Pale Master Build Feedback Request

[Dalmorn]

Updated 8/31/2011 - There has been alot of good feedback provided in this thread. In an attempt to help people that are interested in or are looking to go "Pale Master", I have been adjusting/updating this build and topic with the feedback that has been provided from the great people within.

Note:
1. The reason I took/need “Mental Toughness” is because I want to have “Shroud of the Wraith”. Once I get "Shroud of the Lich" at level 18, I will probably use my free "Feat" swap and drop "Mental Toughness" and pickup Gr Spell Penetration.
2. Not interested in “UMD”, this is the reason why no points were put in to Charisma. This may change change once I get closer to End Game. If I do decide to go the UMD route, I will probably do a LR.
3. I Put 14 in “Strength” for a couple reasons. (1) Avoid being incapacitated while enfeebled. (2) Will not need any gear with +strength stats End Game. This would allow me to use other gear with different stat, skill or ability boosts rather than STR. (3) More carry weight before getting encumbered. (4) Makes the early levels easier doing melee do to the low SP points.

Dalmoris 20 Wizard "Pale Master" – First Life

True Neutral Human

32 point (Champion) Build

Starting Stat Options:

*High STR: Avoid being incapacitated while enfeebled and to up the carrying load
STR 14 +2
DEX 8 +2
CON 16 +2 (+1 from Enhancement)
WIS 8 +2
INT 18 +2 (+4 from Enhancements)
CHA 8 +2

Or

*Max CON: More Hit Points
STR 8 +2
DEX 8 +2
CON 18+2 (+1 from Enhancement)
WIS 8 +2
INT 18 +2 (+4 from Enhancements)
CHA 8 +2

Or

*Balanced: No Penalties except in DEX.
STR 10 +2
DEX 8 +2
CON 16 +2 (+1 from Enhancement)
WIS 10 +2
INT 18 +2 (+4 from Enhancements)
CHA 10 +2

OR

*High CHA: Great if investing in UMD.
STR 8 +2
DEX 8 +2
CON 16 +2 (+1 from Enhancement)
WIS 8 +2
INT 18 +2 (+4 from Enhancements)
CHA 14 +2

Feats Options- Updated after feedback:

**Feats if taking "Shroud of the Wraith"
1 Insightful Reflexes
1 Extend
1 Toughness
3 Mental Toughness
5 Empower
6 SF Necromancy
9 Quicken
10 Maximize
12 GSF Necromancy
15 Spell Penetration
15 SF Enchantment
18 GSF Enchantment
20 Heighten

**Feats w/out taking "Shroud of the Wraith"
1 Insightful Reflexes
1 Extend
1 Toughness
3 Spell Penetration
5 Empower
6 SF Necromancy
9 Quicken
10 Maximize
12 GSF Necromancy
15 Gr Spell Penetration
15 SF Enchantment
18 GSF Enchantment
20 Heighten

**Feats with "Shield Mastery" and "Improved Shield Mastery"
1 Insightful Reflexes
1 Extend
1 Toughness
3 Spell Penetration
5 Empower
6 SF Necromancy
9 Quicken
10 Maximize
12 GSF Necromancy
15 Gr Spell Penetration
15 Shield Mastery
18 Improved Shield Master
20 Heighten

Enhancements - Updated after Feedback:

**Enhancements if Taking "Shroud of the Wraith"
Wizard Intelligence III (12)
Wizard Master of Magic (2)
Human Adaptability Intelligence (2)
Human Greater Adaptability Constitution (4)
Wizard Energy of the Scholar III (6)
Racial Toughness II (3)
Wizard Spell Penetration III (12)
Wizard Pale Master III (8)
Shroud of the Lich (2)
Shroud of the Wraith (1)
wizard Frost Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Ice I (1)
Wizard Glacial Spellcasting I (1)
Wizard Storm Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Shocks I (1)
Wizard Charged Spellcasting I (1)
Wizard Improved Empowering I (2)
Wizard Improved Maximizing I (2)
Wizard Improved Quickening I (2)
Wizard Improved Heightening I (4)

*Note: If not going to take "Shroud of the Wraith", you have 1AP Point to spend. You could always use that to get "Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I".

