To TR or not TR that is...

[Loftus]

I have an AA who is just shy of 17th level and cannot in my heart TR her, she is way to good a character to do that to her. The level 20 cap is beyond ridiculous. I mean there is not a level 20 cap on LOTRO which is a turbine creation also. Third edition which this game is supposed to be based on does not have a level 20 cap. Monsters do not have a level 20 DC cap. So why would I ever settle for capping my character, it is absolute madness. Now I will grant you that in 3rd edition prestige classes have level caps, of which AA is a prestige class. However that character can still go into another class at that time if they so wish to. So still no cap. Why would anyone out there do that to a character you created? I am just curious and want feedback please (positive and negative equally welcome).

[redraider]

The lvl 20 cap was a business descision. The subscritption base method was losing Turbine money on what should be a very popular and profitable franchise. The change to F2P with microtransactions requires that the lower levels be well fleshed out to "hook" a new player. Turbine made a simple, and it seems, very effective business descision to cap at 20 and concentrate on the lower levels. There is now a ton of content lvl 1-14 that is a blast to play (unless you have been here since beta and run it alreayd 100 times) and DDO is making the money Turbine needs to continue to develop the game. Simple. Smart. Business.

Maybe they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the night before?

Now, having agreed that Turbine made a smart business descision, bring on lvl 21-30 and continued travel through the planes! Think about a lvl 30 Half-Orc Frenzied Beserker VI with a Lightning Strike IV Double-Axe! BooYa!

[dkyle]

It's really more of a "level" 100 cap compared to other MMOs. Most MMOs don't provide as large steps in power at each level that DDO provides. Ranks are more analogous to levels in other MMOs.

And the level 20 cap exists because that's the highest level in 3.5 PnP where things don't get completely ridiculous. The Epic level rules are absurd. While they've changed many things in those 20 levels, going beyond level 20 would be a huge undertaking of new design work.

If you don't want to TR her, don't. It's not mandatory.

Also, monster CR is basically irrelevant, outside of a very few spells. It's a mostly arbitrary number that vaguely represents the relative threat monsters present. It isn't really anything like the levels that we get.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Your post is very confusing.

1) Are you mad that Turbine implemented capstones in characters or are you happy?
2) Do you want to TR your character or not?
3) What is your post about? (In 20 words or less) so some of us can understand?

[jwdaniels]

Actually, there is a level 20 cap in 3rd edition - epic levels are the purview of an optional expansion rule book.

They added the ranks to each level so that you can conceptually consider that you have 100 levels, not 20.

[Loftus]

The epic level book was not a suggestion of optional rules it is what D&D stands for, from the days of basic through whatever the current version is, this great game has never, ever set out to limit character growth. The basic players handbook for 3rd was meant as an introduction to the game not an end all set of guidelines. If we use that logic then would you say that the only Savage Species allowed are only the ones already broken down to the level progression, no I think not it also gives basic guidelines so that any and all monsters were/are able to be used. You see the idea of presenting this game as D&D and then limiting levels is against the very grain of what this incredible game was originally PnP developed for. It cuts to the heart of pure D&D players who have a character they really make a connection with and then at some predetermined business set cutoff thanks for your time but we won't continue to reward that character but we will continue to take your money.

[dkyle]

this great game has never, ever set out to limit character growth.

When did we start talking about character growth? Levels don't equal character growth.

And level caps have always been a part of D&D. Heck, a major part of early editions was that demi-human races had lower caps than humans.

we won't continue to reward that character but we will continue to take your money.

I doubt you've exhausted all the character rewards available upon reaching a level 17 non-TR. Once you cap, rewards come in the form of Raid loot, not XP. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Also, the expectation is to create more characters. This is a game that highly rewards leveling alts, trying out new builds.

[therobb]

Don't get the feeling that your character is "done" just because they're level 20. When your character reaches level 20 in their first life, they are nowhere near their full potential.

That's why many would argue that the game begins, not ends, at level 20.

When your favorite character hits level 20, continue improving them by acquiring raid loot, crafting Shroud, ToD & epic gear. TR & repeat.

There's plenty of fun to be had even if you don't have more levels to gain.

