Battle Cleric 18 Clr / 2 Monk: Advice requested

[Kahath]

Hello all!

I have a two man static group coming up, and I wish to take up the part of healing, some melee (I have a paladin on my side) and buffs. My first guess would have been being a bard. But since I already have a few bards, and know how to play and build them they would not provide much challenge. Yet the whole reason why we do those two man static groups is to play something we don't know very well yet to learn a class - and the limits - in depth.

So, long story short: My take on it: A battle cleric, human 34pt. 18 Cleric / 2 Monk.
As a prelude: I have the following:
* An old exploiter ranger that is being TRed.
* 2 x Mineral II Khopeshes (+4 Insight & +2 Wis AFAIR)
* Mineral II Helm & Conc. Opp. Cloak that combined give 150 + 50 + 100 SP & 10 + 15 + 20 HP.

17 Cleric / 2 Monk / 1 Fighter
Lawful Neutral
34 Pnt, Human

STR: 15 +2 Tome +5 Level +3 Exceptional +6 Item +1 Human +2 Rage +2 Guild = 36
DEX: 15 +2 Tome +6 Item = 23
CON: 14 +2 Tome +3 Exceptional +1 Human +6 Item +2 Rage = 28
INT: 8
WIS: 15 +2 Tome +2 Shroud +1 Cleric +6 Item +2 Guild = 28
CHA: 12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Guild = 22

1: Cleric: Empowered Healing, 2WF
2: Monk: Toughness
3: Fighter: Extend Spell*, Khopesh
6: Cleric: Oversized 2WF
9: Cleric: I2WF
11: Monk: PA
12: Cleric: Quicken
15: Cleric: GWF
18: Cleric: IC: Slash **

* Swap for Maximize once buffs last longer.
** Since I will be using Min II during my level up I can get away with taking this later.

Enhancements:
04 Unyielding Sovereignty
02 Follower of the Sovereign Host
01 Way of the Hitpoints
02 Human Improved Recovery I
01 Divine Might
02 Human Adaptability Strength I
04 Greater Human Adaptability II
02 Improved Heal II
01 Improved Turning I
06 Cleric Radiant Servant II
06 Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
06 Cleric Prayer of Life III
10 Cleric Life Magic IV
10 Cleric Smiting IV
10 Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
02 Cleric Wisdom I
03 Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery
06 Racial Toughness III
01 Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
01 Fighter Haste Boost I
80 Points spend

Healing line, and smiting line for divine punishment. A nice dot you can keep up at a boss while smacking him down.

HP:

20 ... Base
136 ... Cleric
16 ... Monk
10 ... Fighter
22 ... Toughness
30 ... Toughness Enhancements
05 ... Way of the Hitpoints
10 ... Draconic Vitality
180 ... Constitution
45 ... Shroud
30 ... GFL
-------------------------------
504 HP

To-Hit
20 / 20 ... Cleric + Divine Power
13 / 13 ... Strength
04 / 04 ... GH
03 / 03... Divine Favour
02 / 02 ... To-Hit (Spectrals)
05 / 05 ... Weapon
-2 / -2 ... 2WF
-5 / -5 ... PA
------------------------------
+40 / +40 To hit

SP: Around 1,6K should be possible.

The gear part is the tricky one, and I have to find a way to fit all the exceptional bonuses in in addition to at least some healing gear.

The tricky question is: Will this toon be a helpful companion in a two man static group? If yes, will this toon also be worthwhile when we have reached cap and are allowed to go separate ways? Meaning: Will this character be able to heal raids too? Would my to hit at least be sufficient to hit things in epics?

Feel free to give criticism with in the boundary of this build, meaning: Don't post things like "roll a FVS".

Regards,
K

[JeffreyGator]

To answer your first question this will be a great use solo and duo while leveling. Although grouped with a paladin you both have the same suite of abilities (healing, beating stuff up) without much differentiation.

My battle cleric works fine as one of two healers in a shroud. I suspect this will be fine as well.

I don't know that you would want to solo heal in shroud - although if your evasion gets high enough you might be able to solo harry on your own with aura and burst and single target heals. Your heals are relatively cheap with just emp healing and quicken. And you have decent spelll regen, toss in a mysterious bauble and as long as things don't go too sideways you should be ok to solo heal.

[Phidius]

Very interesting... I also had an "Exploiter" ranger that I TR'ed into a battle cleric.

I went with the 12 Cleric/6 Ranger/2 Monk at first, then switched to 2 Rogue. Not what I'd recommend as a PUG-friendly build unless you prefer to PUG with the competent.

