How would YOU fix/ change post U11 raids?

[Captain_Wizbang]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

[Crazyfruit]

More puzzles.

Cut monster health back by half or more, add 3 puzzles to each fight people have to be doing while it's going on.

Finishing some can temporarily buff the party, spawn monsters or weaken the enemy for a lil variety between raids. And maybe some pachinko. Everyone loves pachinko.

[Qzipoun]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks

[Thrudh]

I dislike the "everyone group up close together, and swing at the big raid boss who barely moves while everyone get mass cures" strategy.

I'd make raids harder not by giving that one boss more hp and fort, but by introducing more trash or lieutenant monsters...

Force us to split the party up... Make self-sufficiency as important as DPS. I think Part 2 of the Shroud beefed up would a be a great raid. Or make us split into 2 or 3 groups like some of the quests do, in order to pull levers at the same time...

Three groups of 4 players makes for a very different party make-up than one big group of 12 all standing still.

[WangChi]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

Change the Boss AI instead of the HP/fort. Have the big bad whatever (Harry/Suulo/CAD/etc) go after the healers and casters first, just like players do, but have them do it in a way that is just as predictable as the players. When you run eClaw, you whack the healing scorpions first if they are there, then work on the ambushers/guardian. *IF* the boss notices that the fighter whacking him in the ankles is being healed, he goes after the one that healed him, OR, if the boss notices that his support team (read: trash mobs) are dancing under disco balls instead of attacking the enemies, he goes after the ones casting disco balls.

THAT would require some serious tactics, not just "take improved sunder - problem solved". HP/Fort increase just means more work/pots/resources used by healers, not the real tactics used to beat the raids.

[Vint]

The biggest issue I have encountered is the lag. If you get rid of that and put out an instructional video at the start of the quest explaining how important it is to invest con on your toon, it should be easy.

[redoubt]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks

This.

[Angelus_dead]

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

There's a lot I'd change, but as to that specific thing where they raised boss Fortification on Elite:

• Remove increased Fortification from bosses on higher difficulty settings.
• Instead, the higher settings of those bosses can get a percentage absorption to damage, such as 10-20%, as if they were using Shield Mastery.
• Effects which have a Fortification debuff (like Improved Sunder, new Destruction, and Condemnation) also debuff that percentage absorption.

Boom, simple: The higher difficulty bosses are still harder to hurt and there is still an extra incentive to utilize certain debuffs, but the extra defense is applied equally to all melee classes, instead of unfairly singling out Rogues.

[maddmatt70]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks

No thanks. Alot of people left this game because the old raids were too easy. The new raids versions is not necessarily better, but at least they are less easy. I think some of the hp increases were totally warranted. I think upping the dragon some hps is actually a good idea, I just think the trash should have been made tougher and the dragon a little bit less increased hp for e.g. Seriously epic dq2 and epic dragon were snooze fests last mod and they are supposed to be well actually epic. Normal has not been changed too much so players can still do that difficult for Tower, Shroud, Reaver, Abbot, etc...

[redoubt]

No thanks. Alot of people left this game because the old raids were too easy. The new raids versions is not necessarily better, but at least they are less easy. I think some of the hp increases were totally warranted. I think upping the dragon some hps is actually a good idea, I just think the trash should have been made tougher and the dragon a little bit less increased hp for e.g. Seriously epic dq2 and epic dragon were snooze fests last mod and they are supposed to be well actually epic. Normal has not been changed too much so players can still do that difficult for Tower, Shroud, Reaver, Abbot, etc...

I agree with you often and find your posts frequently informative, but I have to disagree with you here.

I was away almost 2 months. I returned a couple weeks after U11 went live. Prior to my 2 months away, I played 90% of my time with a group of about 9 people. 4 of them quit after U11. I also have not seen many of the group of folks in our sister guild that I would run with on occassion.

[Xenostrata]

In a perfect world, I'd keep the changes to hp, reduce fort to a maximum of 50% on a boss, and add more tactical based mechanics to the raids - for instance, if you wanted to keep people from piking Reaver's, have a section of the ceiling be covered in spike traps, and the section moves around randomly - if you are under it when he reverses gravity, then tough.

Other ideas -

• Give hard/elite harry/horoth/suulo an AoE disjunction, and on elite they will follow it up with an Energy Drain and/or PW:K after 4-6 seconds (rebuff dw, fast)
• All raids would have an sp regen mechanic - not as powerful as Reaver's, but not as weak as Shroud. The ending variable on whether or not a group finishes should not be the healers' willingness to chug pots.
• Velah's Claws are now Orange named, and capable of being danced/held/fascinated. However, while they are alive Velah has an aura that grants her 25% elemental and light absorption per claw, 10% increased damage per claw, and gives anyone nearby (in front of the pillars) a 10% penalty to healing or repair spells for every claw still living.
• The CAD can now summon non-named flying abishai into its tent, and does so at 75%, 50%, and 25% health.
• The demon queen no longer trips things merely by moving over them, but instead has a trip attack that she likes to use quite frequently. Any attempts of "balling up" will simply lead to everyone being tripped. Also, the blade barriers she summons now do significantly more damage and move much faster, but do not cover an entire row and can be evaded by a skillful player.
• There is now a 9th portal in HoX, found on the ceiling of the center room. When Xyzzy hits 50%, it will spawn 1/2/3 orange named and 0/1/2 red named beholders.
• In VoD, the room has become about twice as large as before and all convenient holes in the walls have been removed. Suulo now can chain people, and once chained are drawn into the center of the room onto spike traps. Running against the direction of the chain will halt all movement.

