CC bard question

[Arcanejill]

Never built a bard before so I've been looking through a lot of build/advice threads. I'd like to make a CC Spellsinger (pure) bard. My main question is whether a bard can achieve a decent Enchantment DC without a year of grinding equipment to make it worth it.

10 base DC
Assuming 40 Charisma (18 base/6 item/2 exceptional/5 level ups/3 Bard/1 Human/2 ship buff/3 tome) = 15 DC
Heightened spell = 6 DC
SF/GSF = 2 DC
Capstone = 2 DC
Greater Ench Focus = 2 DC

= 37 DC... I know on my wizard my sphere didn't work all that well endgame at 37 DC before I got the gear to bump it up.

So am I missing something? Or is it just not really worth it to focus on Enchantment DC and rely mainly on Fascinate?

[TheDearLeader]

You forgot +2 Charisma for the Capstone, at least.
Yugo Charisma Pot +2 (15 Minutes is long enough for me to count as a buff)

Your own Spellsong Trance is +1 to that Spell DC.

Looks like we've already got you up to DC 40, yeah?

[Xoltaz]

and most important - if your DC's aren't high enough, don't forget the debuffs (like mindfog + dball, hypnotism, crushing etc)

[Tuney]

Well I'd think the Yugo one might be a little harder for some players but it isn't like grinding for gear. Just getting an 'elite amarth group' to pop it out.

I'd think getting an epic Elyd edge and a ToD 'bard ring' isn't too hard. That would give you another CHA bracket increase +7 with +1 expectional CHA.

Main thing a bard has to do to really shine as a primary CC is 'prep-work.' ... that and a group that doesn't act all foolish thinking you have long lasting QUICK mass croud controls. If you are in a shrine rich area , you can prep using fasinate and work 1 by 1 with very little worry. Less shrines means Mind fog + disco ball and just hold as they come. But I'd say the major disadvantage a bard has is they are enchantment specced which means you can't do squat vs vermin and undead and super high SR but still fasinate covers the super high SR slightly.

But a proper bard build with gear , skill and non foolish group can easily cover as a CC job.

[Gorbadoc]

Well I'd think the Yugo one might be a little harder for some players but it isn't like grinding for gear. Just getting an 'elite amarth group' to pop it out.

I'd think getting an epic Elyd edge and a ToD 'bard ring' isn't too hard. That would give you another CHA bracket increase +7 with +1 expectional CHA.

Main thing a bard has to do to really shine as a primary CC is 'prep-work.' ... that and a group that doesn't act all foolish thinking you have long lasting QUICK mass croud controls. If you are in a shrine rich area , you can prep using fasinate and work 1 by 1 with very little worry. Less shrines means Mind fog + disco ball and just hold as they come. But I'd say the major disadvantage a bard has is they are enchantment specced which means you can't do squat vs vermin and undead and super high SR but still fasinate covers the super high SR slightly.

But a proper bard build with gear , skill and non foolish group can easily cover as a CC job.

The tragedy of the enchanter bard is that a melee-specced bard covers most of that CC functionality with songs alone.

Incidentally, Music of the Dead and Music of Makers are well-worth 14 AP. They greatly increase the number of fights in the game you can shut down. Again, tragically, that's more than can be said for CC spells-- fork out all those build points and feats, and how many monsters can you now CC that you couldn't CC before? Disco ball stops monsters in a different way, but few monsters come to mind that are affected by Disco Ball but not Fascinate.

[Arcanejill]

The tragedy of the enchanter bard is that a melee-specced bard covers most of that CC functionality with songs alone.

Incidentally, Music of the Dead and Music of Makers are well-worth 14 AP. They greatly increase the number of fights in the game you can shut down. Again, tragically, that's more than can be said for CC spells-- fork out all those build points and feats, and how many monsters can you now CC that you couldn't CC before? Disco ball stops monsters in a different way, but few monsters come to mind that are affected by Disco Ball but not Fascinate.

This is the question I'm asking myself as I play with the build. I've looked through a lot of different spellsinger builds and the following suggestions/arguments. I know full well that a lot depends on play style and what you want from the build (my cleric build certainly differs from the "standard" but I like her the way I built her, this life anyway).

Thank you all for your responses. Now I have to decide if I want to focus on CC or use the feats elsewhere.

[TheDearLeader]

The tragedy of the enchanter bard is that a melee-specced bard covers most of that CC functionality with songs alone.

Incidentally, Music of the Dead and Music of Makers are well-worth 14 AP. They greatly increase the number of fights in the game you can shut down. Again, tragically, that's more than can be said for CC spells-- fork out all those build points and feats, and how many monsters can you now CC that you couldn't CC before? Disco ball stops monsters in a different way, but few monsters come to mind that are affected by Disco Ball but not Fascinate.