I'd recommend switching your Wisdom and Charisma, and getting Divine Might3 with a +3 tome.

You shouldn't have any problems raid healing - I do it on my 17/3 clonk all the time (except when I'm having too much fun on my other builds).

[Meat-Head]

Do you need imp crit if you're gonna be using MIN2s? I'd swap for maximize (helps bbs, DP, hjeals, aura, burst)

Just a thought.

I'm sure you'll have a good time with it.

[Phidius]

Do you need imp crit if you're gonna be using MIN2s? I'd swap for maximize (helps bbs, DP, hjeals, aura, burst)

Just a thought.

I'm sure you'll have a good time with it.

Yeah, might be better taking Oversized TWF to avoid the additional -2 to each hand for using khopeshes.

[tikwid]

STR: 15 +2 Tome +5 Level +3 Shroud +6 Item +1 Human +2 Rage +2 Guild = 36
CON: 14 +2 Tome +3 Shroud +1 Human +6 Item +2 Rage = 28
WIS: 15 +2 Tome +2 Shroud +1 Cleric +6 Item +2 Guild = 28

what is this +3 shroud?

[Phidius]

what is this +3 shroud?

Hmmm... the +2 Shroud is on one of the GS Khopeshes, and +4 Insight on the other, so I think this is in error.

Maybe it meant +3 exceptional on a ToD ring, times two?

[Inferno346]

I'd drop extend for maximize and even IC:Slash for empower. Divine Punishment is just that powerful.

[Meat-Head]

I'd drop extend for maximize and even IC:Slash for empower. Divine Punishment is just that powerful.

Not a terrible idea.. But as a "battle cleric" you're really gonna want those short term buffs up.. Extend helps. One idea is to take extend and then feat swap it at 20 or something for empower. By 20 the duration of divine power/favor, recitation, etc.. may be dealwithable without extend.

[Raoull]

I get by without extend just fine. It's nice, but there are only a few spells where it matters, and they all have over a minute of duration even without it.

Maximize on the other hand.... is huge. Burst, BB and DP (actually doesn't work on aura) are all very valuable. Ditch extend for Maximize.

Since you use Min IIs, you could ditch IC for OTWF. Another option would be to drop to C17 for a fighter level and OTWF.

I do have tohit issues on occasion (epic Malicia is a pain....) and I use wraps so I don't have any minus tohit. You'll see it even more often.

If the duration on Divine Might were higher, I could see going that route. I had it for a while, but I like aura too much to waste a turn on DM. I ended up LR's and dumping CHA completely. Even with an 8 starting CHA, it isn't too hard to have 10 turns. (I have 11, but as a drow my dumped CHA is 10.) I'd either drop CHA for CON, or CHA plus a WIS for STR.

[Kahath]

what is this +3 shroud?

I have +2 Exceptional on my Mineral II. And I I actually planed to get +3 Exceptional on CON & STR through ToD rings, I just named them a bit misleading with "Shroud" since they are the same bonus (exceptional).

To answer your first question this will be a great use solo and duo while leveling. Although grouped with a paladin you both have the same suite of abilities (healing, beating stuff up) without much differentiation.

Well my friend never played a paladin before, so it should still be challenge.

Do you need imp crit if you're gonna be using MIN2s? I'd swap for maximize (helps bbs, DP, hjeals, aura, burst)

Just a thought.

I'm sure you'll have a good time with it.

This is actually a very good advise. Problem is: What if there's a new kid in town that does more DPS and ain't keen any more? So I am not really comfortable to drop IC: Slash just now...

I get by without extend just fine. It's nice, but there are only a few spells where it matters, and they all have over a minute of duration even without it.

Maximize on the other hand.... is huge. Burst, BB and DP (actually doesn't work on aura) are all very valuable. Ditch extend for Maximize.

Since you use Min IIs, you could ditch IC for OTWF. Another option would be to drop to C17 for a fighter level and OTWF.

I do have tohit issues on occasion (epic Malicia is a pain....) and I use wraps so I don't have any minus tohit. You'll see it even more often.

If the duration on Divine Might were higher, I could see going that route. I had it for a while, but I like aura too much to waste a turn on DM. I ended up LR's and dumping CHA completely. Even with an 8 starting CHA, it isn't too hard to have 10 turns. (I have 11, but as a drow my dumped CHA is 10.) I'd either drop CHA for CON, or CHA plus a WIS for STR.

