Larry Longsword. (U5: Temp II/ Kensai I/ Monk 2)

[DrNuegebauer]

I was curious about a build that might possibly work in the use of the 'Whirling Steel' monk feat. I figured this was as good as I could come up - any feedback on enhancing it - or whether to scrap it altogether - would be appreciated!

Lawful Good Elf (32 pt)
12 Ranger/ 6 Fighter/ 2 Monk

Stats:

S: 16 (+5levels/ +2 tome/ +6 item/ +2 fighter/ +3 ex) = 34 (add rams for 36)
D: 16 (+2 elf/ +2 ranger/ +2 tome/ +6 item) = 28
C: 12 (+2 tome/ +6 item/ +2 ex) = 22
I: 10 (+2 tome) = 12
W: 14 (+1 monk/ +2 tome/ +6 item/ +3 ex) = 26
C: 10 (+2 tome/ +6 item as req) = 18

Feats:
You can fiddle these around as you please, but the essentials are:
WF: Slash/ Whirling Steel/ Toughness/ Power Attack/ IC: Slash/ Dodge/ Mobility/ Spring Attack/ WS: Slashing
That's 9 feats - the build should have 13 altogether - I'd recommend throwing in an extra couple of toughness selections to make up for the gimped con.

HP: 20 (base) + 172 (levels) + 120 (con) + 66 (3x toughness feats) + 40 (toughness enhancements) + 45 (shroud helm) + 30 (GFL) + 10 (Argo) = 503 unbuffed.

Should be able to a decent AC going with the toon.

Damage - crits won't be anything to write home about, but the 'base' damage should be pretty good per hit? +2 elven/ +2 Kensai is a nice start.

In terms of attacks, Temp II gives 100% main and offhand; Kensai boosts the damage (and accuracy a little) and monk in wind stance adds 2.5% double strike (so half of Tempest 3).

It's not the most fleshed out build you'll ever read - but feedback? Is it worth trying to use the Whirling Steel line at all?

[Arlathen]

It's not the most fleshed out build you'll ever read - but feedback? Is it worth trying to use the Whirling Steel line at all?

I think its going to be a very effective choice, depending on how well the builds are put together. Your own Ranger 12 based version for 100% offhand is going to be very popular too, especially since that means all feats upto GTWF/Evasion/ImpPrecise are all free.

For the Whirling Steel feat, I am predicting lots of Monk 6 based builds in the future, - 10% Enhancement Speed all the time, and 5% Double strike chance. The other stances at tier 2 have a lot of utility as well.

I'm currently building a Fighter 12 / Monk 7 / Rogue 1 (Asuryen - Lvl 8) and he's a lot of fun to play with just a Quarterstaff at these early levels. As soon as Update 5 hits, I have a range of Longswords and TWF ready to go.

The other build that could be a lot of fun is Paladin 14/Monk 6 as well. With Zeal and Wind stance 2, thats a 15% Double strike chance.

[unbongwah]

My gut instinct is that Wind I + TWF longswords will still be lower DPS than TWF khopeshs on the Exploiter, Monster, etc. Even with the nerf to Tempest I, it's just really hard to overcome that x2 vs x3 crit multiplier difference. A number of folks, including me, have worked on builds which take advantage of monk self-healing thru Fists of Light + centered w/longswords + healing amp + Devotion for pretty spiffy free healing. Here's the Solar Phoenix (paladin 12 / monk 7 / rogue 1); here's my own variant the Tempest Phoenix (ranger 12 / monk 7 / rogue 1). The Solar will have higher saves and better healing amp; my build will have higher AC and a lot more skill points (I made it a trapmonkey, but one could spend those points elsewhere). I've also seen a couple of monk 6 / paladin 14 builds like Arlathen mentions: Wind II + Zeal sounds pretty spiffy.

[Aerendil]

12 used to be a silly stopping for Ranger - now it's not bad at all. Gives you 100%/100% with your TWFing, plus all the feats for free.

My gut instinct is that your combination would work just fine, although you do miss out on tier III and any extra benefits ToD ring sets bring.
/6 Fighter will grant a bit of extra dps, but then so would /6 Monk or even /6 Rogue (Assassin). So you certainly have plenty of options if you want to change your mind.