*From levels 1 - 15, it is recommended to go with the following for leveling:
wizard Frost Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Ice I (1)
Wizard Glacial Spellcasting I (1)
Wizard Fire Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Flame I (1)
Wizard Combustive Spellcasting I (1)

At around Level 15 or 16, drop the Fire Line and go Ice/Energy or Ice/Force:
wizard Frost Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Ice I (1)
Wizard Glacial Spellcasting I (1)
Wizard Storm Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Shocks I (1)
Wizard Charged Spellcasting I (1)

Or

wizard Frost Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Ice I (1)
Wizard Glacial Spellcasting I (1)
Wizard Force Manipulation VII (7)
Wizard Deadly Kinetics I (1)
Wizard Kinetic Spellcasting I (1)

*Note: For additional great reading that has really helped me alot, see LeLoric's guide on "Building an End Game Pale Master" found here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302573

In conclusion, there are alot of different ways to go with Stats, Skills, Feats and Enhancments when building a "Pale Master" wizard. By no means is anything I have said meant to be the definitive way to go when building one. Alot of the choices ultimately comes down to play style and personal choice. What works for one person will not necessarily work for another.

I would like to say thank you to everyone that has provided valuable insight, feedback and advice in to creating a viable "Pale Master" Wizard build.


Thanks,

Dalmorn

[LolWutRoflstomped]

Go Full Cold 7/1/1 Electric with 1 point in fire damage. Also I prefer GSF Illusion and SF Illusion over the enchantments. I would swap mental toughness for quicken and insightful for empower.

[Oran_Lathor]

The build looks solid. Personally I like having both empower and quicken, but lots of people play without one or the other. Possibly consider giving up one of the spell foci enchantment to get both of those, though.

Enhancements: I think you're investing too heavily in dmg lines (esp. fire, against which a lot of endgame mobs are immune) but these are easily reworked every three days. I thnk you'll get more mileage from a few point in each of cold/lightning lines and use the freed up points for some improved metamagic enhancements. I usually go with imp. heighten/quicken/emp 1, and imp. max 2-- or there abouts.

Pretty standard wizard here, but it's the standard because it works.

[The_Brave2]

Couple things I can think of right off the bat:

Drop Insightful Reflexes - The damage mitigation will not help you enough to matter without a splash of rogue of monk
-Pick up Empower AND Quicken, both are necessary
Drop Fire Spec - Most mobs at endgame will be immune to fire
-Pick up Elec Spec - Lightning/Cold is the most effective endgame spec because of Eladar's Electric Surge and Niac's Biting Cold DoT's. Which are the most efficient and best damage spells currently ingame for single target.

Other than that, it looks solid if you are sure that you want the extra STR instead of extra CON, which I would advise against because you can have plenty of carrying capacity with a +STR item and you shouldn't spec you toon for low levels unless you plan on staying at them

Edit:

Go Full Cold 7/1/1 Electric with 1 point in fire damage. Also I prefer GSF Illusion and SF Illusion over the enchantments.

No, the most that an Illusion focus will help you with is about 200 SP for having both of them, along with increasing your PK chance at proccing, not worth it at all.

[Arasimaru]

My suggestions follow along the lines of the others.
-Drop Insightful Reflexes to take both Empower Spell and Quicken Spell.
-Lower Crit Range & Crit Damage to one enhancement point each (Thus freeing 10 points).
-Take the seven teirs of Storm Manipulation, as well as the first teir of the crit damage and second teir of crit range.

Reasoning:
1) Insightful Reflexes is virtually worthless to you without two monk or rogue levels, whereas quicken and empower both have distinct benefits.
2) Fire damage isn't as important and end game, though people tend to downplay it's use at endgame. Out of all the mobs at end game, about 35%-45% of them are highly fire resistant or immune. However, the two most run non-epic raids have bosses immune to fire. (Shroud, Tower of Despair), so investing in another line is a good choice. Removing crit from fire hardly reduces the spell you'll likely be using of that element (Wall of Fire), and it's a good way to fit electric in.
3) As stated by The_Brave2, electricity is a highly valued element due to Eladar's Electric Surge, and if possible it's always good to take something in electricity.

Your attribute point distribution isn't perfect, but I don't think it's going to impact your build in any signifigant manner.

[Dalmorn]

Thank you for the Feedback T_Brave, much appreciated, couple questions though.

Couple things I can think of right off the bat:
Drop Insightful Reflexes - The damage mitigation will not help you enough to matter without a splash of rogue of monk.

