THE U5 Ninja-spy

[wax_on_wax_off]

So, after much agonising, i put forward the hypothesis that the most effective utilisation of the new ninja-spy PrE is the following. Originally i thought multiclassing would be the best use for this PrE but it just isn't true. Goals: dual wielding shortswords, stealth capable, effective combat DCs.

Drow pure dark path monk ninja-spy (LN)
str 14 (+2 tome)
dex 16 (+4 level ups)
con 13 (+1 level up and +2 tome)
int 12 (+1 tome)
wis 14 (+2 tome)
cha 10
A TR character and/or having +3 or +4 tomes to attain 16 base str and con and 13 int to qualify for master elemental enhancements and CE would be ideal for this build. Like all monks this build is MAD.

skills: max concentration and UMD. Split leftover between move silently (15), spot (15), balance (12), tumble (1)
(hide isn't needed as unlimited invisibility, jump is sacrificed. Spot is to see hidden enemies while stealthed)

feats:
1: TWF
1: toughness
2: weapon finesse
3: dodge
6: combat expertise
6: resilience (swap for precision at 16)
6: ninja-spy bonus: shortswords as monk weapons
9: ITWF
12: power attack
12: ninja-spy bonus: improved critical: shortswords
15: GTWF
18: skill focus: UMD (or weapon focus: piercing)

Drow is interchangeable with 32 point halfling however, another halfling monk is boring.
Enhancements are tight. I took 14 starting str and con to qualify for master elemental paths to qualify for Void Strike IV (wind stance IV vorpal hits).

Feats are pretty straight forward, resilience/precision and skill focus: UMD are optional. Personally, I like to be able to go through elite traps all through the game playing the clever monkey game. Precision is for epic content. Additionally, being able to voluntarily lower your damage to boost ki generation is very effective if soloing or the rest of the party is cooperative (ie doesn't kill the enemy your slowing beating to death for Ki).

2 Drow Melee attack I
2 Drow melee damage I
2 Elven Dexterity I (no room to take more)
1 Racial Toughness I
6 Ninja-spy II
10 Grandmaster of storms
18 Master of Stone, Bonfires and Sea
10 Void Strike IV
1 Fists of iron
1 Unbalancing Strike
3 Way of the elegant crane II (no room to take more)
1 Fists of Darkness
4 Touch of Death
2 Static Charge
2 Porous Soul
2 Winter's Touch
2 All-consuming Flame
3 Monk Balance II
3 Monk Jump II
2 Monk Wisdom I (no room to take more)
Monk Improved Recovery I (no room to take)
2 Monk Serenity
1 Monk Concentration I (filler)
80

The racial enhancements will be most useful to have leveling up but the level 20 distribution is not that great. Possible (though difficult) to redistribute enhancements to max dexterity and drow weapon attack II to be able to hit epic content better.

[Syntax42]

Short swords do far less damage than handwraps. They are more useful for people multiclassing into monk.

Resilience and Precision are not needed. Take Stunning Fist instead.

Combat Expertise is taken too early.

Weapon Focus is usually only taken as a prerequisite to something else.

Touch of Death is worth APs. Void Strike is not.

At best, this build is good for being different from other monks. In reality, you are gimping yourself. Make it if you want, as long as you realize how much you are missing by not going unarmed with Touch of Death.

[Aerendil]

Short swords do far less damage than handwraps. They are more useful for people multiclassing into monk.

Resilience and Precision are not needed. Take Stunning Fist instead.

Combat Expertise is taken too early.

Weapon Focus is usually only taken as a prerequisite to something else.

Touch of Death is worth APs. Void Strike is not.

At best, this build is good for being different from other monks. In reality, you are gimping yourself. Make it if you want, as long as you realize how much you are missing by not going unarmed with Touch of Death.

Yep, agreed.
Handwraps with ToD pre-U5 > all.

But now with GTWF granting an 80% chance for a double-ToD? Umm, yeah.
Handwraps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other weapon for monks.

Unless there is another weapon out there that can do 1000 dmg every 15 sec or so I'm not aware of?

[elyssaria]

Yep, agreed.
Handwraps with ToD pre-U5 > all.

But now with GTWF granting an 80% chance for a double-ToD? Umm, yeah.
Handwraps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other weapon for monks.

Unless there is another weapon out there that can do 1000 dmg every 30 sec or so I'm not aware of?

Hmmm is the timer of ToD increased to 30 sec now? I thought it was a 15 sec timer last time i had it (which was a few months ago )

[Aerendil]

Hmmm is the timer of ToD increased to 30 sec now? I thought it was a 15 sec timer last time i had it (which was a few months ago )

Woops, you're right. Had the Smite timer in mind.
Corrected above.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Short swords do far less damage than handwraps. They are more useful for people multiclassing into monk.

Resilience and Precision are not needed. Take Stunning Fist instead.

Combat Expertise is taken too early.

Weapon Focus is usually only taken as a prerequisite to something else.

Touch of Death is worth APs. Void Strike is not.

At best, this build is good for being different from other monks. In reality, you are gimping yourself. Make it if you want, as long as you realize how much you are missing by not going unarmed with Touch of Death.

Originally I made the build with improved critical: bludgeoning but removed it in favour of focusing on shortswords.

I wouldn't mind some discourse on handwraps vs shortswords. Sure, 2d10 damage vs 1d6 damage seems pretty simple. On the side of the shortswords though you have racial enhancements, 17-20 threat range and many powerful unique and crafted shortswords to choose from (sunblade, gs etc.). Elegant crane philosophy, fists of iron and trembling earth become exponentially more useful. Finally, randomly generated shortswords with affects like banishing and smiting are hugely more useful on shortswords than what they are on wraps.