But it sounds like you have the basics down. 12 levels of Ranger; at least 1 monk level (for WSS); and longswords. Should be fine.
As mentioned above, khopeshes will probably still win out, but hey - sometimes a build is more for fun than for max dps.

Stats I would maybe tinker down to Wis 12, Str 15, and up Con to 14, but that's not a big deal. Could even lower Str to 14 and up Int to 12 if you wanted Combat Expertise at some point.
Also consider OTWF - even if you're not going to Tempest III, it's nice to alleviate that -2/-2 penalty for dual-wielding large weapons.

One last thought for the day is to consider 12 Ranger / 6 Monk / 2 whatever as mentioned above, or even going 18 Ranger / 1 Monk / 1 Fighter or Rogue - you'd still have a good number of feats; fighter/rogue haste clicky, possibly UMD and trapskills if /Rogue, and 100%/100% TWF with 7.5% double attack rate (5 from Tempest III, 2.5% from wind I) and 7.5% self-haste for those solo occasions. Not a bad deal IMO. And you can use the Tempest III ToD set for a nice +3 to hit, and 1d4 slashing damage.

[grodon9999]

My gut instinct is that Wind I + TWF longswords will still be lower DPS than TWF khopeshs on the Exploiter, Monster, etc. Even with the nerf to Tempest I, it's just really hard to overcome that x2 vs x3 crit multiplier difference. A number of folks, including me, have worked on builds which take advantage of monk self-healing thru Fists of Light + centered w/longswords + healing amp + Devotion for pretty spiffy free healing. Here's the Solar Phoenix (paladin 12 / monk 7 / rogue 1); here's my own variant the Tempest Phoenix (ranger 12 / monk 7 / rogue 1). The Solar will have higher saves and better healing amp; my build will have higher AC and a lot more skill points (I made it a trapmonkey, but one could spend those points elsewhere). I've also seen a couple of monk 6 / paladin 14 builds like Arlathen mentions: Wind II + Zeal sounds pretty spiffy.

How will the swing speed work on a Tempest II+ Wind?

Tempest III will give you about 110/105 attacks/minute on average while hasted. if you use the same attack numbers, lower the FE bonus for fewer ranger levels, add in the +2 for Elfness, and go with 30 STR, . .. .

345 DPS for the Tempest III Khopesh user

292 DPS for the Longswords

Mineral II weapons. Raid buffs include bard song and prayer, power-attack is on. A bloostone is included as well. Tharnes goggles for both, Exploiter also gets rogue sneak attack. 0% fort, no acid immunity.

That's assuming the Tempest III and the Tempest II/Wind has the same number of swings a minute.

EDIT: Sneak attack adjustment, didn't see the lack of rogue levels.

[DrNuegebauer]

How will the swing speed work on a Tempest II+ Wind?

Tempest III will give you about 110/105 attacks/minute on average while hasted. if you use the same attack numbers, lower the FE bonus for fewer ranger levels, add in the +2 for Elfness, and go with 30 STR, . .. .

345 DPS for the Tempest III Khopesh user

292 DPS for the Longswords

Mineral II weapons. Raid buffs include bard song and prayer, power-attack is on. A bloostone is included as well. Tharnes goggles for both, Exploiter also gets rogue sneak attack. 0% fort, no acid immunity.

That's assuming the Tempest III and the Tempest II/Wind has the same number of swings a minute.

EDIT: Sneak attack adjustment, didn't see the lack of rogue levels.

Sorry - dumb question - but does that include the Kensai I sig weapon and WS feat?

the difference in attack rate would be (Temp III + air I) 105/100/7.5% [main/off/double] vs 100/100/2.5%.

So the pure swing speed is down - however the brute damage per swing is up.

All other things being equal, the advantage of TempII/ Kensai I/ air I is the damage: +2 elven; +2 weapon spec; +1 kensai --> and then it's +2 per hit (or +4 if you take the Elven line?) and +2 extra on crit confirmation and crit damage. In theory it should also be +1 to hit and damage for the extra +2 str potential?
I would think this comes into its own against higher fort targets?