I don't know about dropping Insightful Reflexes, without it I wouldn't have a chance to pass epic saves, with that I I would think I would have at least over 50% to do this from what I have been reading from different posts on this. Even if it is lower that 50%, I would think some kind of saving throws added in would be beneficial. Definitely something to think about and test. This is a tough one.

-Pick up Empower AND Quicken, both are necessary

If I did drop Insightful Reflexes, I would be able to do this. Question is, If I decided not to drop Insightful Reflexes and I had to choose between Empower or Quicken, which should I choose? Is there any other Feat other than Insightful Reflexes that could be dropped in order to get both Empower and Quicken?
Drop Fire Spec - Most mobs at endgame will be immune to fire

-Pick up Elec Spec - Lightning/Cold is the most effective endgame spec because of Eladar's Electric Surge and Niac's Biting Cold DoT's. Which are the most efficient and best damage spells currently in game for single target

Good to know, I did not know this about Fire. I am all for effectiveness. Last thing I want is alot of my spells being resisted due to immunities or extremely high resists.

Other than that, it looks solid if you are sure that you want the extra STR instead of extra CON, which I would advise against because you can have plenty of carrying capacity with a +STR item and you shouldn't spec you toon for low levels unless you plan on staying at them
[/color]

14 in STR may probable be a bit high. The other option I was thinking about would be:
STR 10+2
DEX 10+2
CON 16+2 (+1 from Enhancement)
WIS 10+2
INT 18+2 (+4 from Enhancements)
CHA 8+2

Thanks again, much appreciated on the feedback and advice.

[Oran_Lathor]

For the record, I disagree with dropping insightful reflexes. Taking half damage all the time vs. full damage is huge mitigation for a class with aura healing. Many times it means your aura alone is enough to heal you through the delayed blast fireballs etc, when other PM are running away neg. bursting.

Insightful reflexes is definitely worth more, imo, than a second enchant focus.


Edit: don't put start points into dex (especiallllly if you have insightful reflexes, since that replaces dexterity's only functionality). Keep the starting str so you don't need a str item at endgame, or--as the brave was likely suggesting-- start with 18 int and 18 con.

[unbongwah]

Also I prefer GSF Illusion and SF Illusion over the enchantments.

Really? What for - Hypnotic Pattern & Phantasmal Killer? Hardly seems worth it.

Drop Insightful Reflexes - The damage mitigation will not help you enough to matter without a splash of rogue of monk

I disagree: taking half-dmg is still better than taking full dmg, esp. on a low-HP class like wizard. Besides, he's not really hurting for feats.

-Pick up Empower AND Quicken, both are necessary

Agree - I would probably drop Extend or GSP or GSF Enchant to fit them in.

[Dalmorn]

The build looks solid. Personally I like having both empower and quicken, but lots of people play without one or the other. Possibly consider giving up one of the spell foci enchantment to get both of those, though.

Enhancements: I think you're investing too heavily in dmg lines (esp. fire, against which a lot of endgame mobs are immune) but these are easily reworked every three days. I thnk you'll get more mileage from a few point in each of cold/lightning lines and use the freed up points for some improved metamagic enhancements. I usually go with imp. heighten/quicken/emp 1, and imp. max 2-- or there abouts.

Pretty standard wizard here, but it's the standard because it works.

I dropped Fire and picked up the Lightning line and going Cold/Lighning. Would it make sense to drop both lines to 7/1/1 or just one of the lines (Lightning Line)? Doing this would Give me 10 - 20 points to reallocate to the MetaMagic Enhancments.

Thanks again Oran_Lathor for your advice and feedback.

[Oran_Lathor]

I dropped Fire and picked up the Lightning line and going Cold/Lighning. Would it make sense to drop both lines to 7/1/1 or just one of the lines (Lightning Line)? Doing this would Give me 10 - 20 points to reallocate to the MetaMagic Enhancments.

Thanks again Oran_Lathor for your advice and feedback.

I prefer 7/1/1 in both lines, myself. the first points give 4x the pay off of the succeeding points, and the meta-enhancers are just a better bang for your buck at that point. Plus, with 7/1/1 in cold and elec, your dps will be above most all melee when you've got both niac's and eladars running. Going full lines, you will have to be careful not to pull agro off your hate tanks all the time. That said, with this build, once you have endgame gear, you will be able to tank raid-bosses yourself and self-heal through most of them

Have fun, and you're welcome for the advice.

