The Advantages Of Class On Ranged Combat

[sirdanile]

Currently there are only two acceptable paths when creating a ranged character, 20 ranger or 1 (Casting class)/1 (non fighter melee class)/18 fighter. I am going to analyze exactly why this disparity exists and the advantages and disadvantages of each set up.

(Starting analysis)
Dps wise even a well geared ranged character cannot compete with the weakest of melee dps builds, each individual hit is OK compared to melee but bows get neither glancing blows nor offhand swings and fire slower than a sword and board melee, this is supposedly because being able to stay away from the enemy and reduce incoming damage was factored into the equation as well as the decision being made back when the level cap was 10, much has changed and dps standards have increased exponentially as raid bosses acquired hit points in the millions as well as normal trash having well over 1000. Now of course being able to stay far away is an advantage but shouldn't be taken too seriously as while you are more than 30 feet away you do not gain the benefits of point blank shot or sneak attack.

(Disparity)
The reason the disparity exists which places rangers and fighters on top of the ranged combat chart is because they have more static bonuses to their damage than other classes and can afford the insane number of feats needed to range compared to melee. For fighters 5 feats and several optional feats are affordable while rangers get 3 of them for free, other classes have to blow most of their feats just to take an inferior choice than melee. The reason fighter even remains as a top ranged build is because arcane archer provides a large damage boost and the extra melee class splash really helps your build compared to an extra feat and the 10% capstone.

(Capstones)
Ranger capstone - "25%" boost to attack speed
Fighter capstone - "10%" boost to attack speed

The numbers are thrown off by the fact that they only help the actual firing of a bow and not the reloading, cutting the increases almost in half making both capstones not nearly as powerful as it could be.

(Feats and Enhancements and Spells)
Rangers gain three of the required ranged feats and easy access to arcane archer via their own spell point pool, they do not need to splash to gain the largest ranged dps increase in the game. Rangers gain +14 damage vs favored enemies (99% of end game content) as well as sprint boost. Rangers gain evasion at level 9 and have naturally high reflex saves, rangers recieve bow strength for free though they also get the twf feats free and are considered the best at adapting to their situation. Rangers gain a decent sized spell point pool and pretty good spells to use it on such as cure serious wounds, bark skin, resist/protect energy, neutralize poison, freedom of movement, and rams might.

Fighters gain +4 damage from weapon specialization against all enemies and another +2 damage from the enhancements associated with it, a fighter recieves bonuses kensai such as +2 to damage, +4 to critical damage and increased crit range...sadly the combat feat dc increase is wasted as there are no ranged combat feats. Fighters can also easily acquire bow str and a melee line of feats as well due to their many feats. Fighters gain strength enhancements and 30% haste boost clickies quite a few (9?) time per day, though the boost only turns out to be 15% as mentioned in the capstone section. Fighters can a couple level 1 spells from the spell list of the chosen class and have a fairly small sp pool.

(Fighter Splash Benefits)
Fighters can splash any class with an sp pool to qualify for arcane archer provided they are an elf. Cleric, wizard, favored soul, sorceror, or bard are all decent choices though bard is generally the one chosen most due to the skills it allows access to such as use magic device. Wizard is probably the second most chosen class as you may take mental toughness as your wizard bonus feat.

Fighters also have another class to splash into which can be monk, barbarian, ranger, or rogue. Monks gain another bonus feat and wisdom to ac which can work for some builds. Barbarian gains access to a rage clicky, 10% movement speed, and sprint boost enhancements. Ranger gains bow str for free and a single favored enemy at +3 damage. Rogue gives access to trap skills, umd, and a 1d6+3 sneak attack which only works within 30 feet.

The splashes I think benefit the fighter the most are bard 1/barbarian 1 or wizard 1/ranger 1 - This is because bard grants access to umd and the barbarian makes you faster than a pure ranger while giving you access to sprint boost which far outweighs any other splash, the only other truely competing class is ranger with it's free bow strength, although fighter gets plenty of feats to take it themselves it does allow them to more easily gain a melee line of attack as well.

(Race Analysis)
Currently Elf is the best ranged race due to the +2 damage with longbows, support of melee damage with racial enhancements, for a fighter displacement clickies and arcane archer access. Without a doubt elf is the best race for ranging though if one wishes you can make a human ranger which allows you to get improved recovery, higher base con, and an enhancement boost to strength and damage while still acquiring arcane archer.