This is the question I'm asking myself as I play with the build. I've looked through a lot of different spellsinger builds and the following suggestions/arguments. I know full well that a lot depends on play style and what you want from the build (my cleric build certainly differs from the "standard" but I like her the way I built her, this life anyway).

Thank you all for your responses. Now I have to decide if I want to focus on CC or use the feats elsewhere.

I'm going to address both of these at once, as it seems to strike to the core/question the viability thereof in regards to the "CC Spellsinger".

I have two pure level 20 Bards - Hobadash, the CC Spellsinger, and Festivius, the Halfling Warchanter "Max Buff" package. I feel I can speak from both sides of the pond here.

I like both toons. Both, I can go do Weapon Shipment Elite with, solo, and invite five people in at the end to come loot. But, I do notice some differences.

Hobadash, I've been the only blue bar in Epics before. I literally played the Healer, Buffer, and CC caster role all three at the same time. Of course, I've been lucky in my time to get good parties every now and then, sure, but the point is it feels like something I can do. I have a 41 DC on my Enchantment Spells (two more Charisma than OP), and I've found that is fine for most if not all content. Epic Devil Assault? I can do the Dancing Balls/Mind Fog/Crushing Despair, and leave the Nuking/Instakilling to the Wizard/Sorc. I've done ToDs on Hard where healers had more than 75% of their SP remaining, and the same applies for many of the Raids/quests out there.

Festivius is fun because he's got both Demonic Shield and Concordant Opp, combined with DR 5/- from his Ironskin Chant - he ends up being pretty good at regenerating SP for a toon that doesn't have a Torc/Bauble. He's got a little more HP than Hoba, but less SP, and no Quicken, and a Concentration Score lower than I'd like. Still, he ends up being a lot of fun to Solo things with, provided I have ship buffed-resists, and Death Ward from some means.

My experience, though is that in Party-Based play, Festivius tends to be more like a Paladin with buffs - DPS and HP, a blue bar for buffing, but really minor in the way of SP heals. And, of course, with low Concentration, he can get interrupted easily.

Hobadash, on the other hand, can do multiple roles at once, and can take over Healing in EDQ2 if the healers are knocked down, can Dance mobs while Melee swing away at them, and overall just seems "better" for the party than Festivius.

Both do more than fine at soloing, especially with resists/Death Ward. Really, both do more than fine in a party - but I've felt Spellsinger has given me more variety in the roles that I could play, and what I could bring to the table.

[Alleyna]

Never built a bard before so I've been looking through a lot of build/advice threads. I'd like to make a CC Spellsinger (pure) bard. My main question is whether a bard can achieve a decent Enchantment DC without a year of grinding equipment to make it worth it.

Short answer: YES, a first life bard with minimal grinding can get a good enchant DC.

Charisma: 18 base + 5 lvl + 1 human + 5 bard + 2 tome + 3 exceptional + 7 item + 1 litany = 42 charisma unbuffed
Out of that list, +2 tome is not hard to get (can get with 1750 favor), +3 exceptional from single shard greensteel or TOD ring (cleric rings can be easily obtained, bard rings funny enough do not give exc cha 1). In fact, the hardest item in that list to get is litany of the dead. The item I would recommend above all else to get is the epic Elyd Edge. epic The Tide Turns and epic Bargain of Blood are often pugged and most people will pass the seal and the shard to the bard who desperately wants it So even a 40 charisma is very easy to get.

Enchant DC: 10 base + 15 charisma + 2 capstone + 2 feats + 2 item (dreamspitter, eardweller, etc etc) + 6 spell (heighten) = 37 minimum unbuffed
Add in +1 (spellsinger song) and +1 (+2 CHA ship shrine), you can get a 39 DC with hardly any effort. Getting higher charisma, yugo pots, etc.. are just gravy. My bard with a 39 DC on her first life had no problems CCing in eDA. Sure, you'll get some mobs saving, but once you throw debuffs into the mix - crushing despair, mind fog - you won't have any problems at all.

And, if you build your CC bard right, your bard can do several things.

CC - dance ball, OID, songs (I went virt, so I have enthrall + capering song; also Music of the Dead is highly recommended! I took both Music of the Dead and Music of the Makers and use them frequently. They work in epics wonderfuly, such as epic Wiz King), single target hold monster

Buffs - self-explanatory. Max out attack and damage enhancements for inspire courage.