It would be quite easy to fit in improved critical: bludgeoning and stunning fist into the build if that was desired. It should be noted that many dark finishers will have similar DCs (assuming +10 weighted) but can be used with favourite shortswords.

Void Strike IV is new but free vorpal seems worth APs to me. Especially as feedback ive had suggests that it works on epic mobs.

Combat Expertise and Power attack can be swapped but there isn't many places either of them can be moved to otherwise. CE or PA from level 6-11 is a matter of taste.

I disagree with the statement that shortswords are best for multiclassers, I thought the same too but considering what is required to get it (6 levels, dark path monk, dodge feat) I no longer think the investment is worth it for many, if any builds. Much better to go to 12 monk to pick up free IC:shortswords and +2d6 sneak in which case might as well go the whole hog.

Longswords are a much better choice for a splashed monk if you can afford the feats imo.

I've don't have access to epic content, I'm saving for demon sands right now, but everything I've heard suggests that epic content has ridiculous high AC and every little bit of attack boosting will help there. To this end I added the option for WF:P and precision.

I've just taken Resilience on my light path monk and on hard difficulty in water stance with resilience activated I still failed my save on a 2 going for the chest in delera's tomb chain with the acid traps that can't be disarmed at level 6, therefore I'm happy that I have it.

It got even better later playing the clever monkey game in the traps in Gwylan's Stand, I might try to solo that one day and see if I can let "misadventure" get all the kills.

I haven't had a chance to go duo again with my questing buddy to test out resilience as a Ki/HP generating strategy but it'll happen.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Is Touch of Death wraps only? Looking in the description it doesn't mention that. Should the compedium and ddowiki be updated to reflect that it only works with wraps?

[ellamonster]

Is Touch of Death wraps only? Looking in the description it doesn't mention that. Should the compedium and ddowiki be updated to reflect that it only works with wraps?

Yes, unfortunately the description doesn't say that, you have to learn by doing on this one.

[ellamonster]

Since this is a ninja spy post, I will post my love for the ninja! Switched my monk (level 19) to ninja spy yesterday and ran a shroud. The 25% incorporeal Shadow Fade combined with monk evasion makes you SOO surviveable. At one point there was a lag wipe where half of the party died in part 4, I was still at 3/4 hp. It's just another skill that makes me giggle, like when my FvS casts implosion!

[Aerendil]

Is Touch of Death wraps only? Looking in the description it doesn't mention that. Should the compedium and ddowiki be updated to reflect that it only works with wraps?

Yep, pretty much all of the "special" attacks (i.e. anything but the ki strikes) are wraps only.
That includes Touch of Death, Stunning Fist, and Quivering Palm.

No idea if that'll ever change, but for the moment it severely unbalances the weapon choices making handwraps pretty much the ideal weapon choice.
Shortswords may have their place. As you mentioned, if you happen to have twin min2 shortswords, that may be a viable boss beater combo instead of devout's - but even then, I think devout's would do more damage (there was a dps test done a month or so ago showing handwraps outparsed pretty much any min2 combo for monks, including shortswords/longswords). Regarding banishers and the like - it's still probably easier to just ToD the enemy, or stun and then crit them to death.

This is why people are saying that the shortswords/longswords ideas are better suited for Monk splashes rather than pure Monks.

Trust me, when you come across a big nasty monster and you walk up and do a double-ToD strike and practically 1-shot it, you'll be thinking "why am I using shortswords?!?".

[wax_on_wax_off]

So this is the build i rolled up today. I brought in the versatility to choose between fists or shortswords (it only cost 1 feat) and got rid of void strike IV. I am going to try running without stunning fist but i might take it at 6 instead of one of the stances if i feel like im lacking without it. I do hope that there is enough offensive dark finishers that stunning fist won't be needed. Enhancements aren't set in stone but losing void strike IV really freed them up. I void strike I (and make take void strike II) to make use of the new void finisher for charming.

Drow pure dark path monk ninja-spy (LN)
str 12 (+1 tome)
dex 16 (+level ups)
con 12
int 12 (+1 tome)
wis 16
cha 10

Like all monks this build is MAD.

skills: max concentration, UMD, jump. Leftover between move silently (15), spot (15), balance (12), tumble (1)
(hide isn't needed as unlimited invisibility, jump is sacrificed. Spot is to see hidden enemies while stealthed)

feats:
1: TWF
1: toughness
2: weapon finesse
3: dodge
6: combat expertise
6: power attack
6: ninja-spy bonus: shortswords as monk weapons
9: ITWF
12: improved critical: bludgeoning
12: ninja-spy bonus: improved critical: shortswords
15: GTWF
18:

Enhancements
6 Drow Melee attack II
6 Drow melee damage II
6 Elven Dexterity II
3 Racial Toughness II
6 Ninja-spy II
10 Grandmaster of storms
6 Master of sea
1 Void Strike I
1 Fists of iron
1 Unbalancing Strike
3 Way of the elegant crane II
1 Fists of Darkness
4 Touch of Death
2 Static Charge
2 Porous Soul
2 Winter's Touch
2 All-consuming Flame
3 Monk Balance II
3 Monk Jump II
6 Monk Wisdom II
2 Monk Improved Recovery I
2 Monk Serenity
78

[wax_on_wax_off]

So, this toon is level 8 now, almost 9. I managed to pick up a cheap sunblade and got another one for festivult so he is running around with 2 of those now and he is having a great time. I also grabbed a +1 shortsword of vertigo +8 and using that with unbalancing strike seems a good strategy.
At the moment, the 2d10+8 damage vs undead from the sunblades is certainly superior to anything his wraps can dish out. I also use them against LE foes as he mostly uses PG of TL wraps if he uses wraps at all.
I miss stunning fist but I'm not sure what feat i would swap if i wanted it, i love CE and PA and use them both very often.