(True Reincarnation)
Rangers gain +2 damage and +2 energy resistance when TRing which stacks up to 3 times which is a pretty nice benefit, can cast barkskin for a feat which is decent if you TR away from the ranger class.

Fighters gain +1 to attack rolls making it relatively useless for ranged characters.

Barbarians support the bard/barbarian class splash with the increase to hp and with the active feat giving a major power boost to your barbarian rage clicky and giving you another one.

Monks give +1 damage when TRing which is useful to all classes and the evasion clicky can benefit a fighter.

Sorceror gives 20 extra sp great for casting those imbues, though the active feat does not grant you access to arcane archer as a pure fighter.

(Ending Summary)
Personally I find rangers more survivable with self healing and evasion, and are much easier to build while a ranged fighter is less survivable but more supported by true reincarnation and would work out to be much better as a long term goal. You may draw your own conclusions from this.

[Antheal]

(Ending Summary)
Personally I find rangers more survivable with self healing and evasion, and are much easier to build while a ranged fighter is less survivable but more supported by true reincarnation and would work out to be much better as a long term goal. You may draw your own conclusions from this.

Unfortunately, it would appear the conclusion has to be:

Dps wise even a well geared ranged character cannot compete with the weakest of melee dps builds, each individual hit is OK compared to melee but bows get neither glancing blows nor offhand swings and fire slower than a sword and board melee, this is supposedly because being able to stay away from the enemy and reduce incoming damage was factored into the equation as well as the decision being made back when the level cap was 10, much has changed and dps standards have increased exponentially as raid bosses acquired hit points in the millions as well as normal trash having well over 1000. Now of course being able to stay far away is an advantage but shouldn't be taken too seriously as while you are more than 30 feet away you do not gain the benefits of point blank shot or sneak attack.

This pretty much says it all.

[Dylos_Moon]

Sorceror gives 20 extra sp great for casting those imbues, though the active feat does not grant you access to arcane archer as a pure fighter.

The purchased feat does, however you won't have an sp pool to use imbue abilities so a pure fighter past life sorcerer can be an arcane archer, but all they gain from it is +5 returning arrows.

[sirdanile]

The purchased feat does, however you won't have an sp pool to use imbue abilities so a pure fighter past life sorcerer can be an arcane archer, but all they gain from it is +5 returning arrows.

Better than nothing I suppose.

Unfortunately, it would appear the conclusion has to be:

Dps wise even a well geared ranged character cannot compete with the weakest of melee dps builds, each individual hit is OK compared to melee but bows get neither glancing blows nor offhand swings and fire slower than a sword and board melee, this is supposedly because being able to stay away from the enemy and reduce incoming damage was factored into the equation as well as the decision being made back when the level cap was 10, much has changed and dps standards have increased exponentially as raid bosses acquired hit points in the millions as well as normal trash having well over 1000. Now of course being able to stay far away is an advantage but shouldn't be taken too seriously as while you are more than 30 feet away you do not gain the benefits of point blank shot or sneak attack.

This pretty much says it all.

You may have a point...

[Dylos_Moon]

Better than nothing I suppose.

At the cost of 8AP and a Feat, I think there would be better choices, especially once you get GS bows. Arcane Archer is near pointless without the imbue abilities.

That being said, it was originally my suggestion to allow the sorcerer past life feat to fulfill the requirements for arcane archer (I had also suggested letting the wizard past life feat qualify as well) However, my suggestion at the time was with the wrongful assumption that a character without a blue bar would get a blue bar from the sorcerer past life feat (which imo they should, and not just because I want an arcane archer with kensei 3, evasion, and the ability to use imbues)

[Maldavenous]

Unfortunately, it would appear the conclusion has to be:

Dps wise even a well geared ranged character cannot compete with the weakest of melee dps builds, each individual hit is OK compared to melee but bows get neither glancing blows nor offhand swings and fire slower than a sword and board melee, this is supposedly because being able to stay away from the enemy and reduce incoming damage was factored into the equation as well as the decision being made back when the level cap was 10, much has changed and dps standards have increased exponentially as raid bosses acquired hit points in the millions as well as normal trash having well over 1000. Now of course being able to stay far away is an advantage but shouldn't be taken too seriously as while you are more than 30 feet away you do not gain the benefits of point blank shot or sneak attack.

This pretty much says it all.

