Want a build without THF

[Zachski]

Basically, I'm actually getting tired of THF bards. And perhaps melee period.

Everytime I enter the quest it's like "Master's Touch, Inspire Courage, Attack attack attack attack heal self attack attack attack attack"

I don't really feel like a bard. I feel like a fighter with a bard level.

So, actually, I would kinda like a build that takes into account things besides THF.

Some things to note are...

1. 32 point builds
2. All races but Drow
3. No tome dependency (+1 tomes are fine as long as the build takes into consideration that I'll be finding them, not buying them)
4. THF discouraged EDIT: Though if you can find some way to make it more interesting, then it can be a THF build
5. Not party dependent
6. Untwinked
7. Pure

So, anyone have any advice?

Any PrE works.

[Jiirix]

I rolled this CC speced spellsinger and it's quit fun to play. Very good UMD, some healing and CC. But I must warn you: In really hard quests/raids the DCs and healing is not high enough.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 1046 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             18                    29

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    22
Bluff                 4                     9
Concentration         7                    32
Diplomacy             4                     9
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                8                    32
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            4                     9
Jump                  5                    24
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform               8                    32
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                0                     0
Use Magic Device      8                    36

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I

[morticianjohn]

I've seen a few TWF bards but I just can't see that being much difference for you. It's the same concept masters touch your khopesh and go to town. I have a healer/cc specced bard but he's pretty underwhelming. They get locked into one school and can't melee very well so undead quests and other quests with enchantment immunity turn you into a piker. Though when I hear from sarisa and other bards on the forums I realize that maybe if I bothers to get my bard some levels and gear my opinion would change.

I know this doesn't help you out much but exactly what do you expect a bard to be?

[Zachski]

I know this doesn't help you out much but exactly what do you expect a bard to be?

A song-singing sword-fighting spell-slinging bad-ass.

I know, an unrealistic expectation considering how this game works.

-snip-

Awesome. I didn't know you could roll a spell-focused build without any spells taken.

Sorry, I had to make a little dig at you there. Can you please list the spells you take? :P

[Kadriel]

Check this

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=diva%27s+bard

This will give you some nice tips, and most imporant,will show you the problem with wanting all in one. Bards can meele, fight, heal and crowd control, but can't be good in all at once. If you want all, you probably will end up beeing subpar in everything.

THF is the easiest way to meele, since it only requires decent str to be somewhat effective. Going S&B is not a good choice since you would still need str and the shield will give more trouble than help. TWF works but you have to sacrifice a lot to get to it.

Only way to be more solo friendly is to be able to meele, since bards don't get very usefull damaging spells. So either you will have to focus on spells and songs and group, or go TWF and be less than great with spells, or keep using THF

[Zachski]

Well then, how about something to make THF combat more interesting?

[Jiirix]

This is an TWF Warchanter with full trap skills, OK HP and good evasion (Add +3 to the save from the dwarfen enhancement). You wouldn't be THF anymore and between buffing, songs and choping some trap action could get you distraction.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(1 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 495 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 17
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             10                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    12
Bluff                 0                     2
Concentration         2                    26
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device        6                    27
Haggle                3                     5
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  6                     8
Intimidate            0                     4
Jump                  7                    10
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         6                     8
Open Lock             6                    13
Perform               n/a                  24
Repair                2                     3
Search                6                    28
Spot                  3                    22
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                3                     5
Use Magic Device      4                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II

[Zachski]

EDIT: Removed a line X3

And heavily splashed when I asked for Pure (though you may have made your initial post before my correction edit, and not realized that I made a couple of corrections in the OP. In which case, that's fine.)

Honestly, if you can make THF more interesting somehow, something that would make an early level Bard feel less like a Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian and more like a Bard, that would work, too.

Here, let me add THAT to the OP.

[Jiirix]

Awesome. I didn't know you could roll a spell-focused build without any spells taken.