Here is a loose (and possibly inaccurate) calculation vs 0 fort (which favours the exploiter build)

But since all other factors can be considered equal, here are some numbers for a GS khopesh vs a GS longsword (remembering that the non-GS numbers are well in favor of the LS)

Khopesh (1d10 = 5.5 'base damage' + 1d6sneak = 3.5 'extra' ==> 9 damage)

1 = miss
2-16 = 15x9 = 135
17-20 = 9x4x3 = 108

243.

Longsword (1d10 = 5.5 'base' +2 (elf) +2 (ws feat) +1 (kensai) +1 (str) ==> 11.5 damage)

1=miss
2-16 = 15x11.5 = 172.5
17-20 = 13.5x4x2 = 108 (extra +2 for crit damage from kensai weapon)

300.5

So against 0% fort it's in favour of the longsword (of course things like favoured enemies etc come into play with extra damage for the Temp III) in terms of damage per swing. And as fort increases, the scales tip towards Larry Longsword even further? But remember that the Temp III has 5% more swings and 5% more chance of a 'double strike'.
We also need to remember Larry has +4 to +6 'to hit' (+1 WF feat; +1 kensai weap; +1 str; +1BAB vs exploiter - then the potential for +2 elven enhancements) - not sure how much of a factor that really is though...

I don't really know how to calculate the swing speed difference in raw numbers. But adding 5% of regular swings and then 5% double damage would yield:

Temp III (exploiter) = 279.5
Larry Longsword = 300.5

Again, that is simply rudimentary calculations. My point is not to suggest that this build will be UBERRRZ - but I think it's not gimped.

Correct me if I'm way wrong here - but I think this thing might be worth building? That's the goal after all, to actually build something that takes advantage of the 'new stuff' in U5 (ie monk Longswords)

And I think it needs the Kensai 1 level to get the damage to an 'acceptable level' - if not doing that, then I'd probably pursue the shortsword monk route (Temp II/ Ninja I) who uses Ki for self healing (as described above).

[grodon9999]

Sorry - dumb question - but does that include the Kensai I GWS and sig weapon?

Nope, throw me those numbers and I'll update. You by any chance know the approx number of attacks/minute?

[DrNuegebauer]

Nope, throw me those numbers and I'll update. You by any chance know the approx number of attacks/minute?

Sorry mate - couldn't say.

But it compares to the U5 exploiter in the above mentioned ways:

Unhasted:
Exploiter: 105/100/7.5 (main/off/double)
Larry: 100/100/2.5 (main/off/double)

BAB is 19 vs 18 - so that's not a difference maker. Those numbers above increase proportionally for haste.

The Kensai I splash gives Larry (above the exploiter) +2 damage (weapon spec); +1 damage (signature weapon); +2 crit confirmation + damage; +1 damage (fighter strength enhancements)

So +4 damage and an extra +2 on the crits.
Which becomes +6 damage with the elven longsword line.

[grodon9999]

It's probably close enough that the utility of the build will make up for any DPS difference.

[askrj1]

Looks decent, but just a few things before the number crunching.

I do not see why the build would need cha, since you made no mention on skills and none of the classes in the build have any use of it. Same for int.

Unless you are absolutely hot on the AC part dropping dex down to 13/14 for dodge would be fair enough, and 12 wis + items would be more than enough for casting what little you have. Spare points go to con, as any melee build would have it.

As for whether whirling steel is worthwhile, in my opinion:
Longswords are not finesse weapons, so unless you are getting your twf feats from ranger that is reasonable investment in dex that takes away from either your con or str, which will impact your durability or to-hit/damage. If you took ranger till you had tempest 2 that takes away the benefits of evasion with mnk2, and tier 1 stance bonuses are not decisive compared to other benefits which you could have by taking 2 levels of another class. If you just want an AC build you do not need centered weapons to keep the wis/centered bonus either.

All in all the feat would be fun to try, but I do not see any real benefits of using it.

[DrNuegebauer]

Looks decent, but just a few things before the number crunching.

I do not see why the build would need cha, since you made no mention on skills and none of the classes in the build have any use of it. Same for int.

