My attempt at THF with traps and UMD. Please help!

[kthulhu99]

So I'm relatively new to the game and I've decided I wanted to break from the standard TWF builds I seen a lot of. Next I wanted to have good Search, DD, and UMD skills. Lastly I didn't want to be squishy (maybe even off tank). I haven't seen any build like this out there (probably a bad sign) so I went a head and attempted it myself. Please note I am new and this could be an absolute mess:

12 Fighter/6 Rogue/2 Barb
Race: WF
Alignment: True Neutral

Stats:
18 Str + 6 item + 5 level + 2 tome + 2 enhance = 33
12 Dex + 6 item + 2 tome = 20
16 Con + 6 item + 2 tome + 2 enhance = 26
12 Int + 6 item +2 tome = 20
6 Wis + 6 item + 2 tome = 14
8 Cha + 6 item + 2 tome =16

Feats:

* 1. Adamantite Body
* 2. Two handed Fighting
* 3. Power Attack
* 3. Weapon Focus: Slashing
* 6. Toughness
* 9. Combat Expertise
* 9. Imp. THF
* 11. WS: Slashing
* 12. Cleave
* 13. GTWF
* 15. GWF: Slashing
* 15. Imp. Trip
* 18. Great Cleave
* 18. Toughness
* 20. GWS: Slashing

Level order:
1 Rogue
2 Fighter
3-4 Barb
5-8 Rogue
9-15 Fighter
16 Rogue (skill catch up + Mechanic)
17-20 Fighter

Armor Class:

Honestly I don't even know how to begin to calculate this

Skills:

Here's what they end up with just skill points and enhancements added:

UMD - 23
Disable Device - 27
Search - 25
Spot - 12

Ones I worry didn't reach a good enough level to be useful:

Balance - 8
Intimidate - 13

Hit points: 404

No idea if that's good bad or indifferent. Note that is the total the builder gave me with just feats and enhancements. I have no idea about equipment.



Saving throws:

Fort: 18
Reflex: 11
Will: 5

Frankly these look pathetic but it's what the builder said I would have. Again this is without equipment or buffs (but it does include enhancements.

Enhancements: (heres where the real mess lies I bet)

Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II

Now as you can see I went for Kensai II and Rogue Mechanic. Am I stretched too thin? Are the DD, Search and UMD numbers workable? Will I do enough damage to be respectable late game (I don't need to top the charts just make a worthy contribution)? I am open to changing the weapon I focus on I just chose Greatsword by default. I'm a bit shaky on what makes a Falchion better than Greatsword or where Greataxe fits in. I'm also worried about both HPs and especially those save numbers.

Please note that the concepts I am married to are THF, Traps, and UMD everything else is fungible. So if you have other ways to get those goals I am all ears. Thanks in advance for any help.



In the next post I'll be putting in the DDO Character Planner version in case anything was unclear or you prefer to scroll a lot.

JD

[kthulhu99]

Here's the promised planner output for those so inclined:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

2HF 
Level 1 True Neutral Warforged Male
(1 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 29
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 0
Fortitude: 3
Reflex: 3
Will: -2

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 1)
Strength             18                    18
Dexterity            12                    12
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 1)
Balance               5                     0
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         3                     3
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device        5                     6
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                  1                    -4
Intimidate            3                     3
Jump                  8                     3
Listen               -2                    -2
Move Silently         1                    -4
Open Lock             5                     6
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                5                     5
Search                5                     5
Spot                  1                     1
Swim                  4                    -6
Tumble                2                    -3
Use Magic Device      3                     3

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Adamantine Body
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I

[emptysands]

Two comments. Isn't 7 rogue (additional 1d6 sneak attack) better than 2 barb (DR1/- and Uncanny Dodge - the rogue already gets this). Second usually better to take rogue levels from 8th - gives you the extra skill point from the +2 INT at 7th.

[Adalita]

There's nothing wrong with this build however I'm not sure that I see the logic of of the one level of barb, is it for rage? If so then you might consider just carrying pots. As a fighter I doubt you will be getting much sneak attack damage however that would be dependent on your play style. I think some might question whether the adamantine feat is worth it

Alternatives: Rangers work well on rogue splashes as search and spot are both class skills for rangers, meaning your skill points aren't as stretched, so you can get by with less rogue levels while still maintaining your trap monkey skills. Also have you considered Palladin / Rogue? There are some good builds out there with THF. Having decent CHA will help with your UMD. Pallys can be stretched for attribute points, but access to 32 point builds and tomes would alleviate that.

[Angelus_dead]

So I'm relatively new to the game and I've decided I wanted to break from the standard TWF builds I seen a lot of. Next I wanted to have good Search, DD, and UMD skills. Lastly I didn't want to be squishy (maybe even off tank).

