Manipulation VI, Flame Manipulation VI, Deadly Ice IV
Level 17 (AP: 65/68) Deadly Flame IV
Level 18 (AP: 72/72) Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV, Frost Manipulation VII, Flame Manipulation VII, Glacial Spellcasting V
Level 19 (AP: 76/76) Combustive Spellcasting V, Deadly Ice V, Deadly Flame V, Archmage Spell Mastery II: Enchantment
Level 20 (AP: 80/80) Glacial Spellcasting VI, Combustive Spellcasting VI, Deadly Ice VI, Deadly Flame VI

Feats
1 Least Dragon Mark
2 Maximize Spell Spell
3 Mental Toughness
6 Lesser Dragon Mark
6 Insightful Evasion
9 Spell Focus Enchantment
12 Greater Dragon Mark
12 Spell Penetration
15 Greater Spell Penetration
17 Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
18 Heighten Spell

[DarkForte]

Most of the stuff you said of pale masters is off-track. You can get into form with good self-healing (lesser death aura just doesn't cut it) as soon as level 7, when you get Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst for contingencies. Going into form is basically permanent, the only thing that kicks you out of it is dying. No one bothers with the touch attack, but the other benefits from the forms basically outclass any dragonmarked healing, and save you the feats you'd spend on dragonmarks:

Zombie:
100% fort at level 7 (this is HUGE, actually);
+2 con;
DR 5/Slashing (also very cool at lower levels if you don't have an invulnerability robe);
Free touch-range nuke for a small amount of HP, which you regen with Death Aura anyways.

Wraith:
Also 100% fort at no cost;
25% incorporeality is basically a perma-blur that stacks in a way with blur.
+20 boost to move silently helps your sneaking skills, since you also are a rogue;
Free single-target ranged nuke.

Lich:
You guessed it, 100% fort at no cost;
+2 int makes all your spell DCs higher by 1;
+4 con means 40 more HP;
+1 to necromancy DCs is basically what archmage gets, but with less AP investment;
Life shield procs enhance your survivability;
Free area-of-effect ranged nuke;

[MelvinTheMediocre]

In zombie form, does the 20% slower attacks affect casting?

[DarkForte]

Not at all.

[Infant]

For self-Healing: either PM or AM with UMD (you have Rogue levels anyway).

Drop Dragonmarks, get spell Focus and Spenn Penetration Feats for CC, imho.

EDIT: I meant Empower spell, you have Spell Pen already.

[DarkForte]

To elaborate on what Infant stated: Even without the dragonmarks, 2 levels of rogue gives you UMD as a class skill, allowing you to have 23 ranks on it. With some gear investment, you can get to the 39 UMD needed to use heal scrolls with no-failure, allowing you to heal yourself quite reliably. So, even if you decide pale master is not for you, the dragonmarks are at best superfluous, since you can use CSW wands at lower levels and Heal scrolls at higher levels to the same effect.

[Kinerd]

It looks like you basically loose 25 spell points and spend 6 APs to get a +2 DC in one school. Do most people find that is worth it?

Even if that was all archmage did, it would be absolutely, unquestionably worth it. There is also something weird going on with your SP/AP math:
AM1: +100, 4 AP
SM1: -50, 1 AP
AM2: +75, 1 AP
AM3: +75, 1 AP
AM4: +75, 1 AP
SM2: -75, 1 AP
Net: +325 -125 = +200
Total AP: 9

Now, enchant is a very serviceable school; the standard choices for primary school are enchant and necro. I can't recommend secondary mastery in Conjuration strongly enough, because I never memorized Power Word: Build Advice. You will never regret spending the feat on Spell Focus Conjuration, the 3 AP, and the 125 SP for SLA Web.

[MelvinTheMediocre]

There is also something weird going on with your SP/AP math

I just took it far enough to get the first benefit. Currently I'm such a low level I don't know enough about how the game plays to be seriously planning my level 20 character. I just need to know enough of where I am going to not get totally off track on my feats. Everyone here has been super helpful, so thanks much!