Looks like small guilds are in trouble

[Grendyll]

Forget guild leveling look at the store bought reward mechanisms for guilds. So, I can buy +2 to all stats from the DDO store for my guild. Let's say I can reasonably afford to do this for 1 hour per week. If I am in a guild of 7 people with similar ability to afford stuff from the DDO store, I could have +2 to all stats for 1 hour per day. If I am in a guild with 168 other people, I could have the buff constantly. R.I.P. small guilds.

I thought the DDO store was going to be limited with regard to the magnitude of impact on in-game character power, but more and more, the power creep from DDO store bought advantages makes me sad. I fear that we will indeed soon have a game tuned to the point where not spending money in the in-game store = being horribly underpowered and progressing at a snail's pace. I would like to add my voice to those saying that the latest update is a step in the wrong direction for the game. (Never mind the other nerfs...)

[JohnRove]

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but aren't those same items available through in-game means, just at a higher guild level?

[Qindark]

I think the small guilds will be fine. In fact, they are probably least affected by change, since I bet most of them are there for fun. Nerf or no Nerf, I'll still get on to join my guildies in running through the game.

[Theodorus1]

Qindark:

But, you won't be UBER...

/sarc off

This is a PvE game; ultimate superiority doesn't really matter all that much. If you can finish a quest on level with a group of people you actually like and enjoy gaming with, what else do you really need?

[Zenako]

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but aren't those same items available through in-game means, just at a higher guild level?

Most of the buffs in the Guild Airships are on TOP of your other normal buffs, so they are a marked increase in character power for those that have them over those who do not.

Also the guild buffs LAST for 1 hour, but the shrine or vendor you get them from on your Airship lasts for some extended period of time measured in days, each time you renew those features. You merely need to return to the airship to renew the buffs between quests, until the contract for that service expires (most are something like a full week of service).

[Qindark]

Qindark:

But, you won't be UBER...

/sarc off

This is a PvE game; ultimate superiority doesn't really matter all that much. If you can finish a quest on level with a group of people you actually like and enjoy gaming with, what else do you really need?

Maybe its because I'm not uber now, that I won't miss it
*grin*

[aax]

i normally dont post much in all my years playing til recent.

i 100% agree with you.

people who have been here for years want to be heard.

[gserlenga]

Personally I could care less about the guild nonsense, and if it increases the egoism and rude attitudes of uber players more as a result, I could care even less than less.

[moops]

Why?
Our small guild already beats all current content fast and with no resources, we don't need in of that Airship Cr@p.

[systemstate]

Personally I could care less about the guild nonsense, and if it increases the egoism and rude attitudes of uber players more as a result, I could care even less than less.

Well said. /signed

[KoboldKiller]

I also don't get why small guilds will suffer?

It is what it is.

The fact is most small guilds are that way for a reason. They want small groups of people they enjoy playing with and could care less about being a high reputation guild or being raid heavy.

This will do nothing to those guilds.

[systemstate]

Why?
Our small guild already beats all current content fast and with no resources, we don't need in of that Airship Cr@p.

Unless... "New in Update 6- TWO fabulous level 17-20 raids and several new level 17-20 quests! Access them now from your upgraded guild airship!".


That would suck.

EDIT: I still don't care much about airships or guild renown.

[SquelchHU]

Unless... "New in Update 6- TWO fabulous level 17-20 raids and several new level 17-20 quests! Access them now from your upgraded guild airship!".


That would suck.

EDIT: I still don't care much about airships or guild renown.

Naw, new endgame content is Nerfdate 10. It will have a boss with 5k HP (not a typo) but be regarded as impossible due to lack of DPS.

[Zenako]

I also don't get why small guilds will suffer?

It is what it is.

The fact is most small guilds are that way for a reason. They want small groups of people they enjoy playing with and could care less about being a high reputation guild or being raid heavy.

This will do nothing to those guilds.

But KK, you see the old guild paradigm is now obsolete. Prior to update 5, all a Guild was, was an association of like minded players who enjoyed running with each other. THere were no tangible game benefits from being in a guild other than access to players of that guild. Post Update 5, being a member of guild still gives all the aforementioned benefits, PLUS access to whatever guild perks that guild has achieved or funded.

Where as before all that mattered was your Guild NAME for getting into a quest or raid many times. Now it will more likely be your GUILD NAME AND NUMBER that can be attached to the application. People from High ranking guilds will be able to contribute more spells, more dps, more anything to a quest or raid than those from a low ranking guild can do. It will be a discriminator, and a blunt one at that many time.

[Grendyll]

This isn't exactly about casual versus elite. It is about small guilds versus large guilds. Elite players are just as likely to be in a small guild as casual players. What I am concerned about is the reward mechanism that 1) strongly favors large guilds (guilds with large rosters of active players), and 2) provides rewards that have a significant impact on character performance and power. The devs said that there would be a bonus for small guilds to keep up in the guild-leveling process through renown acquisition (although the small guild bonus is currently bugged/disabled, it will supposedly be fixed soon(tm)). But, the reward mechanisms where 1 player buys something for the whole guild to use, clearly favors large guilds again swinging things back in their favor. It would not matter if the rewards were minor/cosmetic things, but they are not, they are the core bonuses that every character desires and benefits from greatly.