Just Three Words:

Improved Precise Shot

If you're using it correctly you're likely putting out close to as much damage as other decent (not amazing) melee characters. Once you line up Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot you end up putting out some nearly unmatchable damage. My general rule is if it's a single monster you use ranged only when you are using Manyshot or if the monster will be dead before you switch from ranged to melee, if you have 3+ monsters on screen line up Improved Precise Shot and put out a significant amount of damage. Also if you have some kind of possible status effect this is far more likely to go off. For instance I find Earthgrab to work very well in epics, I'll often have as many as 5 monsters in a line to shoot through and the melees will shift to whichever monster gets grabbed.

[sirdanile]

Just Three Words:
Improved Precise Shot

Agreed IPS does help out our damage and utility quite a bit it still doesn't bring us anywhere close to the middle of the road dps builds and is extremely situational, where dps matters most such as raid bosses there are often only 1 enemy at a time, though it is quite fun seeing all those orthons near the lever pop up in tod and giving them a good blast with your manyshot / lit II bow.

Which makes me think, the difference between burst dps and steady dps is quite large, rangers have 20 seconds of large burst dps which can pull unwanted attention from enemies and slayer arrows work only 1/20 the time and lightning strike only goes off .5/20 of the time, ranged combat needs more static damage increases.

[Aesop]

Note Rangers receive 5 free Ranged Combat Feats not 3

Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot


all without the Point Blank Shot Prerequisite (and the PA,CE or Wpn Spec Feat for Bow Strength)

The 10% Capstone for a Fighter is not as helpful as a combination of Kensai and Arcane Archer (I don't think) So Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, FvS, or m7 Favorite Bard would be a good thing to Splash to get the AA features


Aesop

[Aesop]

Agreed IPS does help out our damage and utility quite a bit it still doesn't bring us anywhere close to the middle of the road dps builds and is extremely situational, where dps matters most such as raid bosses there are often only 1 enemy at a time, though it is quite fun seeing all those orthons near the lever pop up in tod and giving them a good blast with your manyshot / lit II bow.

Which makes me think, the difference between burst dps and steady dps is quite large, rangers have 20 seconds of large burst dps which can pull unwanted attention from enemies and slayer arrows work only 1/20 the time and lightning strike only goes off .5/20 of the time, ranged combat needs more static damage increases.

Which is why a suggestion for a Power Attack like feat was requested a nyumber of times...

I call it Over Draw myself... it would not stack with IPS though


Aesop

[sigtrent]

I was happy how this AA came out.. its a Bard/Fighter/Ranger
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...42#post1682742

Full feat list for TWF and Archer
60% of the fighter benefits: Haste Boost 3, Strength 2, Kensei 1, Weapon Spec ranged
5% of ranger benefits: Single dot of favored enemy, 2 free feats
War-chanter: Haste, Displace, Blur, Fascinate, Rage, Healing, +5/+6 Courage Song, +2 attack from greatness.

In a vacuum its very competitive with fighter or ranger routes and fascinate helps you deal with up close confrontations. In a full party the ranger or fighter will likely benefit from a stronger bard and will clearly have the edge.

[GhoulsTouch]

Rogue gives access to trap skills, umd, and a 1d6+3 sneak attack which only works within 30 feet.

Assuming you only take one or two levels of rogue. With more rogue you would have more DPS. Rngr 2/Rogue 5/ Fighter 13 would give you alot of free feats, alot of feats in general, and I believe 3d6 plus along with enhancements you can choose to amp your sneak attack. With bluff you can get your sneak in even when kiting with aggro from just out of the enemies reach as long as you got the speed to keep some distance.

Packaging ranged combat as only effective with two splash class varients really is limiting your horizons.

You can add more rogue for higher tiers in subtle backstabbing and more sneak damage, or ranger to get the full twf chain....etc etc. You might even consider going barbarian instead of rogue to increase your bowstrength in your rage. I clearly think many are failing to see the possibilities. I mean wouldn't you want to make a vicious frenzied attack with sneak attack bonuses on top of it in a place where you aren't taking the hits to your clerics dismay? Tons of possibilites, depends on how you mix it up.

Splash classes arent always the best way to go, just the easiest. My suggestion though as your saves can suffer, moreso will saves then others...halfling. They get bonuses to saves at the start and enhancements later to help maintain some balance.

[sirdanile]

Assuming you only take one or two levels of rogue. With more rogue you would have more DPS. Rngr 2/Rogue 5/ Fighter 13 would give you alot of free feats, alot of feats in general, and I believe 3d6 plus along with enhancements you can choose to amp your sneak attack.