What about a falchion-using Rog20 or Rog19/Barb1, or an unarmed Monk19/Rog1? Any of those can do the role you want, and without fighting with weapons in both hands.

* 1. Adamantite Body
* 12. Cleave
* 18. Great Cleave

Those three feats add minimal value (although with fighter levels you may have enough slots to waste some). Note that people using THF weapons rarely go for meaningful AC, unless they're unarmored and using dex+wis defense.

Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization I

FYI, greatsword is an inferior weapon to falchion. (Unless you're holding epic Sword of Shadow)

Now as you can see I went for Kensai II and Rogue Mechanic. Am I stretched too thin? Are the DD, Search and UMD numbers workable?

I suggest nobody go for Mechanic unless you plan to shoot repeating crossbows. Skills are viable as long as you put in 23 ranks to each.

There's nothing wrong with this build however I'm not sure that I see the logic of of the one level of barb

The biggest reason to splash Barb1 is for running speed, followed by martial weapons and +1 power attack. Prior to the announcement of Deadly Shadows a rog19/barb1 build was definitively superior to rog20.

[kthulhu99]

First off thank you very very much for the replies. Info like Adamantite and the Cleave twins being minimally useful is fantastic (especially since a lot of these sound good on paper).

There's nothing wrong with this build however I'm not sure that I see the logic of of the one level of barb, is it for rage?

The 1 Barb splash is just like Angelus said for run speed and +1 power which I figured was better than going to 8 Rogue or 13 Fighter.

Also have you considered Palladin / Rogue? There are some good builds out there with THF. Having decent CHA will help with your UMD. Pallys can be stretched for attribute points, but access to 32 point builds and tomes would alleviate that.

I looked initially at Paladins but never saw a build that had the trap skills (a few with a rogue splash for UMD only) nor did I see any THF builds that weren't pure tank. The extra kick you get from smites (I think it's smite anyway) with TWF double dipping definitely scared me away from "gimping" myself by going THF instead. I didn't mind the tanking idea too much but I'd rather be DPS first with a dash of off-tank than a pure tank build.

As an exercise in increasing my knowledge about builds I decided to fix the noted errors above and present a new build for you to critique. I think I tightened it up quite a bit:

12 Fighter/7 Rogue/1 Barb
Race: WF
Alignment: True Neutral

Stats: (NOTE: I ditched 2 points of CHA for INT figuring more skill points > -1 UMD)
18 Str + 6 item + 5 level + 2 tome + 2 enhance = 33
12 Dex + 6 item + 2 tome = 20
16 Con + 6 item + 2 tome + 2 enhance = 26
14 Int + 6 item +2 tome = 22
6 Wis + 6 item + 2 tome = 14
6 Cha + 6 item + 2 tome =14

Feats: (NOTE: More toughness, less bad feats, took CE for Imp Trip which I read very nice things about for control as opposed to Stunning Blow)

* 1. Toughness
* 2. Two handed Fighting
* 3. Toughness
* 4. Power Attack
* 6. Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
* 6. Weapon Specialization: Slashing
* 8. Imp. THF
* 9. Toughness
* 12. Imp Crit: Slashing
* 15. Combat Expertise
* 15. Greater THF
* 15. GWF: Slashing
* 18. Imp. Trip
* 20. GWS: Slashing

Level order:
1 Rogue
2 Fighter
3 Barb
4-8 Fighter
9-13 Rogue
14-17 Fighter
18 Rogue (skill catch up)
19-20 Fighter

Armor Class:

Unconcerned with it this build

Skills: (NOTE: much better on this front although I didn't feel like going back and stripping out the Intimidation (since I won't be off tanking with this) I will probably remove it if put into action)

UMD - 22
Disable Device - 26
Search - 26
Spot - 14
Intimidate - 23
Balance - 24

Hit points: 430

(Better base than before so that's good)

Saving throws: (NOTE: Still look ****** to me)

Fort: 17
Reflex: 11
Will: 5

Enhancements: (NOTE: I think I tightened these up pretty well. I think...)

Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Kensei Falchion Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Falchion Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II

Also here's the Character Planner output for completeness (now it goes to 20!):

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

2HFv3 
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Male
(12 Fighter \ 1 Barbarian \ 7 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 430
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 11
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    27
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                6                     8
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    24
Bluff                -2                     1
Concentration         3                     7
Diplomacy            -2                     1
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle                1                     2
Heal                 -2                    -1
Hide                  1                     2
Intimidate            2                    23
Jump                  8                    18
Listen               -2                    -1
Move Silently         1                     2
Open Lock             5                     6
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                6                     7
Search                6                    26
Spot                  2                    14
Swim                  4                     8
Tumble                2                     3
Use Magic Device      2                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+7)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Kensei Falchion Mastery I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+6)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Falchion Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+5)
Skill: Search (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost IV


Level 20 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I

Again, TIA for replies!