Sorry, I had to make a little dig at you there. Can you please list the spells you take? :P

Missed a checkbox, here they are:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 1046 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

Level 1 (Bard)
Spell (1): Master's Touch


Level 2 (Bard)
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat


Level 3 (Bard)
Spell (1): Hypnotism


Level 4 (Bard)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Rage


Level 5 (Bard)
Spell (1): Charm Person
Spell (2): Soundburst


Level 6 (Bard)


Level 7 (Bard)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (2): Suggestion


Level 8 (Bard)
Spell (3): Charm Monster


Level 9 (Bard)


Level 10 (Bard)
Spell (3): Crushing Despair
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing


Level 11 (Bard)
Spell (4): Dimension Door


Level 12 (Bard)


Level 13 (Bard)
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (5): Mind Fog


Level 14 (Bard)
Spell (5): Shadow Walk


Level 15 (Bard)


Level 16 (Bard)
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (6): Mass Charm Monster
Spell (1): Grease
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic


Level 17 (Bard)
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistible Dance
Spell (2): Hold Person


Level 18 (Bard)
Spell (3): Deep Slumber


Level 19 (Bard)
Spell (4): Hold Monster
Spell (6): Greater Shout


Level 20 (Bard)
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion

But I am still swaping spells now and then, the list isnt set in stone yet.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

I still have no idea what you mean by saying
"Make THF more interesting"

Interesting is just such a vague word...

ANYHOW

I'd think about playing a virtuoso bard...
Lots of songs, good solo ability, ect ect.

[Zachski]

I still have no idea what you mean by saying
"Make THF more interesting"

Interesting is just such a vague word...

ANYHOW

I'd think about playing a virtuoso bard...
Lots of songs, good solo ability, ect ect.

Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins all just hold the left mouse button while occasionally clicking something, at least pre-level 6. Fighters click haste boost, barbarians click Rage (and Damage Boost now) and Paladins click Smite Evil.

For Bards, I want to be a bit more active pre-level 6 (this is before Warchanter, Spellsinger, and Virtuoso that I'm having the most frustration with). A spell selection that's interesting. Doesn't necessarily need to be offensive, just... interesting :3

[Jiirix]

No spells taken - again.

Your favorite spellset for an THF warchanter, those don't change with TWF

Pure/Multiclass: If you want a melee bard with some diversity 2 levels of rogue add a lot, like evasion and trap skills. If you want to play a versatile pure bard I would go with spellsinger or virtuoso, the capstone adds more for these pres.

EDIT: To the no tomes thing: Made the builds for myself, the TWF would need a +1 dex tome at least, the rest should work without tomes.

EDIT2: To the interisting play before level 6 thing: If you have a high starting CHA (I would say 16+) you can have lots of fun with soundburst and charm. Stunn low fort mobs with soundbursts and make the low will mobs fight for you. No barb, fighter or paly can do that.

[Zachski]

Your favorite spellset for an THF warchanter, those don't change with TWF

Pure/Multiclass: If you want a melee bard with some diversity 2 levels of rogue add a lot, like evasion and trap skills. If you want to play a versatile pure bard I would go with spellsinger or virtuoso, the capstone adds more for these pres.

EDIT: To the no tomes thing: Made the builds for myself, the TWF would need a +1 dex tome at least, the rest should work without tomes.

EDIT2: To the interisting play before level 6 thing: If you have a high starting CHA (I would say 16+) you can have lots of fun with soundburst and charm. Stunn low fort mobs with soundbursts and make the low will mobs fight for you. No barb, fighter or paly can do that.

Hmm.

Well, I guess I'll figure something out, though I do like Cure Light Wounds so that's two spell slots automatically taken up.

Say, does Bard have to take Master's Touch? Can't I just, I dunno, use a quarterstaff until level 12?

[Jiirix]

Hmm.

Well, I guess I'll figure something out, though I do like Cure Light Wounds so that's two spell slots automatically taken up.

Say, does Bard have to take Master's Touch? Can't I just, I dunno, use a quarterstaff until level 12?

I am useing wands for the healing, therefore no spell slots. Perhaps you should look for some Arcane Archer Bard builds? I have seen some of them here in the forum and this is something completly different. Elf get longbows for free, so no masters touch needed.

[Zachski]

I am useing wands for the healing, therefore no spell slots. Perhaps you should look for some Arcane Archer Bard builds? I have seen some of them here in the forum and this is something completly different. Elf get longbows for free, so no masters touch needed.

Actually, I think... that would be a great idea, yeah.

Bardcher. Especially since ranged got buffed this update.

I don't want to be a Spellsinger AA, though. I'm going to go Virtuoso, then.