Unless you are absolutely hot on the AC part dropping dex down to 13/14 for dodge would be fair enough, and 12 wis + items would be more than enough for casting what little you have. Spare points go to con, as any melee build would have it.

As for whether whirling steel is worthwhile, in my opinion:
Longswords are not finesse weapons, so unless you are getting your twf feats from ranger that is reasonable investment in dex that takes away from either your con or str, which will impact your durability or to-hit/damage. If you took ranger till you had tempest 2 that takes away the benefits of evasion with mnk2, and tier 1 stance bonuses are not decisive compared to other benefits which you could have by taking 2 levels of another class. If you just want an AC build you do not need centered weapons to keep the wis/centered bonus either.

All in all the feat would be fun to try, but I do not see any real benefits of using it.

It's a flavour build for sure.

On the dex: it's for AC. The build could hit 70AC with the right equipment. Even with very basic equipment it would easily be up past 50.

As for monk 2 - the purpose of it is an extra feat. Monk 1 is required for wind stance, but what is ranger 13 or fighter 7 doing? Might as well take an extra feat (which, you'll note, was used on toughness). And the +1 AC.

Having plenty of feats for toughness yields well over 500hp. That's enough for a build which can get close to 70 AC.

Probably ditch the int though - push the con to 13 and look at a +3 tome or something. Again, the centered weapons are not REQUIRED, but the idea is to see if there's a build that can use the longswords in stance and still be halfway decent.

It's an idea that works with the Kensai for bonus damage.

[Arlathen]

Anyone else counting down the days to Update 5 with one of these types of builds??

Asuryen is just itching to wield a pair of Longswords while in stance...... talk about biting at the bit. *Looks at already taken TWF Elf Enhancement and WF: Slash and WS: Slash* *whimper* Come on **** you Turbirrne!

Things I've done to pass the time...

* Bought the shared bank on my premium account...

* Stuck a pair of Vorpal Longswords in it.. (interestingly one of Deception and one of Backstabbing)

* Built a pair of Greensteel Longsword blanks and have the small and med Ing's ready for tier 1 and 2 (Pos/Earth for Mineral 2, naturally).

* Got my hands on one Sirocco - Have grinded Elite WizKing Solo 8 times so far in an effort to get another Sirocco, no sucess...

* Run Elite Offering of Blood solo for Spectral gloves 4 times, no cigar *sigh* ...

* Ran Elite Desecrated Temple of Vol 6 times for Boots of the Innocent, loot gods have abandoned me for my extreme twinking as no luck here either!!!...

* Ran the new Sentinels pack, and now have an unlocked pair of the chitin Bracers.

* Researched Healing Amplification. Can't reach the 400% of the Solar Pheonix, but could get around 230% ish...

* Considered re-rolling as Ranger/Monk/Rogue. Nahh. I like my Fighter 12 concept.

So, keeping busy....

On a seperate note, I do love Monk speed. That extra 10% with Exp. retreat or haste means I'm first to a fight. I can see why Barbarians love there movement boost so much

[Raiderone]

I was thinking a similar build but sticking with 2 levels of Rogue instead of Monk.
More for DD,OL,UMD, Search and Spot.

But going with Rapiers. TWF Elf 12 Ranger/6 Fighter/2 Rogue.

Was going TWF Elf 12 Fighter/ 6 Ranger/ 2 Rogue but I think U5 hurts that build..

[Aerendil]

I was thinking a similar build but sticking with 2 levels of Rogue instead of Monk.
More for DD,OL,UMD, Search and Spot.

But going with Rapiers. TWF Elf 12 Ranger/6 Fighter/2 Rogue.

Was going TWF Elf 12 Fighter/ 6 Ranger/ 2 Rogue but I think U5 hurts that build..

Keep in mind for whirling steel strike you *need* at least 1 monk level.
In which case you'll want to consider either /1 Monk (to unlock WSS, wis to AC, stances, +1 feat), /2 Monk (an extra feat, animal paths, Evasion if you need it), or /6 Monk (another feat, tier II stances).

