Wizard AM/PM Balance - Please Fix It

[Qaliya]

To summarize: there is no balance between AMs and PMs for wizards.

Since I'm a masochist, I decided to play what I thought would be cool, rather than what "everyone else is doing". And now I know why I never see any other wizards out there playing anything but pale masters: PMs are ridiculously strong; AMs are not, and furthermore, have to contend with seriously messed up spells.

I have the full line of evocation SLAs, along with two conjuration SLAs. Web works great, but the two top level evocation spells are a mess.

Getting cyclonic blast cost me an ungodly number of feats, enhancements and spell points. Way more than a PM pays for anything!

And for it I get a spell that doesn't hit moving targets, that destroys friendly firewalls, that doesn't hit through globes of invulnerability even though it's a fifth level spell, and randomly does 1/10 to 1/4 of the damage it's supposed to for no reason.

Fire shield is also messed up. It doesn't do the amount of damage it's supposed to, and duration doesn't scale beyond level 15. Enhancements and most metas don't affect it. Why? And it wasn't very useful to begin with.

The archmage inherent SLAs cannot have metas put on them so they are quickly becoming useless -- everything evades them.

Web works well but nothing beyond it in the conjuration line is even worth considering.

When there are two prestige classes and 95% of people use one of them, that's a good sign the other needs work. I want to try to stick with AM but it's increasingly looking like a respec is in my future.

At the very least, please fix our messed up spells!!

[mute_mayhem]

I wasn't aware that you need to take all the SLA's to be an archmage...

My WF archmage has comparable DC's to a PM (43 necro) and a lot more spell points, oh and 3 spell point 41 DC webs...I fail to see how the balance is skewed towards PM.

[Urjak]

Playing a conjuration archmage ... works quite well most of the time ... being able to spamn 44 dc webs for 3 sp while having suboptimal gear is a nice perk ... but I agree archmages could need a small buff

My suggestion: Make the yugo pots apply only a -25% fort reduction instead of 50% ... then it would be save to use them in any situation (considering you play a wf, non-wf archmages are simply not worth of consideration anyhow; like pale master can all of the time now) ... and maybe give archmages a +1 dc to the 2 schools the archmage is focused on at the 5th tier ... else dc wise there is not much gain from archmage and seriously, its hard to play this game only using one spellschool exclusively

[Kmnh]

Archmages are a LOT more powerful than PMs. Evocation is a bad line, but enchantment, necromancy and conjuration are all seriously powerful.

Sure, building an archmage right requires more planning, more creative spell use and more gear, but I figure that is a good thing.

[Qaliya]

I wasn't aware that you need to take all the SLA's to be an archmage...

Obviously you don't. But my complaint is about those SLAs, which are a big part of the prestige class and most of which currently are not worth what they cost.

If most of the small number of people who go AM aren't taking the SLAs, that's really a big part of the point. Most of the PRE is ignored, only tiny portions are used in special cases.

I like being an evoker. I just want my spells to WAI.

[Selchin]

Obviously you don't. But my complaint is about those SLAs, which are a big part of the prestige class and most of which currently are not worth what they cost.

If most of the small number of people who go AM aren't taking the SLAs, that's really a big part of the point. Most of the PRE is ignored, only tiny portions are used in special cases.

I like being an evoker. I just want my spells to WAI.

Just to be fair, most of the PM enhancements (various skeleton summons) are just as useless and also get ignored.

[somenewnoob]

Which of the SLA's in each school are worth taking? Also is arcane bolt/blast worth it?

I've got a lowbie wf wiz/rogue and was planning on making him an evocation/enchantment AM.

[Eladiun]

Since I'm a masochist, I decided to play what I thought would be cool, rather than what "everyone else is doing". And now I know why I never see any other wizards out there playing anything but pale masters: PMs are ridiculously strong; AMs are not, and furthermore, have to contend with seriously messed up spells.

I find this to be completely false. My Con/Nec Archmage does just fine.

[Qaliya]

Just to be fair, most of the PM enhancements (various skeleton summons) are just as useless and also get ignored.

But the core ones are extremely powerful.

My cheapened Cyclonic Blast is at the same level as Shroud of the Lich. Is there really any comparison? And I'm pretty sure the Shroud has fewer requirements.

I find this to be completely false. My Con/Nec Archmage does just fine.

Are you using any actual SLAs, which are the core of the PRE, or just taking it for a couple of +DCs and spell points?

It's the SLAs I am mostly complaining about here. Other than web and hypnotize, who actually uses them? And they are the bulk of the prestige class.