Good to know that you can live with extend, because I wasn't really sure if I could drop it. But dropping Extend for Maximize is now something very well worth considering. That other fighter level: Good idea, would get me haste boost too, and I would still get two level 9 spells.

IMHO Divine Might I is still the better choice of all the other turn attempts spending clickies you can get. I still need one of those for Radiant Servant I and why not go with the one that best suits my battle cleric?

Again, thank you all for your help, I will go back to the drawing board and see if I can fit another fighter level and make room for Maximize and O2TWF.

[Kahath]

Thanks for all the postings so far, I have updated the OP with the build suggestions.

[EpiKagEMO]

Very interesting... I also had an "Exploiter" ranger that I TR'ed into a battle cleric.

I went with the 12 Cleric/6 Ranger/2 Monk at first, then switched to 2 Rogue. Not what I'd recommend as a PUG-friendly build unless you prefer to PUG with the competent.

I'd recommend switching your Wisdom and Charisma, and getting Divine Might3 with a +3 tome.

You shouldn't have any problems raid healing - I do it on my 17/3 clonk all the time (except when I'm having too much fun on my other builds).

I agree here. Getting more turns from cha is way better than having sp. you also get better damage too! (Divine Might) All you really need for the highest tier spells is a 19 wisdom.
i currently have a Cha based battle cleric, 14,16,14,8,12,14 splash pally for saves. using +1 tomes and khopeshes and doing fine. so im sure you can do A LOT better!

Extend might be a keeper since you will loose DCs from smite spells(lower wisdom). i spam divine power, divine favor, and divine mights on my battle cleric , what annoys me is that i cant afford extend, which means, those buffs barely last a full two minutes.

Just be sure to always have an ardor clickie... oh man how much those saved me during lower levels. 3minuteX3=10 minutes. on an average run, it'll run out just in time for the shrine.

I wish you good luck!

[JollySwagMan]

How crucial are the Khopeshes? If willing to drop Khopesh and Oversized, could pick up Empower (maximised, empowered, empower-healed, quickened Bursts are a godsend to a battlecleric, Divine Punishment has been mentioned too) and Stunning Fist (for a 39 DC with the stats listed, or 40 in Wis stance). While that would be lucky to get an Epic Orthon, it's sufficient for many enemy casters at level 20, and while levelling even a moderate Wisdom Cleric can have a bit of overkill with Stunning Fist DCs.

Also a fun (somewhat synergistic) thing with Stunning Fist on a Cleric is that you can Stun with a Scroll in your hand. Mind there's no way to have +stunning handwraps and a scroll equipped at the same time (and using a vertigo kama in offhand with a scroll in main while trying to trip doesn't actually perform a trip check), but again it may be enough for casters.

Staying centred is much easier now with cannith crafting, as you can make Devotion rings, Ardor/Brilliance clickie handwraps, efficient empower healing/healing lore kamas etc.

[unbongwah]

What about dropping WIS a bit for more STR & CHA (to get Divine Might II or III) for higher melee DPS? You'll lose a couple pts of AC and your DCs will go down; but it doesn't look like you really specced for either.

Do you have half-elves? If so you could go with them and take rogue dilly for 3D6 SA; you do lose a feat though and this build is pretty tight on them.

[SirValentine]

STR: 15 +2 Tome +5 Level +3 Exceptional +6 Item +1 Human +2 Rage +2 Guild = 36
DEX: 15 +2 Tome +6 Item = 23
CON: 14 +2 Tome +3 Exceptional +1 Human +6 Item +2 Rage = 28
INT: 8
WIS: 15 +2 Tome +2 Shroud +1 Cleric +6 Item +2 Guild = 28
CHA: 12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Guild = 22

<snip>

Feel free to give criticism with in the boundary of this build, meaning: Don't post things like "roll a FVS".

About your stats, others have mentioned it, but I'll say it again.

If you're not planning on using DC-based spells, you started with more Wis than you need. You can safely drop that from 15 to 12, use 2 of those build points to bump Cha up to 14 for Divine Might II with your tome, and still have 2 more build points for either +1 Str, +1 Con, or +2 Int.

As for raid healing, there's nothing in your build that prevents it. The only important difference in healing potential between a melee Cleric build like this one, and a full-******-healbot Cleric build is size of SP pool. Work on gear and mana conservation techniques to compensate.

[ShadowFlash]

I play a Dwarf TWFing Daxe 17/2/1 (currently 18) and I know your feat selection woes. I'll give you my opinions based on my duoing almost exclusively with my wife, a 11/8/1 AA ranger/bard/rogue.