I oppose this for two reasons. 1) I don't like the creep of powerful stuff coming from the DDO store as a general rule and 2) I don't like that it favors large guilds over small guilds.

I wish I could have the cavalier attitude and believe that I can just go on playing the game as always. But, in my long experience with MMOs, this is one more step down a slippery slope. One day you will wake up and realize that the game has had its core challenges tuned with all of the DDO store bought large guild bonuses in mind and factored in to the balance equations. And the gameplay we all love will suffer for it. Probably there will be no one defining change or moment, but it will be the slow death, as the players that love what the game is today (and has been in the past) are replaced by players that don't mind whipping out the credit card to buy quest completions. Maybe Turbine wants to replace the current player-base with a new player-base that will fork over cash to them at every play session, I hope there are enough of them. However, I will not be among them, that is all I was trying to say. Perhaps it is not too late to change course.

[KoboldKiller]

But KK, you see the old guild paradigm is now obsolete. Prior to update 5, all a Guild was, was an association of like minded players who enjoyed running with each other. THere were no tangible game benefits from being in a guild other than access to players of that guild. Post Update 5, being a member of guild still gives all the aforementioned benefits, PLUS access to whatever guild perks that guild has achieved or funded.

Where as before all that mattered was your Guild NAME for getting into a quest or raid many times. Now it will more likely be your GUILD NAME AND NUMBER that can be attached to the application. People from High ranking guilds will be able to contribute more spells, more dps, more anything to a quest or raid than those from a low ranking guild can do. It will be a discriminator, and a blunt one at that many time.

Valid points.

[Grendyll]

But KK, you see the old guild paradigm is now obsolete. Prior to update 5, all a Guild was, was an association of like minded players who enjoyed running with each other. THere were no tangible game benefits from being in a guild other than access to players of that guild. Post Update 5, being a member of guild still gives all the aforementioned benefits, PLUS access to whatever guild perks that guild has achieved or funded.

Where as before all that mattered was your Guild NAME for getting into a quest or raid many times. Now it will more likely be your GUILD NAME AND NUMBER that can be attached to the application. People from High ranking guilds will be able to contribute more spells, more dps, more anything to a quest or raid than those from a low ranking guild can do. It will be a discriminator, and a blunt one at that many time.

QFT.

You can say that it will not matter to you all you want. But, the reality is that the game balanced is tuned with average/peak character capabilities in mind. And those capabilities are now directly tied to the benefits that your guild is granting to you through the airship. It will be a new discriminating factor. Tied to the magnitude of the buffs available. I thought they would be minor. Now it is looking like they will be much larger than I had anticipated. And if they continue to grow...they will dramatically alter the social climate of the game and the server communities, and I am feeling it will be for the worse not the better.

[Zenako]

QFT.

You can say that it will not matter to you all you want. But, the reality is that the game balanced is tuned with average/peak character capabilities in mind. And those capabilities are now directly tied to the benefits that your guild is granting to you through the airship. It will be a new discriminating factor. Tied to the magnitude of the buffs available. I thought they would be minor. Now it is looking like they will be much larger than I had anticipated. And if they continue to grow...they will dramatically alter the social climate of the game and the server communities, and I am feeling it will be for the worse not the better.

That was almost the universal opinion presented by many in the threads on the Lammania forums on this issue. They are overstepping the game design and reaching beyond where they needed to, to merely incentivize guilds and guild features.

[IronClan]

Two things people don't yet realize who weren't reading the Lamania forums: Minimum Guild level will spawn on loot now with augment slots based on guild level. If you pull a +5 holy silver pg Khopesh (insert random loot that matters to you) with a minimum guild level of 70 you are A) SOL B) looking to join a guild with a level above 70 even though you don't care for guilds/large guilds or C) leaving your small guild for a guild that can achieve and maintain a level above 70.

The next thing is the selection of overpowered buffs will mostly be the domain of larger guilds that have the largest airships that can fit all the buffs on board. These include (and they stack with other buffs): +2 to all stats, +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 all saves, +1 Spell DC, +10% healing Amp +5% XP 30 fire resist 30 cold resist, 30 electric, sonic, acid and etc....

Squelch I see you've commented in this thread maybe I can enlist your aid in an experiment (or maybe not but whatever someone else can chime in):

Would you say it's a safe assumption that you would call a Character a gimp if he wanted to join your LFM and you didn't know him and he had these disadvantages: (compared to everyone else in your party) -2 to all stats, -2 to hit, -2 damage, -2 all saves, -1 Spell DC, -30 fire resist -30 cold resist, -30 electric -30 acid and MINUS some other stuff etc... (again relative to all the other characters in your party ).

[dragons1ayer74]

Status and convenience items are one thing but really ML guild weapon restrictions plus many in-game benefits just seems like too much. My play-time is casual my game-style is not and I love making and leveling characters now after all this time in the game I suddenly feel it will be a need to join a large and active guild.