Are you willing to put your money where your gripe is?

[Kalari]

Okay PVP fans as a PVE fan I have made it known how I feel about the implementation of pvp many times in the past. As a Dungeons and Dragons fan I never felt pvp had a place in this game. As a gamer though I realize that different things call to different people. Also as someone with many capped characters I can understand the need to want a different outlet to utilize your play time hence why I petition for many time sinks. But just like I did when I begged with others for housing I knew I had to make my plea noticeable by asking myself these questions.

1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

4. Will it disrupt game balance?

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.

Point blank the reason pve is such a focus is when new dungeons/explorer areas are introduced they can make packs which players can opt to buy bringing in revenue. With pvp there is no charge for it so your basically getting what you pay for. My question to you pvp players is this:

What would you pay to have a better pvp system? If they implemented an area where it was complete player vs player with a workable environment would you spend your hard earned dollars to move to said area (if it was a server) Would you spend Turbine points to buy a pack for a quest line that pitted you versus your fellow player population? Honestly if it brings in more revenue even if I would not find myself ever partaking in it I wouldnt be so vocal against pvp. But for now I am not seeing any real reason for the developers to give it any more thought then what we have. Id love to see someone think out a way for the game to profit and make those who really like pvp happy but I just dont find myself caring for the cause. Maybe someone out there who enjoys this can change my mind. Im putting that challenge out to you pvp pro people.

[Stormanne]

is deafening.

Like a lot of people, the vocal minority that wish for more PvP focus, want it but don't want to pay for it. Not saying that all of them wouldn't be willing, I'm sure there are those that would be, just thinking that a lot of them are not.

As it is, I don't think that there should be any work on PvP until there is a large enough of a group of players that are regularly taking advantage of the other forms of it, not just Tavern Brawling Pits.

[heyytoi]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

[Xenostrata]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

[phillymiket]

Excellent points Kalari.

I'd actually enjoy if there was a pack or an event that pitted one party against another.
That would be fun.

But I can't support changing the game so that a small group can better PvP.
If nothing else it would attract more people who would ask for more changes toward PvP and drive away the majority group who wants to play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have no interest in seeing this



turn into this



However, if someone had ideas that would help the game as a whole, keep PvE untouched and make the PvP experience better while not sucking up all the dev time I'd be all ears.

[fuzzy1guy]

nm

[Kalari]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

That is honestly how ive felt about ddo to but I am trying to be fair. As much as ddo represents mmo dungeons and dragons it is also a video game. And since going free to play has attracted many different style players. I see all the time them talking about pvp balance, pvp being more interesting. Yet nothing set solid.

When we petitioned for housing there were many threads that just used the "well this game has it." that argument gets shut down faster then an illegal ring near a police station. Basically many of us started sitting down figuring out what we wanted out of housing, what it could bring to the game, and how they could make profit from it (which they do from selling guild amenities, to fluff items such as ship beacons). Sure we put up with those who would simply type "its a waste of dev time" or "no thanks I wont use it." Or even better yet "i'll leave if they put housing in." Trust me everything said to you pvp types has been aimed at this gal to when the housing crusade was going on. The difference now is still no threads laying out exactly what outside of "this class is too over powered" do I see anything laying out what would interest you. What kind of zones, what restrictions? Should it be free for all or limited by level? You see more detail more focus would go a long way. And as I said before you really get what you pay for with pvp. Unless they can find a way to make a pack from it I dont see it ever getting the focus pve does.

[ehcsztein]

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like.

Funny I see the same gripes in PvE threads. *shrug*

I would enjoy more PvP in this game.

I would pay for the content if it was required. (ie. if it was a "pack" that for some reason wasn't free for VIP.)

I believe PvP options can be increased without upsetting PvE.

I have had PvP sessions in the PnP setting and found it great fun. Sometimes it is just fun to roll up characters within a set of agreed limitations and have them fight out gladiator style for a night.

I feel PvP is worth just as much dev time as crafting and airships have been as it also only satisfies a portion of the populous.

I would find enjoyment in increased PvP options and will continue to support the idea.

I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to see that additional PvP content is a worthwhile investment for the devs. If it is worthwhile we will see it. If it is not we won't.

None of us outside of turbine have enough credible information to determine what is or is not a worthwhile investment of their time/resources.

