Chimera's Defender

[Szordrinn]

Hi everyone,

I'm still thinking about a paladin build that would have good synergy with the new eChimera's Fang. After a few attempts, i made this build. I know it's not very versatile and would lack dps when a tank is not needed but i like the flavour behind the tatoo and the sword !!!

Without sacrificing too much of tanking ability, do you have suggestions to improve this toon ?

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Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 230 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 15
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             17                    26
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     2
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         2                    29
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     3
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  1                     2
Intimidate            6                    36
Jump                  5                    16
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         1                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  3                     8
Tumble                2                     3
Use Magic Device      4                    14

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation III
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation IV
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II

[NeutronStar]

Why the THF feats when you're going to S&B almost exclusively?

In my opinion, the grazing hits aren't worth spending 3 feats on.

Losing the Paladin Capstone could be devastating to the build unless you slot that Red Augment slot with the Good crystal.

If you drop the 2 fighter levels (and the THF feats) and go pure, you'll get the Weapons of Good capstone. Then you can slot that Red Augment slot with Cold Iron and get the benefits of Silver, Cold Iron, and Good. You'll have a really nice Demon and Devil boss beater all in one weapon!

[Mubjon]

Why the THF feats when you're going to S&B amlmost exclusively?

In my opinion, the grazing hits aren't worth spending 3 feats on.

Losing he Paladin Capstone could be devastating to the build unless you slot that Red Augment slot with the Good crystal.

If you drop the 2 fighter levels (and the THF feats) and go pure, you'll get the Weapons of Good capstone. Then you can slot that Red Augment slot with Cold Iron and get the benefits of Silver, Cold Iron, and Good. You'll have a really nice Demon and Devil boss beater all in one weapon!

He needs the fighter levels to get in all the Feats he needs, as to make the best use of the fang you need all three Dragonmark feats.

[Szordrinn]

actually, the aim here would be to calculate the difference between :

- 3 THF feats without paladin capstone
- 1 THF feat with paladin capstone with 1 less in strength, no haste boost

pure paladin attracts me as well, help me to decide !!

[Krinn83]

You also lose tower shield proficiency without those 2 fighter levels.

[NeutronStar]

You also lose tower shield proficiency without those 2 fighter levels.

Not if you're Human and drop the THF feats.

H - Tower Shield Proficiency
1 - Toughness
3 - Combat Expertise
6 - Sentinel Dragonmark I
9 - Shield Mastery
12 - Sentinel Dragonmark II
15 - Power Attack
18 - Sentinel Dragonmark III



Notable Missing feats:

Improved Critical - Not necessary as Epic Chimera's Fang and Mineral II weapons are Keen and doesn't stack with IC.

Extend Spell - This is a problem for me. I really like having Divine Favor, Zeal, and Prayer lasting as long as possible. Sure it's not really NECESSARY but it is nice to have.

Skill Focus: UMD - Not REALLY necessary either but nice to have nonetheless.

Improved Shield Bash - Nice to have for the extra automatic shield attack it grants but hard to fit in.

[Szordrinn]

Not if you're Human and drop the THF feats.

Notable Missing feats:

Agree Improved Critical - Not necessary as Epic Chimera's Fang and Mineral II weapons are Keen and doesn't stack with IC.

Don't think it's a paladin feat and as i am playing a cleric, it becomes a quite useless feat at level 20... Extend Spell - This is a problem for me. I really like having Divine Favor, Zeal, and Prayer lasting as long as possible. Sure it's not really NECESSARY but it is nice to have.

Hum... Skill Focus: UMD - Not REALLY necessary either but nice to have nonetheless.


I suppose you COULD drop Improved Shield Bash and replace it with one of the "Missing" feats above but doing so sort of goes against the "shieldy" feel of the build.

answers in red

[unbongwah]

I don't see Power Atk - that's kind of an important one...

[Ralmeth]

Hey Szordrinn,

What about going pure Paladin, dropping the THF feats (all of them) and picking up power attack? My favorite situation is when it makes sense to fight in S&B mode with a kick-butt weapon with power attack turned on (usually this is Amrath for me).

