Clarification request - Turbine wants solo farming at level 20?

[Riggs]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294990

Suggestion post about removing scrolls from epic crafting, or making them drop like other items - in chests.

Right now scrolls ONLY dropping for a single person only encourages people to be greedy
- instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja, or roll on something you dont really need - people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free' have no incentive to mention they are just going to go sell it say rather than actually use it - like say the other people in the quest who are helping them get that scroll might use it.

Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now. Or only run with people they trust - and then after a quest is maybe done, post an lfm for the final boss they need help with, or else they just keep going back over and over - solo, for scrolls.

So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.

If it is unintentional it should be changed - assuming the premise that DDO is not supposed to be looking for more ways to solo rather than be a cooperative game.

If it is intentional - why is this one mechanic the only one like it? If Turbine wants to make a solo farming game why not add more opportunities to solo farm?

Encouraging solo farming reverses one of the reasons raids where changed form the glyph system to a 'everyone has a chance in the chest' type mechanic. Although the main problem with that system was that one person controlled the glyphs, not that 'only' 2 things dropped. Since in 12 person groups now very often less than 2 things drop.

Every single other loot mechanism in the game is something where everyone can loot it, and you get better odds for having MORE people in the group, not LESS.

So why bring it back for epic scrolls?

[azrael4h]

Everyone has a chance to pull a scroll now; it doesn't just "drop for a single person" as you say. While people may or may not put scrolls up for roll, this is normal for other areas in DDO, like Raid loot. Your loot is your loot, and it's not anyone else's decision on what you do with it; my loot is my loot, and I will do with it as I see fit. One of the quickest ways to get blacklisted is to insist that no one has right to the loot they pull except you.

There is no incentive to solo farm for epic scrolls now at all. Everyone has the same chance of getting the scrolls. This is not hardly a situation where only the raid leader gets the raid loot, and no one else gets any/only select guildies get any. Everyone in the group has an equal chance of getting a scroll to drop, the only difference from raid loot is that it drops in their inventory rather than in a chest. And changing that won't change people's willingness to put stuff up for a roll or not.

*edit*

Interestingly enough, I read a thread that seems to post the theory that turbine has actually made it harder to solo farm epic scrolls than farm in groups. Don't ask me if it's correct, I'm not running the numbers, or epics until they become legitimate and don't invalidate pretty much 90% of spells and abilities in the game.

[LordDamax]

Epic scrolls are just a symptom of the problem. The game is full of disincentives to group. There are SO many quests in the game that's easier with 1-3 than it is with 6. We spent 90 minutes in Bastion Elite last night... and wiped. Multiple times at the end fight.

The consensus after banging away at it for a while? It would have been easier with the WF barb and the WF wiz in there as the only 2 in the end fight. The other 4 of us just complicated matters.

And thats not the only thing in game that discourages grouping. Its frustrating to see in-game mechanics encourage people to exclude others.

[Hokiewa]

Epic scrolls are just a symptom of the problem. The game is full of disincentives to group. There are SO many quests in the game that's easier with 1-3 than it is with 6. We spent 90 minutes in Bastion Elite last night... and wiped. Multiple times at the end fight.

The consensus after banging away at it for a while? It would have been easier with the WF barb and the WF tank in there as the only 2 in the end fight. The other 4 of us just complicated matters.

And thats not the only thing in game that discourages grouping. Its frustrating to see in-game mechanics encourage people to exclude others.

It's just the latest "appearance" of a symptom. Grouping seemingly was to be encouraged when they introduced dungeon alert/"glancing blows". Then with the addition of dungeon scaling, store items etc... the shift went to soloing. Then with the introduction of TR it made somewhat sense to group more often.

I honestly believe that there is no real direction on anything anymore. Every "new" addition seems to simply contradict a previous one.

Either way, solo farming scrolls gives my sorc something to do.

[pHo3nix]

Epic scrolls are just a symptom of the problem. The game is full of disincentives to group. There are SO many quests in the game that's easier with 1-3 than it is with 6. We spent 90 minutes in Bastion Elite last night... and wiped. Multiple times at the end fight.