[Kalari]

I think the play bases wants is a credible way for them to focus its why they send out polls every once in awhile asking for such things. And the more vocal people get things done. The thing is pvp would require a lot of work from where we have it now, but without knowing truly what pvp players want why should they even listen to anyone speaking about it? So far the only people making very coherent arguments are the ones against pvp. This thread was aimed at seeing if maybe people who are for it could come up with ideas to get some interest in making it better.

But I can see by the poster above me attitude that "its not worth the time" for some. So don't expect to see anything change. If pvp is an important enough aspect for you to come to the boards to vent about I do not see why its so hard for someone into pvp to sit and think out a way to bring it into the game that benefits everyone even those of us who do not like it. As I said before if it brings the game dollars even I wouldnt argue against it.

[ehcsztein]

The suggestion for group vs. group play comes up frequently in PvP advocacy threads.

Recently there as been an interest in seeing the tech used for the Crystal Cove event to be used for GvG play.

There is a host of options for doing that as well...such as:

Collecting Challenges
Protection Challenges
Destruction Challenges
Killing Challenges

With rewards going to the winning group of course. The reward system could be similar to what was done for Crystal Cove as well... that being access to and improvement of items only available through that process.

The idea of rewards for PvP seems to be a major stumbling block for many of the vocal anti-PvP folks but, the one thing that motivates players more than anything from my observation is loot.

Even the most adamant anti-PvP folks would be tempted to play in events with the possibility of new shinies even if it meant playing against other human controlled groups.

Crystal Cove was a rather successful occurrence and did not require the player base to pay real $$$ in order to participate. It is also indicative of Turbine adding something beyond the scope of things actively requested by the forum community.

Similar things could be done with a GvG slant just as easily. Players were not required to participate in that event. Much like they are not required to explore Epic Content, the GS hamster wheel, or new crafting system in order to enjoy the game.

It was an option that was enjoyed by many and scorned by some much like any change to the available mechanics of the game.

I also believe that Turbine is capable of adding GvG play a successful way without tampering with the PvE game aside of equipment additions. Of course they already tamper with the PvE game by way of equipment additions/changes all the time so that is largely a moot point.

[stille_nacht]

well id like a nice PvP system sure, but i wouldnt support it until more content is available. At least 1.5 times as much as we have now, and at least enough freebie quests to comfortably get to 20

if that point occurs, then PvP systems are simple, have either
A- a seperate server for PvP with tweaked values of abilities and spells,
or B- when people enter PvP instances (say, capture the flag or something), said tweaked values will come into play.

but for now, the focus should be more content (and a bit of balance between classes PvE wise, and certain aspects of the game could be polished [AC, graaaa]).

[mr_O]

I never spend more then a few minutes in the brawling it. It is a horrible excuse for PvP action, there was little to no thought put into it at all.

That being said, I came from guild wars and will be leaving for guild wars 2. The feeling of knowing you CAN go PvP in a dynamic setting big enough to evade those spells with enough cuts to sneak around and flank your enemy is amazing. It is an excellent way to massage egos and settle grudges.

DDO can and should do a better job with pvp, there should be DEDICATED pvp areas added to all the servers. I suggest a new tavern in house D that leads to seperate instances like quests but set for PvP. Have 3-4 (to start) different areas of varying sizes and complexities. When you select a door it should have something akin to n/h/e selections but instead for free-for-all teams or CTF. Alternatively you could have a player talk to an npc and join a que for a pvp match sort of like they have in WAR.

As for a way they could make a tidy sum of profits off of it, take a page out of guild wars and allow players to buy a character slot JUST FOR PVP. Allow this toon to be created at level 20 and given basic high end gear, plus 5 fullplate plus 5 swords,sheild,etc. This character should not be allowed outside of the pvp tavern thus limiting the gear he can get to anything he can mail himself or trade for. This lets people access a wide spectrum of pvp but allows the PvE people to come in and wreck face with all the BTC raid loot they put in time and effort to get.

As it stands and this is directly to turbine and is a nerdrage over my BIGGEST PvP complaint. YOU COMPLETELY d*&^ED OVER ROGUES. we cant sneak/ go invis. Everyone and his brother has heavt fort, so no snk dmg. Pretty much everything a rogue SHOULD do in pvp they CANT do in pvp. Please fix this.

pvp being fixed will take a long time and some dedication on the devs part but i feel it can be fixed and made into a fun, interesting, and profitable aspect of DDO. I mean face it who doesnt wanna stroke theyre *cough* egos *cough* as theyre 92nd trd female elf barb destroys the big burly half orc.

[ehcsztein]

Believe me I want more standard content as well.