As for tower shield, this is one of half a dozen feats that I think could be helpful to have, but you can get by without. You'll probably want an epic shield if you're planning your whole build around an epic weapon, at which point you won't be using a tower shield.

[Ralmeth]

I don't see Power Atk - that's kind of an important one...

Unbongwah,

Do you know how many times you slightly beat me to it? LOL.

[NeutronStar]

answers in red

MANY Paladins use Extend Spell.

I don't see Power Atk - that's kind of an important one...

What about going pure Paladin, dropping the THF feats (all of them) and picking up power attack?

Power Attack is definitely more important to the THF builds. For a Sword and Board build, not so much.

Besides, if CE and PA still work the way they used to, you cannot have both on at the same time.

If you're going S&B as the OP said he's going to do, you're going for defense/AC otherwise, why would you be using a shield? So in this case, CE is better for the +5 to AC.

As for tower shield, this is one of half a dozen feats that I think could be helpful to have, but you can get by without. You'll probably want an epic shield if you're planning your whole build around an epic weapon, at which point you won't be using a tower shield.

Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

[RTN]

Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

Put some points into UMD and use a Master's Touch scroll for Tower Shield Proficiency. In a feat starved class, this is a much better way to do it.

I think even a build like this should have Power Attack. When you aren't actively intiming, you're probably better off swinging a greataxe or falchion. Since intim these days isn't as good in group of mobs, you're better off having a DPS mode and saving your intim mode for bosses.

[LeLoric]

Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

I disagree completely here. The current best shields for a shield use are the epic Kundarak or the Epic swashbuckler. Yes they do lose some damage reduction due to shield mastery but other than that they have the same ac and 1 less point of blocking dr. As for the rest the stats are much better they have no limit to max dex, don't lower to hit etc. Levik's shield is just no longer in the same tier.

[NeutronStar]

I disagree completely here. The current best shields for a shield use are the epic Kundarak or the Epic swashbuckler. Yes they do lose some damage reduction due to shield mastery but other than that they have the same ac and 1 less point of blocking dr. As for the rest the stats are much better they have no limit to max dex, don't lower to hit etc. Levik's shield is just no longer in the same tier.

I don't really see anything particularly attractive about the Epic Kundarak Warding Shield. The Epic Swashbuckler has some nice stuff on it for sure but for a Pally S&B who's going to be tanking and generating hate most likely, the Levik's set is still better. I mean seriously, the Swashbuckler is a Small shield (thus only blocks 10% of Physical damage with the Shield Mastery feat) and it's blocking DR is a paltry 8. Levik's shield blocks TWICE the amount of incoming physical damage and it's also is almost TWICE as effective in regards to Blocking DR as its Blocking DR is 15.

Again, the Levik's set adds 3 more to AC, 20% more to Threat AND an occasional Heal spell proc.

I think the Levik's set stands up quite well for S&B builds and it's also fairly easy to get!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Some thoughts:
1. Swap improved shield bash for power attack. Useful for those times while tanking that you don't need combat expertise. Crucial for those times when you aren't tanking and you pull out a big 2 hander.
2. Swap concentration for balance. Don't really see much point in concentration but balance is handy to stay on your feat.
3. Bastard Sword + GTHF is better single handed DPS than khopesh if I remember correctly by some maths that somebody did. Hence, this is a good idea. If you don't want to go GTHF then I'd say you'd be better of with a khopesh of some description.
4. I'd consider starting with 16 charisma to provide easy access to DMIII (which is good single handed DPS). If you pick up a +3 or +4 charisma tome then you can TR/LR to adjust stats accordingly.
5. Diplomacy might be handy to have as with the new raid it is important to be able to shift aggro between 2 tanks. Probably not worth it on this build but something to keep in mind.
6. Combat Expertise isn't going to be worthwhile in many situations. I'd probably consider swapping it to improved shield mastery for a little bit of extra DR (that will work regardless of your gear) and then if you get enough AC gear that your AC will matter in end game raids/epics then you can TR/feat swap to pick it up.
7. Not having weapons of good on the eFang isn't that big a deal as it loses some DPS against demons anyway who are immune to shocking burst damage (but not as much as it used to with lightning strike being changed to disintegrate). However, what weapon will you use against demons? There aren't many good choices (beyond 2 handers).