The fact that 95% of wizards use necromancy to kill things because so little else is effective is also a big beef.

[Eladiun]

Which of the SLA's in each school are worth taking? Also is arcane bolt/blast worth it?

I've got a lowbie wf wiz/rogue and was planning on making him an evocation/enchantment AM.

Conjuration - 3pt Webs are the best CC end game
Enchantment - 1pt Hypno is a -5 Debuff for all your Mass Holds

[quiescent]

I'd like to see more PrEs given to classes with only one before screwing around with one that already exists. After that, finish the exiting PrEs. You might not think AM is a viable choice, but at least it's a choice. Tell that to the clerics and FvS out there. Or to the bards with only 2 levels of PrE.

[danotmano1998]

IMO, the SLA's on the sorcerer is where it's at.

Im building an Archmage myself and doing just fine without taking a single SLA.
So, in a way, I guess that reinforces your point.

[Qaliya]

I'd like to see more PrEs given to classes with only one before screwing around with one that already exists.

So would I. But that takes a significant amount of developer resources.

This would not. Fixing these issues would not delay the release of any other prestige classes in any meaningful way.

It isn't too much to ask for the so-called "pinnacle" spell of a prestige class to actually work properly.

[quiescent]

So would I. But that takes a significant amount of developer resources.

This would not. Fixing these issues would not delay the release of any other prestige classes in any meaningful way.

It isn't too much to ask for the so-called "pinnacle" spell of a prestige class to actually work properly.

How do you know that? You can't be sure unless you're one of the developers. You can't be blind to the fact that the age of this game's code makes changing one thing a tremendous **** shoot in terms of what else it might mess up.

It's easy for you or me or anyone to say "Just change X and everything will be fixed!" when in reality, changing X could have unintended consequences for G, J, L, R, Y and Z.

Quick example: what exactly did they change to make all the armor lose their colors? Were they mucking about in the armor code, or was it something totally unrelated? It's never as simple as "Fix this!"

[teh_meh]

Devs have enough legitimate stuff to fix without being distracted by poorly informed "please fix this" threads.

If you want to specialize in evocation casting, TR into a sorc. You'll be much happier with your SP pool and elemental punch.

WF AM with necro/ench is king in epics and in terms of survivability.

[Mrmorphling]

Enchantment - 1pt Hypno is a -5 Debuff for all your Mass Holds

Make it -3 for 6secs and a non heightened non quickened hypno just costs 10.

I do agree with OP that, atm, PM are slightly more powerfull all around than AM but not daunting so (basically same DC in necro and ench and more HP, more 'passive DR' and free yugo pot usage vs super cheap webs and slightly more mana)

[Nines9]

I've heard/seen the same thing you have. My wiz was a am necro/conj, same necro dc as a comparable pm, super cheap high dc webs are awesome, and reconstruct > neg energy burst. Trying out pm now, the only real advantages I see are constant healing, being able to drink yugo pots without having to worry about fort, the hp dmg sla's, having scary ghost faces come out of my shoulders, and being immune to being danced.

I like pm, I like am, don't really see either as overpowered, and when they bring back blanket epic death block to mobs in an update or two, you'll see a lot of those pm move to am or tr to sorc, so your problem will be solved.

[Vazok1]

Archmages are a LOT more powerful than PMs. Evocation is a bad line, but enchantment, necromancy and conjuration are all seriously powerful.

Sure, building an archmage right requires more planning, more creative spell use and more gear, but I figure that is a good thing.

I agree with km here. Archmages require more gear and player experience but in the end they are a lot more powerful.

[Qaliya]

How do you know that?

Over thirty years of programming experience.

You can't be blind to the fact that the age of this game's code makes changing one thing a tremendous **** shoot in terms of what else it might mess up.

It's ALREADY messed up.

Fixing Cyclonic Blast so it actually works properly is the minimum I am requesting, and it is an entirely reasonable request.

Devs have enough legitimate stuff to fix without being distracted by poorly informed "please fix this" threads.

Have you tried actually using the evocation SLAs or spells like Cyclonic Blast? Do it and then come back here and we'll decide who is "poorly informed".

10% of the AM PRE having an application doesn't change the fact that 90% of it is busted. For the zillionth time, when the ability you get at the fifth level of a PRE is busted, it's not too much to ask it to be fixed.

Nearly all of the contrary -- and in your case, obnoxious -- replies, boil down to "well that option sucks so don't use it, use an option that doesn't suck". Wow, so helpful.

Is there even one SLA above second or third level that AMs actually use?

[Doxmaster]

I just want them to look into a few thigns have have poor cost effectivity.