[The_Brave2]

Thank you for the Feedback T_Brave, much appreciated, couple questions though.

Np, happy to help.

I don't know about dropping Insightful Reflexes, without it I wouldn't have a chance to pass epic saves, with that I I would think I would have at least over 50% to do this from what I have been reading from different posts on this. Even if it is lower that 50%, I would think some kind of saving throws added in would be beneficial. Definitely something to think about and test. This is a tough one.

For the most part in epics your saves will not matter, the only thing you will have to save against is a AOE spell since traps are practically non-existant in Epics (save for the sands epics). With high hp and self healing you will not have to worry about taking a few extra damage off of spells. If you really want to get insightfull reflexes think about taking a 2 rogue splash so you get the full benefit from it. (meaning you take a -2 Int Penalty and no free reduction to Meta's) Although I do not suggest this, it is a viable choice.

If I did drop Insightful Reflexes, I would be able to do this. Question is, If I decided not to drop Insightful Reflexes and I had to choose between Empower or Quicken, which should I choose? Is there any other Feat other than Insightful Reflexes that could be dropped in order to get both Empower and Quicken?

If you decided against dropping insightful reflexes I would drop Greater Spell Pen - Few mobs have high enough spell resist that 1 feat + 3 Enhancements isnt going to give you enough, the main examples of mobs you would want spell pen for would be from eChrono/eDA. Mobs that have very high spell pen tend to have it high enough that no matter what you do it wont get you even in the 20% chance range, examples being drow in the Sentinels chain. I can attest that on my Second life WF AM that Spell pen is not an issue with the past life +2, and the 3 Enhancements, which would be the same as you would have with one enhancements.

Good to know, I did not know this about Fire. I am all for effectiveness. Last thing I want is alot of my spells being resisted due to immunities or extremely high resists.



14 in STR may probable be a bit high. The other option I was thinking about would be:
STR 10+2
DEX 10+2
CON 16+2 (+1 from Enhancement)
WIS 10+2
INT 18+2 (+4 from Enhancements)
CHA 8+2

Thanks again, much appreciated on the feedback and advice.

The new stat distribution looks good. As per fire, it is still the best leveling spec imo.

I disagree: taking half-dmg is still better than taking full dmg, esp. on a low-HP class like wizard. Besides, he's not really hurting for feats.

Taking half-dmg is highly over-rated imo, and Wizard is by NO means a low hp class as either a PM or a WF. Currently my WF AM is hitting 570something HP buffed without a GS HP item. He is hurting for feats, he is struggling to fit in both empower and quicken

[Oran_Lathor]

I will certainly not say that Insightful Reflexes is necessary, but have you tried it The_Brave? My wizard hits 627 hp (double TR pale master, very similar build to the OPs), and I find insightful reflexes to be a very valuable feat.

Also, it's slightly more useful on a pale master than an archmage, in my opinion, since it turns a 500 dmg sunburst into a 60 dmg sunburst. Not to mention, with auras, taking half damage often means you can let the aura top you off in a tick as opposed to needing to cast a burst. Is it worth more than an extra spell focus or spell pen feat? Matter of opinion, but it is definitely a solid feat choice.

[LolWutRoflstomped]

No, the most that an Illusion focus will help you with is about 200 SP for having both of them, along with increasing your PK chance at proccing, not worth it at all.

I cast PK like its going out of style. Circle, and Wail. PK and Finger Survivors. More 8 second cooldown instakills is always better. Just use it on the melees and Finger on casters.

[LolWutRoflstomped]

Insightful is definitely playstyle. I use ring of djinn and firestorm greaves when I need absorb with prot spam and am fine.

[Oran_Lathor]

Insightful is definitely playstyle. I use ring of djinn and firestorm greaves when I need absorb with prot spam and am fine.

Agreed, it's a playstyle thing. But with it, you wouldn't need to prot spam most of the time. I stand in the middle of elite Enter the Kobold (without greaves) and don't need to prot spam.. Just auras and nuke the bosses (once i've taken out the living meteor swarms).

[The_Brave2]

I cast PK like its going out of style. Circle, and Wail. PK and Finger Survivors. More 8 second cooldown instakills is always better. Just use it on the melees and Finger on casters.