Improved Crit: Wish I had it. I built my toon pre-cannith/alchemical crafting when MinII didn't sound so bad. Now, there are way to many other goodies to have that almost requires it for melee DPS

Maximize,Empower Heal,Quicken: Never again will i wait until level 18 on an RS cleric for quicken. Front load your meta's for the burst, if nothing else. The new U11 Meta toggle's make this possible now, as previously taking maximize early felt wasted due to lack of SP's.

Extend vs. Empower: I have extend. I am seriously considering swapping it out for empower. Better Bursts and better Divine Punishment are the clinchers here. I would take maximize over empower, and wait until 18-20 to swap extend for empower. I truly feel like my Punishments's and bursts could use the boost more than my melee (extended DP/DV).

This is where it gets tricky...

Power Attack/OTWF : IMHO it's both or neither. controversial, I know...but to-hit always being a concern, I find myself running quite a bit without it

If I had to do it all over as a 17/2/1 I'd go. (assuming your koepeshes)

Empower Heal
Extend...swapped to Empower
Toughness
Maximize
Koepesh
Quicken
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Imp. Crit

That leaves one more to choose..either keep Extend, or choose from Power Attack, OTWF, Stunning Fist, or if you're TRing..an Active Past Life Feat

Final Note on Divine Might: I went nuts and sprang for DMIII by shorting myself a couple STR. I would strive for DMII, keep all the STR you can get, and short WIS if needed. DMI just never felt "worth it" to spend a turn, but DMII did add a noticable melee boost.

Sorry for the WoT...lol

[Phidius]

What about dropping WIS a bit for more STR & CHA (to get Divine Might II or III) for higher melee DPS? You'll lose a couple pts of AC and your DCs will go down; but it doesn't look like you really specced for either.

Do you have half-elves? If so you could go with them and take rogue dilly for 3D6 SA; you do lose a feat though and this build is pretty tight on them.

If dropping Wisdom for more melee focus, consider only going up to 15 cleric, and taking 2 levels of fighter.

The biggest perk of going 17+ cleric on a low-wisdom build is Mass Heal, which a melee-focused cleric doesn't have time to cast.

I really want to change Fradul into such a build, but I'm leaning towards the pally dilly instead of rogue.

[ShadowFlash]

If dropping Wisdom for more melee focus, consider only going up to 15 cleric, and taking 2 levels of fighter.

The biggest perk of going 17+ cleric on a low-wisdom build is Mass Heal, which a melee-focused cleric doesn't have time to cast.

I really want to change Fradul into such a build, but I'm leaning towards the pally dilly instead of rogue.

I like the 15/3/2 Split better myself, and will TR into one next life...so many more possibilities, but enhancement choices are really tough.

That being said, I think the BIGGEST difference is "perception". By now, most people know that, unless poorly played, a 17/2/1 can easily revert to "healer mode". Conversley, not only does the 15/3/2 split have a harder time filling this roll (well played it is still possible), but the perception, right or wrong, will always be a "gimped melee".

[Raoull]

The biggest perk of going 17+ cleric on a low-wisdom build is Mass Heal, which a melee-focused cleric doesn't have time to cast.

Dunno.... I use Mass Heal from the front lines all the time. I think losing it turns you from the type of healer that can solo heal Shroud to one that must always raid with other healers. While the Mass Cures work just fine, the mana efficiency of Mass Heal is crucial with the clonks lower SP pool.

How crucial are the Khopeshes? If willing to drop Khopesh and Oversized, could pick up Empower (maximised, empowered, empower-healed, quickened Bursts are a godsend to a battlecleric, Divine Punishment has been mentioned too) and Stunning Fist (for a 39 DC with the stats listed, or 40 in Wis stance). While that would be lucky to get an Epic Orthon, it's sufficient for many enemy casters at level 20, and while levelling even a moderate Wisdom Cleric can have a bit of overkill with Stunning Fist DCs.

Hmmm.... I actually crunched the numbers a couple of weeks back..... Handwrap clonks can put out MORE dps than Khopesh clonks. It does rely on good wraps, and at least a Holy ToD ring. The rather major drawback is that getting good DR breaking Handwraps is extremely difficult. Without that, the Min II Khopeshes will win.

Handwraps do have the advantage of 2 saved feats (I assumed a wrap user wouldn't bother with IC) and +4 tohit (or 3 feats and +2 tohit).

But the new content does give the option of some very powerful DR breaking handwraps.....

Perhaps the best option is to be a Khopesh wielder until obtaining DR breaking wraps, and then swapping out those feats.