I'll go Helf, Ranger Dilly. That way, I get a pseudo Bow Strength and access to martial ranged weapons. First feat will be Point Blank Shot.

At level 3, my next feat will be Weapon Focus: Ranged

At level 6, I'll get Negotiator, and swap it out for Rapid Shot when I gain access to Bard Extra Song IV

At level 9, I'll get Manyshot. Unless the community feels that Manyshot isn't worth it on a 3/4 BAB character.

At level 12, I'll get Precise Shot.

At level 15, I'll get Improved Precise Shot.

At level 18, I'll get Maximize for my healing.

How's that?

[Aashrym]

Actually, I think... that would be a great idea, yeah.

Bardcher. Especially since ranged got buffed this update.

I don't want to be a Spellsinger AA, though. I'm going to go Virtuoso, then.

I'll go Helf, Ranger Dilly. That way, I get a pseudo Bow Strength and access to martial ranged weapons. First feat will be Point Blank Shot.

At level 3, my next feat will be Weapon Focus: Ranged

At level 6, I'll get Negotiator, and swap it out for Rapid Shot when I gain access to Bard Extra Song IV

At level 9, I'll get Manyshot. Unless the community feels that Manyshot isn't worth it on a 3/4 BAB character.

At level 12, I'll get Precise Shot.

At level 15, I'll get Improved Precise Shot.

At level 18, I'll get Maximize for my healing.

How's that?

You could go help rogue dilettante for sneak attack too. Need to be closer for the damage but it's more than you'll get out of the ranger dilettante bow strength.

The option to go repeater is there too if you replace weapon focus and manyshot with repeater and rapid reload (maybe change the order up). I'm not sure which you prefer but you strike me as a flavor first kind of person.

Moving away from the range idea and more towards spells I'm wondering if you were planning on buffing and relying on songs for CC, or if you were planning on a CHA build and casting still. The feats for range take quite a bit away from offensive casting and at lower levels sonic blast and sound burst are a lot of fun. Sonic blast is AoE now with nice range and a daze effect, something I would recommend to you for use at those lower levels if moving away from melee is something you want to do on your bard. It won't be very useful later on, but at low levels it's a pretty decent spell now.

[Tunst]

masters touch your khopesh and go to town.

just so you know, you cannot masters touch exotic weapons. :/

[yawumpus]

I'd say try a repeater build, but you would wind up lost with all the artificers.

Repeater builds are fun, but you would probably need to have a ton of crafting skill. After about level 10 or so you need the exact right weapon (holy of greater bane, but I've heard bleeding of standard bane is a popular crafting item) or you find yourself gimped. I think I've found a level 13 repeater bard pretty much stuck in the minotaur city while wielding a holy of greater monsterous humaniod bane, go figure. If I didn't assume from the question that you had a fi****l of bards I would still point out this is a fun way to get a bard that has a huge haggle and can wear a +15 haggle cove hat. Just don't be dead set on reaching 20.

It sounds like you don't want a melee bard at all. Probably a casting cleric or better yet a cc wizard.

[BoBoDaClown]

Two Bard Templates:

My current Bard:
Human 20 Spellsinger
Con: 18
Cha: 18 - level ups

Feats:
1) Spell Focus: Enchant
1) Extend
3) Spell Focus: Enchant
6) Maximise
9) Quicken
12) Spell Pen
15) Spell Pen
18) Heighten

With a bit of gear/work, you can CC where bard CC works (i.e. not undead etc), and main heal a lot of content.

Other Build, more of a does everything type of character:
Human spellsinger
Dex: 14-15 +2/+3 tome
Con: 15-16
Cha: 18+levels

Wield dual Epic Elyds.
1) Toughness
1) Extend
3) TWF
6) Maximise
9) ITWF
12) Improve Crit
15) GTWF
18) Heighten

This gives you 'everything', decent dps, healing, CC.

[Zachski]

You could go help rogue dilettante for sneak attack too. Need to be closer for the damage but it's more than you'll get out of the ranger dilettante bow strength.

So I assume a -5 to my attack rolls is worth sneak attack? :P

I think you forgot that Ranger Dilly grants proficiency with martial ranged weapons. I'm pretty sure Bard doesn't have longbow proficiency.