[Red_Knight]

The epic level book was not a suggestion of optional rules it is what D&D stands for, from the days of basic through whatever the current version is, this great game has never, ever set out to limit character growth.

Ok, thank you for that gem. I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Let me get my 2nd edition AD&D DM guide. Chapter 2 of the 2nd edition DM guide has a table labled Racial Class and Level Limits. It's table 7 if your wondering. According to this..

Humans can achieve any level in any class without restrictions.

Dwarves can at most be a level 10 cleric, level 15 fighter, or level 12 thief. If they didn't multiclass, that mean a dwarf can never level beyond 10 if a cleric. Those are the only classes they can chose too.

Elves can achieve level 12 cleric, level 12 fighter, level 15 mage, level 15 ranger, or level 12 thief. Again, only classes they can be so if you don't multi-class your stuck at that level.

Gnomes can achieve level 9 cleric, level 11 fighter, level 15 illusionist (can't be a general mage), or level 13 thief.

Half-elves can reach any level as a bard, but are limited to level 14 as a cleric, 9 as a druid, 14 as a fighter, 12 as a mage, 16 as a ranger, or 12 as a thief. So a half-elf fighter mage could be a level 14 fighter/level 12 mage.

Halflings could achieve level 8 as a cleric, level 9 as a fighter, or level 15 as a thief.

So everything but humans was limited in what classes they could pick, as well in how high a level they could obtain. And remember that if you multi-classed you average your hit die for each class by how many classes you have. So a fighter/mage with a con of 10 could have at most 7 HP at level 1. Could gain at most 2 HP each time they level as a mage, and at most 5 HP each time they level as a fighter. And their con bonus is awarded only once per set of levels. So a con bonus of +3 to hit points for a 3 class multi-class gets 1 point of their con bonus each time a separate class leveled.

No limits indeed.

[Loftus]

Ok, thank you for that gem. I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Let me get my 2nd edition AD&D DM guide. Chapter 2 of the 2nd edition DM guide has a table labled Racial Class and Level Limits. It's table 7 if your wondering. According to this..

Humans can achieve any level in any class without restrictions.

Dwarves can at most be a level 10 cleric, level 15 fighter, or level 12 thief. If they didn't multiclass, that mean a dwarf can never level beyond 10 if a cleric. Those are the only classes they can chose too.

Elves can achieve level 12 cleric, level 12 fighter, level 15 mage, level 15 ranger, or level 12 thief. Again, only classes they can be so if you don't multi-class your stuck at that level.

Gnomes can achieve level 9 cleric, level 11 fighter, level 15 illusionist (can't be a general mage), or level 13 thief.

Half-elves can reach any level as a bard, but are limited to level 14 as a cleric, 9 as a druid, 14 as a fighter, 12 as a mage, 16 as a ranger, or 12 as a thief. So a half-elf fighter mage could be a level 14 fighter/level 12 mage.

Halflings could achieve level 8 as a cleric, level 9 as a fighter, or level 15 as a thief.

So everything but humans was limited in what classes they could pick, as well in how high a level they could obtain. And remember that if you multi-classed you average your hit die for each class by how many classes you have. So a fighter/mage with a con of 10 could have at most 7 HP at level 1. Could gain at most 2 HP each time they level as a mage, and at most 5 HP each time they level as a fighter. And their con bonus is awarded only once per set of levels. So a con bonus of +3 to hit points for a 3 class multi-class gets 1 point of their con bonus each time a separate class leveled.

No limits indeed.

Ok perhaps you were to busy reading your dm's guide to understand the basic concept they are just general guidelines not the end all set in stone, must obey, there can be no other rules. The only thing that can't be gotten around is if something was based on a stat and you didn't have high enough in that stat. As far as characters go the sky is the limit. If we go with your pristine logic then there must be absolutely go drow that are good in alignment, because hey those books don't lie. Wait but how then did I end up with a drow arcane archer that is lawful good, surely it must be a typo on my in game character sheet or better yet a glitch in the server. Even with the stat thing for instance when they would say that you need X amount of INT to cast 9th level spells what would that mean to you? It would mean just as it says no 9th level spells but it would not mean that a character could still not gain levels as a wizard just no access to the 9th level spells. But I suppose your book doesn't tell you that either does it?