ToD: Sucka Punch!

[rimble]

ToD got changed. I shoulda probably kept this to Lamannia Discussion, just wanted y'all to see it.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Wow. How absolutely garbage. The save thing would not be so bad, but the negative energy damage is ****.

[SolarDawning]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.

[rimble]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.

Assuming you get past both of those Fortitude saves.

[voodoogroves]

Possibly.

I'm curious as to the DC calculation. Even with decent stats a +10 stunner is required to really land stunning blow/fist reliably and that's the same target. An additional 25% that you now have to buff first on top of 250 is still less than 500. If the DC were like assassinate (10+monk level+X instead of 10+1/2 monk level) then it might land 500 more. As it is, no.

What it does mean is that many things are simply unaffected (at least if implemented similar to the 3.5 SRD base definitions). All those mobs w/ deathward are going to be immune. That's quite a lot in the end game. Prey on the Hunter, for instance. All constructs, undead, etc. Everything in epic.

[SINIBYTE]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.

ZOMG! You mean I can spend 90 Ki to maybe do 312 damage?

[Mobeius]

Really? Who didnt see a TOD nerf coming?

I realized it as soon as I logged on and saw 15 guildies logged on and only 4 were not dark monks. Saw that and thought "Yep, I smell nerf."

Old saying... If its probably too good to be true, it probably is.

I was holding off conclusions about dark side monks till U7, if it didnt make a mention or cut by then I would have had made a dark side monk.

[rimble]

Really? Who didnt see a TOD nerf coming?

A lot of people actually. The extent of the nerf is a bit surprising however. Just leave off the Negative Energy bit and I'd be fine with it.

[Mobeius]

A lot of people actually. The extent of the nerf is a bit surprising however. Just leave off the Negative Energy bit and I'd be fine with it.

I can see the reasoning for negative energy though considering light side is positive energy and they are to be diametrically opposed.

[Angelus_dead]

All those mobs w/ deathward are going to be immune. That's quite a lot in the end game. Prey on the Hunter, for instance. All constructs, undead, etc. Everything in epic.

No, Epic monsters don't have Deathward. I don't think the Prey giants do either.

They have Deathblock, which is different and weaker.

[Odin's_Hugin]

I like the change, though. Touch of Death should apply for living stuff, in a way to KILLING them. It's like a dark-aligned move that makes you project dark (aka negative) energy into a living being, killing them.

Besides, every class should have some weakness.

* Light monks are good against undead and tainted creatures, while being relatively nice against the rest. Same as dark monks against constructs. Have moderately good buffs.

* Dark Monks are very good at killing any living creatures (250-1500 damage), while doing very bad against undead. Same as light monks against constructs. Have moderately useful de-buffs (dark;dark;dark finisher is more useful now).

So, dark monk STILL have more dps than light, only a bit more situational. Light can do moderately well on all situations, while dark can excel in some and be not very good in others.

Balance.

[Mobeius]

A clarification, since I've seen this misstated a lot:

Deathblock effects (including the Epic Ward and most similar effects) do not protect against Touch of Death.

The Death Ward spell does protect against negative energy, but is significantly rarer than generic deathblocks.

A little more FYI... basically if a mob doesnt have death WARD the TOD will still take affect. That inlcudes Prey on Hunter giants and such.

[Asymetric_War]

Just hit 10 on my Ninja/Assassin TR. First life I was very pleased with the build and have been grinding very hard to cap her again. Now... I think i'm going to focus on other toons. Adding in a fort save and nerfing the damage type means that against undead (where she needs the damage boost the most due to lost sneak attack) are now immune and that against virtually everything else she'll only ever get half damage. Once again, Turbine ****s builders for no good reason in favor of single-class WoW-style toons. It's complete and utter ****. at 12 enhancement points to get it it's by far the most expensive ability dark monks get. With these changes it's not worth even a fraction of that.

No DM would dare to change the rules on their players like this and if they did they'd be looking for another group very quickly.

It's not the first time the devs have changed the rules dramatically and broken one of my builds and I know it won't be the last. I suppose it's part of playing an MMO, but it sure as hell isn't a part I like. This change doesn't help the game and it doesn't help monks. In fact the only people who are going to come out ahead on this one are the bean counters at Turbine who are going to make a killing off all the people forced to buy Hearts of Wood to fix their now-broken builds.

and I suppose that's really what it's all about, isn't it?

[Resilian]

So, with the nerf, is it going to make more sense going Dex/Wis Wind/Earth instead of STR + Fire/Earth?