[Szordrinn]

Some thoughts:
However, what weapon will you use against demons?

I think i could get a crafted holy burst cold iron longsword of pure good/greater chaotic outsider bane...

Or if i go pure, i slot cold iron on the eChimera's Fang... but i'd loose iTHG and gTHF and add 1-2d6 to all attacks...

can't decide here...

About power attack, i prefer to save a feat and have less damage in dps mode.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think i could get a crafted holy burst cold iron longsword of pure good/greater chaotic outsider bane...

Or if i go pure, i slot cold iron on the eChimera's Fang... but i'd loose iTHG and gTHF and add 1-2d6 to all attacks...

can't decide here...

About power attack, i prefer to save a feat and have less damage in dps mode.

You need power attack, please don't make a tank without it. Realise that you need gear from raids/quests that don't need a tank, hence, you have an obligation to your party to bring a worthwhile character which implies power attack. You aren't a melee without power attack.

Tanking is between 1 and 5% of the game. Rest of the time prepare to DPS.

[Skavenaps]

i already studied going paladin pure or fighter pure when i saw the chimera fang changes (had a toon ready for TR waiting for a vible heavy armored tank build). and i gave up on the paladin side. simply, not enough feats. fighter will be always superior.

[wax_on_wax_off]

i already studied going paladin pure or fighter pure when i saw the chimera fang changes (had a toon ready for TR waiting for a vible heavy armored tank build). and i gave up on the paladin side. simply, not enough feats. fighter will be always superior.

What does fighter vs paladin have to do with anything? I love that you've managed to make a viable paladin tank build using the new eFang, +1

Just ... do it properly (ie, don't skip power attack).

[NeutronStar]

You need power attack, please don't make a tank without it. Realise that you need gear from raids/quests that don't need a tank, hence, you have an obligation to your party to bring a worthwhile character which implies power attack. You aren't a melee without power attack.

Tanking is between 1 and 5% of the game. Rest of the time prepare to DPS.

False on both counts, just utterly false.

1. There is no single feat that anyone "must" have (unless it's a pre-req for a PrE or something). What determines whether a feat is optimal for a toon is the Purpose of the toon and the play-style of the player. I've got a Defender of Siberys with no Power Attack and sure his DPS isn't the best in DDO. But I don't care. If I wanted DPS, I would have rolled a Monster or Exploiter build. My DoS' AC is very good, his Intimidate is pretty high, and his amount Hate generation is also high. With the changes coming to Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys (see http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...26#post4016126 and http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...42#post4016142), his AC, DR, HPs, and Hate generation will ALL be Outstanding. He will be able to keep the agro versus anyone and survive to tell the tale.

2. Tanking CAN be WAY MORE than 1-5% of the game. You just have to know what you're doing. Well-timed and sufficiently high Intimidates can bring whole groups of mobs beating on you instead of the divines, casters, or other squishies in your group. Sure, Intimidate can wear off rather quickly but those few seconds where the mobs are beating on you rather than your party's Wizard or Cleric can make ALL the difference and with your high AC (assuming you really build for it) and DR, you'll survive those few seconds of getting beat on easily. If your Hate generation is high enough, you place your melee attacks well enough, and you have the right equipment (guards like Corrosive Salt for example), you'll keep the agro of entire groups of Mobs.

(Speaking of Guards, I forgot the Levik's Defender shield also includes Sonic Guard which is a nice little bonus. It's not great, but it's nice.)

Now, to be sure, there will be times when taking out your Epic Hellstroke Greataxe or some other two-hander will be more desirable than "tanking" (like beating the Stormreaver down after the lever has been thrown, when Xyzzy is vulnerable, or beating on portals, etc.) but those times are fewer and farther between than when you can tank if you desire. If you're like me, you'll choose to "tank" pretty much at all times. You'll use your high Intimidate skill to draw the mobs to you like flies or be the Hate turtle against the likes of Suulomades or Horoth.

For me, there are significantly more times to "tank" than not "tank." Therefore, I consider Power Attack to not be a necessary feat in this case.