Anyway, I just liked the idea of having new and interesting mechanics added to the quests instead of just making all the old numbers bigger.

[Callavan]

Make the final encounter in the raid a dance fight between your raid group and the boss and his minions. Wait... would that give the halflings an unfair advantage?

[munificence]

Roll back the old raids to pre-U11.

Introduce new epic content, such as Gianthold, that is much harder, and is balanced around having gear from the older raids. Then, go back and fix the drop rates so people don't have to grind 100+ runs without completing certain epic items *cough* desert epics *cough*.

[Chai]

Make raid encounters in more stages where its not just a DPS off.

Example:

Imagine the ending of the madness series part 1, with the mind flayer fight, only as a raid. The pods have to be hit a few times before they burst. The sacs have alot of HP and have to be beat down, and it gets harder and harder with trash spawns the longer it takes, like hound.

[llyrnionfor]

Make them unpredictable.

Forget about the "Repetitive Velah Breath", or the "Yawning Harry Fireball". Forget about Suulo doing "this on x% health" and "that on y% health". Give them less HP and less Fort, and more diversity.

ddowiki says Harry has Hold Monster, Mass and Greater Dispel, Mass. Hold has a Will save (after Dispel gets rid of those pesky FoMs). Harry is surrounded by melee types, whose Will saves can probably be beaten by a kobold shaman apprentice with a wand of Hold Person. Harry must be on a pay-per-use scheme, because I've never seen a held toon in Shroud.

Wanna have fun? Have him try to charm the healers.

Give the bosses more varied strategies. This would be a good start.

You know what I'd really love? To be able to complete quests by means other than combat. I know, that's asking too much. So I say make them unpredictable.

One last thought. You know the thing about lag? Don't look at it as lag, just imagine all the mobs/bosses have Time Stop

[Jendrak]

After reading a seeral responses I think there is something that needs to be considered when Makeing suggestions on how to fix something. It has been stated before that mob AI is one of limitations of the engine ddo uses. Translation....the smarter the mobs get the worse the systems responds. So while agree that giving the bosses better AI in regards to what spells they cast and who the go after this just isn't a pratcial solution at this time.

I think that the largest issues is that Turnine changed too much too fast. Had they just added fort to the bosses, released it, and then see how players respond or more importantly how it affects game play. From here you make a second adjustment, and the increased dmg, and see what happens, etc, etc.

I would suggest trying several builds of Lamma to find the right combination of HP, fort, and increased dmg from bosses that provides the appropriate mix. The idea being contemt that will still challenge us and possibly exclude a minority of players while not having it cranked up so bad that only the upper echelon of players are allowed to attempt it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I feel the need to point out yet again.... that "We" have 100% Fort, why shouldn't the raid boss? The guy who is way above our lvl.....

And the only problem I see with it is that it cripples (most) Rogues. (or it makes everyone think it does anyway)

Raiding is such an important part of most players game time.... the boss fight is a big deal.
Making one class feel gimped against the raid boss is just not fair IMO.

And giving weapons, or feat choices that allow "some" Rogues to be effective against raid bosses..."if" they choose the right feats, gear...etc....
is "not" the right answer.

In the future, I just think they should give lvl 21+ Rogues the ability to get SA damage against Fort. (not against SA Immune monsters though)


I wish I knew a better answer.
No matter how you change the raids....the boss fight is a big deal. Gimping one class against the boss is wrong.
Feats and weps is not the way to fix it.

Maybe make a normal Sunder attack reduce fort. Everyone can do that.

Maybe make a successful Sunder be a crit and get SA damage (but not against immune monsters) Plus reduces fort for a short time...

Actually the more I think about it, I really like this idea.

Make a successful Sunder Attack get full crit and SA damage. And make it slightly reduce fort for a time.

But I also say that go ahead and give the bosses 100% fort on elite.

[Jendrak]

Not trying to turn this into a heavy fort debate but there is a second affect of heavy fort on bosses besides rogues getting hosed. You are effectively adding an undetermined HP boost to a boss by giving them heavy fort or any fort for that matter.

For every crit that fort blocks that extra dmg is being (for lack of a better word) absorbed. Wether this is done through heavy fort (players) or massive hp (mobs and bosses) the effect is the same. The issue came about when bosses were given both heavy fort and insane boost to hp on harder settings and now fights that used to take 5 mins are taking 20 or more.

This is why I say the answer lies somewhere in between and the current implementation needs to be tweaked.

[Mackem]

1. Roll back U11 raid changes and do not waste time/resources ~rebalancing~ old content again.

2. Work on new content.

3. Profit.

[cdemeritt]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

Change nothing... The new weapons will make things easy again... just gonna take time... Kinda like the first VoD's before Everyone had MinII weapons...