[Mobeius]

Just hit 10 on my Ninja/Assassin TR. First life I was very pleased with the build and have been grinding very hard to cap her again. Now... I think i'm going to focus on other toons. Adding in a fort save and nerfing the damage type means that against undead (where she needs the damage boost the most due to lost sneak attack) are now immune and that against virtually everything else she'll only ever get half damage. Once again, Turbine ****s builders for no good reason in favor of single-class WoW-style toons. It's complete and utter ****. at 12 enhancement points to get it it's by far the most expensive ability dark monks get. With these changes it's not worth even a fraction of that.

No DM would dare to change the rules on their players like this and if they did they'd be looking for another group very quickly.

It's not the first time the devs have changed the rules dramatically and broken one of my builds and I know it won't be the last. I suppose it's part of playing an MMO, but it sure as hell isn't a part I like. This change doesn't help the game and it doesn't help monks. In fact the only people who are going to come out ahead on this one are the bean counters at Turbine who are going to make a killing off all the people forced to buy Hearts of Wood to fix their now-broken builds.

and I suppose that's really what it's all about, isn't it?

Nah, its about balance, just like batman builds back in the day made Evasion MC toons that wore heavy plate. The did a balance pass on that and back then and they FIXED that mechanic and then people were screaming nerf, they were quitting, how unfair it was to take it away after letting them have it, etc.

Everytime there is something too powerful and take it away there is always the nerd rage/quit group that takes it personal.

FYI, any gaming group I was with if the DM thought something was too powerful or unbalanced they would correct it. Now depending on the nature of the change they would usually allow the player some allowance to make some changes. Minor or major depending on the rules change.

[SINIBYTE]

So, with the nerf, is it going to make more sense going Dex/Wis Wind/Earth instead of STR + Fire/Earth?

With the nerf it's going to make sense to roll another class...

The worst part is the investment you make in your characters only to have them beat down. This is really the reason I stopped playing almost every MMO in the past. And it will probably be the reason I stop playing this one. I don't enjoy investing my time and money only to have someone change the rule on me mid stream.

I can see a pattern though... FvS are better healers than Clerics, guess what? Go to the DDO store and buy FvS. Want a top STR toon? It's not WF anymore, now its half-orc, better go to the store and buy half-orc. Want a top DPS toon? It's not going to be monks anymore.

Not only that, we've all probably lost another potential tanking class in the game.

[Soleran]

I can understand min/max people really getting upset over the changes to dark but really why did they have to keep flaunting insane tod hits and super str builds? It's generally in the nature of the beast if it's to good to be true then it probably is, building a character though off of one ability of one class is the extreme.

Shintao will get some cool changes, I am glad about the fort saves for the ToD I do however wished it would have stayed untyped rather then negative.

[Resilian]

Thinking about this Post-U7.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Zaeken TR WF
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 332
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 14                   14
Dexterity            16                 22                   22
Constitution         17                 18                   20
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               14                 14                   16
Charisma              6                  6                    6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3

                   Ending           
                 Base Skills        
Skills           (Level 20)         
Balance              28             
Bluff                -2             
Concentration        28             
Diplomacy            -2             
Disable Device      n/a             
Haggle               -2             
Heal                  3             
Hide                  6             
Intimidate           -2             
Jump                 25             
Listen                3             
Move Silently         6             
Open Lock            n/a            
Perform             n/a             
Repair               -1             
Search               -1             
Spot                  3             
Swim                  2             
Tumble                7             
Use Magic Device    n/a             

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III

Someone C/D if this is good because I'm going to LR right now if it is. I had a halfling variant of this, but the stats/enhancements are gonna be different on a TR WF so I need to make sure I did them right.

Alt stats could be 17 dex 17 con 12 wis, but i figure the slight loss to attack is worth the increased wisdom dc for ToD..

[RavenVisigoth]

ok here is the problem I have. I get tired of games where the DMs add in something that is really really good and then decide to take it away or make it almost worthless. I'd rather have them add something that is nice and not overpowered to begin with and add to it rather than give us something that we make a character built around that fact then have the build be next to worthless when they take it away or make it a waste of time. An idea for the future, add something that is good and add to it to make it balanced. Don't give us something really special and good and then take it away when it is "overpowered"

[SINIBYTE]

ok here is the problem I have. I get tired of games where the DMs add in something that is really really good and then decide to take it away or make it almost worthless. I'd rather have them add something that is nice and not overpowered to begin with and add to it rather than give us something that we make a character built around that fact then have the build be next to worthless when they take it away or make it a waste of time. An idea for the future, add something that is good and add to it to make it balanced. Don't give us something really special and good and then take it away when it is "overpowered"

I've played with a sadistic DM before, we stopped playing with him. He didn't like our tactics so he continually changed things on us. We were smarter than he was (or maybe our dice were just good to us), either way, when he continually tried to destory our party, characters, and progression, we started playing with a new DM - who remembered it was about all of us having fun.