Heals - spell singers are predispositioned towards CC/heals with their slightly higher spell pool and the nature of the pre (required enhancements). Pick up heal boosting enhancements if you have room. Get as much W&SM as possible - you'll find yourself healing tanks or other key members during high end raids/quests. Take at minimum both mass cure spells and at least one single target cure spell recommended. epic Elyd Edge comes with superior devotion VI. Maximize spell is highly recommended, empower heal is nice to have if you can fit it in.

DPS - yes, even a max Charisma CC-specc'd bard can DPS! My weapon of choice is epic Elyd Edge (has cacophany now for DPS boost and uses charisma for to-hit and damage). I pair it with a tier 3 epic Swashbuckler (slotted with arcane spell failure crystal) for double strike 6%. With bard songs and buffs, you can actually do a fair amount of damage considering you're not building for DPS. Use hold monster and even greater shout (although greater shout will have a lower DC since it is evocation and not enchant) for extra damage due to helpless state.

In short, YES, a first life, minimal gear grinding bard is VERY useful and VERY effective.

The tragedy of the enchanter bard is that a melee-specced bard covers most of that CC functionality with songs alone.

Incidentally, Music of the Dead and Music of Makers are well-worth 14 AP. They greatly increase the number of fights in the game you can shut down. Again, tragically, that's more than can be said for CC spells-- fork out all those build points and feats, and how many monsters can you now CC that you couldn't CC before? Disco ball stops monsters in a different way, but few monsters come to mind that are affected by Disco Ball but not Fascinate.

Not a single orange-named mob are affected by songs. Most of them can be CC'd through spells.

[Aashrym]

Not a single orange-named mob are affected by songs. Most of them can be CC'd through spells.

Otto's IR doesn't require CHA for DC's.

[Alleyna]

Otto's IR doesn't require CHA for DC's.

True, but it is very short duration now and still requires a spell penetration check. But it still works on most mobs. I personally prefer holding orange-names if at all possible

[Aurora1979]

True, but it is very short duration now and still requires a spell penetration check. But it still works on most mobs. I personally prefer holding orange-names if at all possible

Ive had quite a few bards.

I prefer playing warchanters. OI dance lasts plenty long enough, I use it all the time in epics. I have no spell pen boosts and it lands fine and lasts long enough to control the mobs till we get round to killing them.

with a fascinate of 60+ on my 16/2/2 split, that still works fine too if needed.

[Alleyna]

Ive had quite a few bards.

I prefer playing warchanters. OI dance lasts plenty long enough, I use it all the time in epics. I have no spell pen boosts and it lands fine and lasts long enough to control the mobs till we get round to killing them.

with a fascinate of 60+ on my 16/2/2 split, that still works fine too if needed.

You are right, all a matter of personal preference . That's the wonderful thing about bards, there are so many different viable builds! You like your warchanter, I love my CC-spec'd virtuoso

[Aashrym]

True, but it is very short duration now and still requires a spell penetration check. But it still works on most mobs. I personally prefer holding orange-names if at all possible

With the changes that have been happening after each update I think bards have been steadily losing ground compared to other casters for some time now. I thought the trade offs were more worth it when they were a bit behind instead of a lot behind (I generally think building for epics when I say that, for clarification).

Holding in epics lasts shorter times with the save changes. The extra debuff to the spell effects are short duration. Stun effect from sonic spells on bards when out the door to even land let alone the normally short duration. I can just OID single target and not lose time and SP to a prep spell and fascinate groups for duration / mass effect.

That does not mean a person cannot have fun or that it's not possible to hit the necessary DC's on a caster bard. In fact, it became a bit easier pre-capstone with the debuffs added. What I don't like about that is the extra SP and time investment to get a short debuff for when that debuff is needed.

What I miss on my caster based spellsinger would be the disco ball and mass charming. Mass charming is restricted in a lot of content just because development doesn't want it to work with changes to effectiveness of charms or simply applying immunities.

Disco ball is a good spell and bards can get to a decent enough DC on it. The AP requirements on getting a high DC and full IC and healing are prohibitively expensive in some cases when a person can just go with IC, PrE req's, and some healing. That is a particularly tough one for spellsingers to catch and they often give up MotM/MotD (ie giving up CC they don't have spells to cover in order to get better CC on the spells with a limited selection). Some give up IC enhancements. That spreads them thinner for a benefit for few spells.

Like I said earlier, I miss mass charming and disco ball. A bard can be built for spell CC and can be fun and can make the DC's. It's the cost for it that becomes more and more insane as those bards become less and less effective compared to full casters with each update.

Hopefully that helps the OP in the decision making process. I've also made a lot of bards over the years and have definitely felt the impact of change.