[Nyvn]

Here is a loose (and possibly inaccurate) calculation vs 0 fort (which favours the exploiter build)

But since all other factors can be considered equal, here are some numbers for a GS khopesh vs a GS longsword (remembering that the non-GS numbers are well in favor of the LS)

Khopesh (1d10 = 5.5 'base damage' + 1d6sneak = 3.5 'extra' ==> 9 damage)

1 = miss
2-16 = 15x9 = 135
17-20 = 9x4x3 = 108

243.

Longsword (1d10 = 5.5 'base' +2 (elf) +2 (ws feat) +1 (kensai) +1 (str) ==> 11.5 damage)

1=miss
2-16 = 15x11.5 = 172.5
17-20 = 13.5x4x2 = 108 (extra +2 for crit damage from kensai weapon)

300.5

Very inaccurate, you're not including things like strength or favored enemy. In fact you don't have any extra damage calculated for the Khopesh. Added damage and the 3x crit is where the Khopesh shines. Anything that raises the + damage that gets added to your damage roll really makes the khopesh outclass other weapons. The bonus for WSS builds is that they get to use monk stances; so they'll be getting more double strikes.

[Aerendil]

The bonus for WSS builds is that they get to use monk stances; so they'll be getting more double strikes.

Depending on the build, they might, yes.
/1 or 2 Monk splash combined with Tempest III = you get an extra +2.5% double-strike rate, and a self 7.5% haste for those soloing times. Whether a 2.5% increase is noticeable is a good question, however...


/6 Monk would result in the same double-strike as Tempest III (5%), but offer better self-haste (10% like the good old days of Tempest ). And a few extra feats, which is always nice. But then you give up Tempest III (-1 AC, no bonus from the ToD ring set, etc.).
*edit* - actually, just realized you'd gain +1 AC. You'd only have 3 shield AC from tempest II, but gain +2 centered AC from /6 Monk. Not a big deal either way, though.

Some tough choices.
Personally, I think /1 or 2 Monk is the splash to go for if you want WSS.

[Diyon]

* Researched Healing Amplification. Can't reach the 400% of the Solar Pheonix, but could get around 230% ish...

That looks like you calculated its healing amp additively, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not how healing amp stacks, is it?

*And yes I'm sitting around waiting on update 5, for a Solar Phoenix build char.

[Aerendil]

That looks like you calculated its healing amp additively, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not how healing amp stacks, is it?

*And yes I'm sitting around waiting on update 5, for a Solar Phoenix build char.

Yes, I believe it's multiplied - but in a weird sort of way.
As per the DDO Wiki entry, you multiply each % healing amplificiation, with the base being 1.00.

So, for example, Ranger Devotion IV (+40% healing) + Monk Improved Recovery I (+10%) + Human Improved Recovery III (+30%) would be:
1 X 1.4 (Ranger Dev IV) X 1.1 (Monk I) X 1.3 (Human) = 2.002, or a 200.2% modifier (i.e. you now get double out of all heals).

For this particular build, there are a few easy ways to up your healing amplification:
- Ranger Devotion IV (40%)
- Monk Imp. Recovery I (10%)
- Superior Devotion item (50%)
- Greensteel weapon (20 to 30%, depending on tier)
- Jidz-tet'ka + fire stance (25%)
That alone is 3.75375 modifier, which is pretty impressive.

I think a maximized Cure Serious is what, 39 hp? So that would be increased to about 145ish a pop. Not too bad.
Of course, there's always the other option - increase UMD, and just Heal-scroll yourself when you need to

[Arlathen]

That looks like you calculated its healing amp additively, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not how healing amp stacks, is it?

*And yes I'm sitting around waiting on update 5, for a Solar Phoenix build char.

I worked out my own Self healing as this:

1 (Base) * 1.2 (Monk Imp Rec. 2) * 1.5 (SupDev 1) * 1.25 (Bracers in Fire stance) = 2.25 or 225%.

With an Item enhancement of 10% and 20%, I could push it to around to 2.97 or 297%, but this just misses out on pushing FoL upto 3/6 per hit, so I don't think the gain here is worth it.

I lose alot on my build, as I'm not Human, don't have Paladin or Ranger, and not really willing to sacrifice a Mineral 2 longsword for a +30% Healing Amp item. If I could find a way to push that healing amp up another 10% to push it over 300% then I would go for that, otherwise 225% is enough for me.