Strategy or Exploit?

[Qaliya]

So I'm still masochistically trying out these new challenges. And someone I was with made a suggestion which I tried, and it seems to make all of the kobold island quests into pretty much a joke.

I'm not going to say what it is. I'm just curious how and where and when Turbine draws the line between what is an exploit and what is just smart strategy.

If a dev wants to send me a PM I can be more specific.

[Arnhelm]

If you think it's a bug, report it. You might make game-play better for everyone.

[In_Like_Flynn]

If you have to ask, it's probably an exploit.

[gloopygloop]

If you have to ask, it's probably an exploit.

There's also a lot of things that people think are exploits that actually aren't.

Things like
Standing where a melee-only enemy can't reach you while you plink it to death from range
Leap of Faith/Abundant Step/Rocket Boots to get to the second book in Sleeping Dust before getting to the first book
Leap of Faith/Abundant Step to get purple coins during the Risian games
Instance switching in Mabar to find undead to slaughter instead of just waiting for them to spawn
Running past enemies while invisible instead of fighting them
Casting invisibility on friendly targets (like kobolds, Coyle, harvesters, altars, etc) to get enemies to ignore them and fight you instead
Kiting enemies instead of tanking them
and many, many more.

If people think that all of those are exploits (and they certainly aren't), then maybe asking if something is an exploit might not be such a good indicator that something probably is an exploit.

[voodoogroves]

Compare and contrast....

1 turning in dubloons for stuf to sell and make plat
2 something that acts odd because of an error condition and generates plat

I firmly believe the second is and exploit. The first is more very efficient use of in game real (heh) mechanics.

If it makes you feel better I solod those BEFORE I heard about the trick I tink you're talking about ... haven't tried that way yet, but it is doable without for sure.

[waterboytkd]

Compare and contrast....

1 turning in dubloons for stuf to sell and make plat
2 something that acts odd because of an error condition and generates plat

I firmly believe the second is and exploit. The first is more very efficient use of in game real (heh) mechanics.

This. The first started a fiery debate on these forums as to whether or not it was actually an exploit. The second (recent events), no one has tried to argue it wasn't an exploit. It so very obviously was.

When you have to ask if it's an exploit, sometimes, you really do have to ask.

That said, it would be super if the OP could find out for sure if it's an exploit or not. If it isn't, I would love to hear details, as only a minority of my guild is actually interested in challenges, so being able to solo or short-man them would sweet.

[Rumbaar]

My Archon can target and hit enemies through a wall or from behind a pillar. Is that bad game design or an exploit? My Blade Barrier can hit targets through a barrier or door, is that bad game design or an exploit?

If I am able to get poorly designed AI or game mechanics to make things easier, why is that an exploit?

[vyvy3369]

This is the best list you're likely to find. Or check my signature for a good summary from a dev.

[jingseng]

So I'm still masochistically trying out these new challenges. And someone I was with made a suggestion which I tried, and it seems to make all of the kobold island quests into pretty much a joke.

I'm not going to say what it is. I'm just curious how and where and when Turbine draws the line between what is an exploit and what is just smart strategy.

If a dev wants to send me a PM I can be more specific.

If you have to ask about something in a non specific manner that hides whatever it is you are asking about, it is an exploit.

[waterboytkd]

If you have to ask about something in a non specific manner that hides whatever it is you are asking about, it is an exploit.

I just found out about it not too long ago (I think). Honestly, it doesn't seem like an exploit. You're certainly not taking advantage of any kind of behavior breaking bug, which is the closest no-no it would fit into. But it may not have been intended, either. Does not intended automatically mean exploit? From what I understand, there's a number of things in this game the devs didn't intend that work to the players' benefit, but aren't considered exploits. So...I would really love a Dev comment.

[EatSmart]

Well, what's being done is fully WAI within the parameters of the spell, and the paramaters of monster AI. On the other hand the tactic is a massive easy button. Certainly the players should be rewarded for bringing and using the spell, but there does need to be a tweak to the challenge. Some (not all) of the wandering monsters need to have the counter-buff, that's all.

[Qaliya]

I got a reply from someone at Turbine by PM and have responded. I'll reply here with what I find out.

I don't believe this is an exploit, but I wanted to check.

[voodoogroves]

And easy button or not, you don't need it to complete solo (though it may make higher returns easier)

[Palantyr]

I don't think casting invisibility qualifies as an exploit but I do expect to see it changed.

[butlerfamilywa]

*Cough*

Ok... Casting Invisibility on the Giant in Madstone Crater so as to prevent him from being attacked by monsters is not an exploit.

That being said..

Why would you not be able to invis the crystals?

Quote:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Invisibility_(Spell)
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision.

So, a level 20 Wizard, casting Invisbility as a level 9 spell could Invis a 900 lb object...

However, DDO does not allow Invisibility to be Heighten'd, so it could only be a level 2 spell, making you able to cast it on no more than a 200lb object, meaning the giant crystals, shouldn't be able to be invis'd if they weight more than 200 lbs...


**EDIT**

DDO is not PnP D&D.. therefore the descriptions of the spell are different.

Description:
Invisibility renders a creature Invisible for 1 minute per caster level. This spell simply considers the creature is hidden with a Hide score of 20, but it isn't a bonus to Hide. Attacking a target, or using an object (Door, lever, etc.) removes this condition. Casting buffing or healing spells (except as an attack upon undead) and playing bardic music does NOT remove your Invisibility.

The description for DDO does not mention casting the spell on objects in any way... WAI?

However, I still do not believe that this would be an exploit, and my reasoning is because in PNP D&D, it would be allowable... however the DM would most likely give the monsters the ability to see thru invisibility, which would be the easiest fix for the Dev's to do with these challenges.

And on a side note to any forum moderators out there. I currently do not have a computer capable of connecting to DDO. I also am not currently a VIP member (have been most of the life of DDO), or a Premium member. Therefor I am unable to log into the game to report this as a bug, so.. consider this my bug report. Thank you.

[DeafeningWhisper]

My guess is bug, U shouldn't be able to target them at all.

[DocBenway]

My guess is bug, U shouldn't be able to target them at all.

But being untargetable would also keep them from being targeted by attackers, no? I can't think of anything in game that you have to defend / mobs attack, that you can't target yourself. I may be mistaken.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

But being untargetable would also keep them from being targeted by attackers, no? I can't think of anything in game that you have to defend / mobs attack, that you can't target yourself. I may be mistaken.

The box in Baudry's harbor chain?

[DocBenway]

The box in Baudry's harbor chain?

Been so long I never even thought of that. You're right, but you don't have to activate the crate either.

[Zeruell]

My guess is bug, U shouldn't be able to target them at all.

Strongly disagree. Repair spells can be a great boon in these challenges if things go south, and they should absolutely be applicable to those crystals.