The consensus after banging away at it for a while? It would have been easier with the WF barb and the WF tank in there as the only 2 in the end fight. The other 4 of us just complicated matters.

And thats not the only thing in game that discourages grouping. Its frustrating to see in-game mechanics encourage people to exclude others.

There are not disincentives to group; there are disincentives to group with people/builds that would make your life in quests harder...

IT: scrolls farming is a nice thing to do when you haven't much time to play

[Therigar]

Regardless of system, if you can solo why wouldn't you?

And, if you can't solo, why wouldn't you group?

The drop mechanism and drop rates really have nothing to do with it.

The real issue is the same one that is in every other loot thread -- whose loot is it and how is it distributed. If you rub away all the other distractions that is what it comes down to.

I really wish Turbine would just hide the loot information from the group. It solves so many problems.

Good people get to be good people, "Hey, I just got a gizmo. I can't use it. Anyone need one?" Jerks get to be jerks, Hey! I just got a gizmo. I can't use it. Someone probably needs it. I think I'll sell it.

We get to make note of the good people. We never know about the jerks. It reduces all the drama. Well, on Khyber they will have to keep showing loot, but everywhere else....

[azrael4h]

The real issue is the same one that is in every other loot thread -- whose loot is it and how is it distributed. If you rub away all the other distractions that is what it comes down to.

This. Some people seem to have an entitlement problem; that everything that drops should be passed to them if they can use it (or at least put up for a roll if they can use it). With TRs and oddball builds who can tell who can use things?

And Khyber is drama. Remove all loot from the game, and we can still find some drama. :P

[TheSwamper]

I don't know about epic scrolls, but I'm all for anything that makes the game more solo-friendly.

I know it's D&D. I know it's an MMO.

I enjoy teaming sometimes. I always, always, hate having to.

[tihocan]

Epic scroll farming is definitely the dumbest thing in the game IMO. It encourages solo farming in those few specific spots where you can have the highest kill/min possible, with the few specific builds who can actually solo them efficiently.
At least I can buy them off the AH, but still, I'd much prefer get my scrolls completing fun quests with other people.

[sweez]

I like the game giving me choices, instead of forcing me into grouping even when I'm in no mood for human interaction, or when I just have 5 minutes to kill before I'm busy again. Also, I actually think this game lacks enough high-end solo content for situations where there's nothing interesting on the LFM for HOURS (some of us play from Europe heh).

eVon1/4-eOOB-Desert chests-eWizking-eLast Stand-Sins of Attrition-SubT route gets boring after a while.

No, I'm not a people person, I don't put up LFMs myself.

[Ungood]

Like most MMO's, Turbine is "Trying things" and seeing if they work, and don't think their is idealism just because it is a game, it's a company with all the drama and BS that companies carry with them.

Just keep that in mind when you ask "What are they thinking?"

[IronClan]

Seriously how many times does it need to be pointed out? The game randomly distributes them, you don't need to do anything else. The guy who got the scroll won a random roll...

You didn't

You aren't entitled to his loot...

Just as you aren't entitled to the loot in the chest with his name on it.

Everyone helped, everyone got a chance, one person got the scroll. Move along nothing to see here, if the person doesn't need it or wants to put it up for a roll that's his or her choice.

IMO Turbine should put the scroll's loot roll into party chat, or use a system like LOTRO which lets you choose to roll on a drop, or not. But that said, re-rolling is still silly.

[Schmoe]

Actually, this raises a question for me.

When a monster dies in an epic quest, which of the following is correct?

A.) Every player has an X% of getting a scroll added to his inventory. A single monster could (theoretically) generate 6 epic scrolls!

B.) A single scroll has an X% of being generated. If it is generated, one random party member will have the scroll added to his inventory.

C.) Something else.

[tihocan]

Actually, this raises a question for me.

When a monster dies in an epic quest, which of the following is correct?

A.) Every player has an X% of getting a scroll added to his inventory. A single monster could (theoretically) generate 6 epic scrolls!

B.) A single scroll has an X% of being generated. If it is generated, one random party member will have the scroll added to his inventory.

C.) Something else.

It's supposed to be B.