If, say before the Crystal Cove event went live, I was asked whether I wanted more quests(standard content) or to have a challenge system implemented I would have easily picked more quests.

However, they developed the technology implemented the event and needless to say I really enjoyed it!

The same thing might be possible for players who are automatically opposed to PvP content.

Things can be developed concurrently after all.

[Thorzian]

I'd donate $100 to the deletion of pvp. Does that count?

Bet i'm not alone either.



I suggested once that they monitize the ability to even enter pvp. Judging from the neg rep offa that.. Pvp players aint gonna pay jack.

+1 you are not alone. wanna pvp? go play wow. it has a great pvp system

[Kalari]

See this is what I like now you are talking adding ideas. It is far easier to say what you want to see out of pvp then just feeling defeated. Look I still may not get it but I like the ideas I am seeing its called being open and seeing a structured want for something.

And yeah I know some of the hold outs will be in this thread and already are there is nothing you can do about them Id just like to see this thread used for people who have well enough thought out ideas who knows who is reading this stuff or where it can take you. If you really believe that pvp can be brought about without affecting those of us who prefer pve and game balance and have set ideas why stand idly by? The people at Turbine gave us these boards to sound off but coherent sound off pays off a lot better.

[Ungood]

I personally do not like PvP either.

And the idea of making a P2P PvP zone, is appealing to me, especially if it is given it's own private general chat channel.

[ehcsztein]

+1 you are not alone. wanna pvp? go play wow. it has a great pvp system

I have played WoW. I did enjoy the PvP system. I did not enjoy the rest of the game mechanics in general so the idea of only playing in order to enjoy a very small percentag of the content didn't seem worth it to me.

Whereas I do enjoy the game mechanics of DDO and believe they could be applied for PvP improvements.

[Kalari]

Now im not going to tell folks not to post in this thread if they are anti pvp because thats just silly I only hope the discussions in here stay civil. I look at it this way time sinks are a needed factor in the game. Some time sinks people will utilize such as housing, events. Some dont I think more options and more revenue are very okay things to add to ddo. If people for pvp can come up with solid concepts that can be added without messing with our over all pve environment why stop them?

Just some food for thought.

[SisAmethyst]

...
With rewards going to the winning group of course. The reward system could be similar to what was done for Crystal Cove as well... that being access to and improvement of items only available through that process.

The idea of rewards for PvP seems to be a major stumbling block for many of the vocal anti-PvP folks but, the one thing that motivates players more than anything from my observation is loot.
...

While I agree that loot is a major incentive I have big concerns if gear and items where implemented that actually force me to participate in any PvP or GvG. While the basis currently is PvE and nearly everybody can participate I would vote against anything that shift this due to loot that is in anyway more then flavor and only achievable through PvP.
I wouldn't compare that with "...not required to run Epic Content..." neither as the base items still can be obtained with the regular Quest. Not to mention that you first have to reach a certain level and probably more player would run Epic content if the grind for scrolls and Co. wouldn't be that insane as you can see on the success of the items of Crystal Cove.

What would help probably is, if the PvP zones would alter certain behavior of spells and skills to balance them. Like we already have it that we can't cast underwater for example. However if that would be the case I can already see players running amok and creating bug reports because either their description doesn't match in this zone or they think its bugged. Also while usually the brawl is as well used to test new spells or skills, it wouldn't be possible anymore to get valid information this way. Thus very much undesired. For example most of the Greensteel effects have been tested and reported via fights in the brawl.

Also while the PvP brawl seems to be used, I have the impression that the private PvP/GvG instances - that you already can do - aren't used that much if at all. So I am uncertain if investment into this would pay off. Also I agree with stille_nacht that for the casual and F2P player we may first need a whole bunch of Quests and Zones that need more focus as well as the missing Epic content.

Crystal Cove was a rather successful occurrence and did not require the player base to pay real $$$ in order to participate. It is also indicative of Turbine adding something beyond the scope of things actively requested by the forum community.

While it was not necessary I am pretty sure that a lot of players bought at least a compass or potions to increase the doubloons. Turbine is a company that need to make money, they not create this stuff just to amuse us. So how exactly would you add PvP or GvG that create exactly this revenue for Turbine? Adding items that only can be obtained via PvP aren't the way to go. So just saying it is possible doesn't mean it's viable, like it is for me possible to jump from a bridge but very unlikely to happen.

[MsEricka]

I too would pay to have PvP removed.

That is all.