PK is certainly nice, and I do have it prepped. but its not worth the feats imo

I will certainly not say that Insightful Reflexes is necessary, but have you tried it The_Brave? My wizard hits 627 hp (double TR pale master, very similar build to the OPs), and I find insightful reflexes to be a very valuable feat.

Also, it's slightly more useful on a pale master than an archmage, in my opinion, since it turns a 500 dmg sunburst into a 60 dmg sunburst. Not to mention, with auras, taking half damage often means you can let the aura top you off in a tick as opposed to needing to cast a burst. Is it worth more than an extra spell focus or spell pen feat? Matter of opinion, but it is definitely a solid feat choice.

I have tried insightful reflexes, but on my first life of my AM, So i cannot say that its not effective for a PM, so it would defiantly be a playstyle choice, however I would still suggest dropping it in favor of both quicken and empower

[Oran_Lathor]

Yeah, I agree I would take quicken and empower over IR. I just think some of the other feats are worth less on this build than any of the 3.


Anyhow, OP, your wizard will be fine following any of the advice in this thread. These are all little things. You've got the major things right.

[Tirisha]

personally I'd drop mental toughness (lich>wraith) to pick up quicken and empower. If you don't take both, I'd recommend quicken if you see yourself taking on the more challenging quests. I've seen somebody try to CC EDA without quicken once and let me just say..... it didn't end well for most of the party, the rest took a trip through a blue transparent door.

also consider going the 18 int, 18 con route, all your other stats are just for show really. *str is only useful for carrying cap.*

[The_Brave2]

Yeah, I agree I would take quicken and empower over IR. I just think some of the other feats are worth less on this build than any of the 3.

I thought the same thing at first also, but for a new capped caster it is important to have high DC's/Spell pen, so the GSF necro AND Enchantment is going to help him a lot.

Yep, he does have the major things right, should be a good build.

personally I'd drop mental toughness (lich>wraith) to pick up quicken and empower. If you don't take both, I'd recommend quicken if you see yourself taking on the more challenging quests. I've seen somebody try to CC EDA without quicken once and let me just say..... it didn't end well for most of the party, the rest took a trip through a blue transparent door.

Didn't realize you didn't need mental toughness for lich, if this is indeed the case, I would agree. Dropping Mental Toughness for quicken and Empower would make more sense if you are highly against dropping IR

However, if you do drop IR I would keep mental toughness for more SP.

[Dalmorn]

I prefer 7/1/1 in both lines, myself. the first points give 4x the pay off of the succeeding points, and the meta-enhancers are just a better bang for your buck at that point. Plus, with 7/1/1 in cold and elec, your dps will be above most all melee when you've got both niac's and eladars running. Going full lines, you will have to be careful not to pull agro off your hate tanks all the time. That said, with this build, once you have endgame gear, you will be able to tank raid-bosses yourself and self-heal through most of them

Have fun, and you're welcome for the advice.

Thanks again for the feedback, this will help me alot with 20 points getting freed up to invest in the Metamagics.

If you decided against dropping insightful reflexes I would drop Greater Spell Pen - Few mobs have high enough spell resist that 1 feat + 3 Enhancements isnt going to give you enough, the main examples of mobs you would want spell pen for would be from eChrono/eDA. Mobs that have very high spell pen tend to have it high enough that no matter what you do it wont get you even in the 20% chance range, examples being drow in the Sentinels chain. I can attest that on my Second life WF AM that Spell pen is not an issue with the past life +2, and the 3 Enhancements, which would be the same as you would have with one enhancements.

I will probably keep the Insightful Reflexes and and figure it can't hurt for the leveling process and Epics along the way, especially with being a first life "Human" Wizard. As far as picking up Quicken, I am leaning to dropping the GS Penetration. Since I am freeing up about 20 points from both the Cold and Lightning line, this should help me with getting Metamagic enhancments and more Spell Pen to offset not having GS Penetration Feat.

Revamped Feats:
1 Insightful Reflexes
1 Extend
1 Toughness
3 Mental Toughness
5 Maximize
6 SF Necromancy
9 Spell Penetration
10 SF Enchantment
12 GSF Necromancy
15 Quicken
15 Empower
18 GSF Enchantment
20 Heighten