[Cyr]

I certainly am not a fan of content design that encourages people to avoid grouping. Scroll drops certainly place a strong incentive on going it alone.

An easy way to eliminate this counter incentive while still allowing people to solo for scrolls if they feel like being bored is to change the scroll drop mechanics to instead of rolling a % for a single scroll each time a mob is killed to instead have it roll that same % per person in the party. That way it makes sense to actually run with groups if you want scrolls, just like pretty much every other thiing in the game.

Encouraging solo play is bad game design. MMO's keep people playing in large part due to the social aspects of the gaming. If you are better off being alone then this benefit to MMO's bottom lines is drastically reduced. The proper way to approach the solo vs. group question is that you want to make solo play rewarding, but always less rewarding then group play. In this manner you keep people who would have any inclination to group grouping a large amount of the time which keeps them playing longer.

[kernal42]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294990
So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.

It's an unintentional consequence of encouraging people to actually kill epic mobs. Without scrolls dropping, I'd run through epic quests faster just hypnotizing everything and moving on. This behaviour is even worse than the application of some incentive to solo-farm.

Also, you should really try to understand that the process of scroll dropping for someone is fundamentally no different than a seal or shard dropping in someone's name. The only difference arises because scrolls are unbound and can therefore be traded.

Cheers,
Kernal

[T-Town_Titan]

Past 2 nights...2 full runs...no scrolls (Wiz king)....one run with no seals or shards as well.

Not to fuel your fire or anything Riggs as I know your hard at work on the post to get Monks "Greataxe as monk weapon" for me..so carry on Soldier

[Schmoe]

It's supposed to be B.

If that is the case, then solo scroll farming is somewhat encouraged by the mechanics, at least for those who have the means to do it.

[Riggs]

Past 2 nights...2 full runs...no scrolls (Wiz king)....one run with no seals or shards as well.

Not to fuel your fire or anything Riggs as I know your hard at work on the post to get Monks "Greataxe as monk weapon" for me..so carry on Soldier

I keep trying to no avail.

But once monks get x4 crits on fists your greataxe will be meaningless mwahaaha!

I saw another thread where people ahve noticed a significantly lowered drop rate while soloing scrolls.

My guess would be somehow the odds are changed to like raids - a % chance per person, accompanied by a significantly lowered chance for a solo person to get scrolls.

Since taking scrolls out would cause issues - whats wrong with putting them in chests also?

[Riggs]

This. Some people seem to have an entitlement problem; that everything that drops should be passed to them if they can use it (or at least put up for a roll if they can use it). With TRs and oddball builds who can tell who can use things?

And Khyber is drama. Remove all loot from the game, and we can still find some drama. :P

That mentality is another issue, but related.

"Well i MIGHT TR one day into a caster, so my barb is going to take the caster ring, even though the caster in group RIGHT NOW needs it, not maybe, in a couple months, but now - so I am going to take it anyway and I dont care if the other person can ACTUALLY use it vs my gimpy hybrid build that isnt going to be doing much anyway so its going to be wasted on him."

More or less - while some people have good builds, and a firm plan for TR - many are just TRing because they can, and want an item they are only going to use for like 1 level , hit cap, then TR again into something else and the item is wasted.

Or people have the mentality that "Well that paladin ring would be good for the paladin - but I do need the +1 cha on my fighter because I might get .5 more intim - so I am going to roll and take an item designed to give a set bonus to paladins because I am too selfish to realize the item wont really do me any good anyway"

The point of people actually gathering around and rolling on something is at least the group can put some peer pressure on a moron and tell them "No in fact your fighter doesnt need the archmage ring, the wizard can actually use it, you can go find a +6 int item somewhere else" - or "You want to roll on this cleric item scroll and you have no clerics? How about AFTER you TR into one, and are the one healing this run - THEN you roll on it? Rather than try and take it from the cleric who is here NOW, needs it NOW, and saved your behind already?Hmmm?"

One is about reasonable fair play, and one is about "Screw the people I am running with, I need to be a hoarder - or even I know I can sell it - so I dont care about the people that I am running with".

Anyway, enough ranting for one thread.