I believe you are overestimating how good sneak attacking with a bow is, 30 feet is a huge limitation for a bow user, by the time they get within 30 feet you have either already established aggro or even if you havn't due to the lower rate of fire compared to other weapon styles you gain very little from it.

With bluff you can get your sneak in even when kiting with aggro from just out of the enemies reach as long as you got the speed to keep some distance.

Bluff has a small period of time where you cannot move while using it, has a large cool down, isn't garunteed to work, and overall creates an inferior waste of skill points, I have not tested whether a bluffed enemy can be sneak attacked outside of the 30 foot range.

Packaging ranged combat as only effective with two splash class varients really is limiting your horizons.

Ok, I can kind of see some fighter 12/(other 5 melee/class with spellpoint pool 1), though because of the nearly required caster splash to be useful the best thing I can think of to take here would be bard or ranger, granting you a spell point pool and some decent bonuses to damage and utility, paladin would be a close third due to the healing amp from hunter of the dead or the small bonus damage vs evil outsiders, fourth in line would be 5 levels in an evasion class such as rogue which grants easier skill useage although there is still a problem with sneak attacks.

You can add more rogue for higher tiers in subtle backstabbing and more sneak damage, or ranger to get the full twf chain....etc etc. You might even consider going barbarian instead of rogue to increase your bowstrength in your rage. I clearly think many are failing to see the possibilities. I mean wouldn't you want to make a vicious frenzied attack with sneak attack bonuses on top of it in a place where you aren't taking the hits to your clerics dismay? Tons of possibilites, depends on how you mix it up.

once again, sneak attacks are underwhelming due to the range limitation, if you're going high enough in ranger for the twf chain just go 20 ranger as you won't get kensai II or III from it, barbarian is almost a decent idea here although frenzy doesn't grant vicious to ranged weapons it only boosts your strength by 2 for a minute. Within 30 feet is within damage range for many creatures to the clerics dismay.

Splash classes arent always the best way to go, just the easiest. My suggestion though as your saves can suffer, moreso will saves then others...halfling. They get bonuses to saves at the start and enhancements later to help maintain some balance.

Of course your saves will be awkward as a ranged fighter but going halfling will not solve this issue, the racial enhancements to saves are OK and the sneak attack enhancements have the same problems with normal sneak attacks, 30 foot range limitation. Of course going halfling you won't have to worry about a caster splash for arcane archer as a hafling can't even take those enhancements losing a whole 25 dps from bursts of 500.

[sirdanile]

I was happy how this AA came out.. its a Bard/Fighter/Ranger
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...42#post1682742

Full feat list for TWF and Archer
60% of the fighter benefits: Haste Boost 3, Strength 2, Kensei 1, Weapon Spec ranged
5% of ranger benefits: Single dot of favored enemy, 2 free feats
War-chanter: Haste, Displace, Blur, Fascinate, Rage, Healing, +5/+6 Courage Song, +2 attack from greatness.

In a vacuum its very competitive with fighter or ranger routes and fascinate helps you deal with up close confrontations. In a full party the ranger or fighter will likely benefit from a stronger bard and will clearly have the edge.

I can see that playing pretty decently, though one thing to remember is that bards will be accepted into groups just for their songs, damage output is a bonus.

taking care of most of your own buffs is definately a bonus though kensai I is comparatively sup par which is why I am focused mainly on acquiring kensai III in my main post and possibly kensai II if you find that 5 levels in a class outweigh an increased crit range.

Which is why a suggestion for a Power Attack like feat was requested a nyumber of times...

I call it Over Draw myself... it would not stack with IPS though


Aesop

I read that suggestion and thought it would do much to help alleviate ranged underpoweredness, though I must admit it is a shame it requires a sixth feat albeit a well spent one, also the concern of it stacking with IPS or not worries me.

Note Rangers receive 5 free Ranged Combat Feats not 3

Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot


all without the Point Blank Shot Prerequisite (and the PA,CE or Wpn Spec Feat for Bow Strength)

Aesop

Thank you for the correction, I forgot about rapid shot and although I didnt forget about bow strength I did forget to mention it in the rangers feat benefits.

The 10% Capstone for a Fighter is not as helpful as a combination of Kensai and Arcane Archer (I don't think) So Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, FvS, or m7 Favorite Bard would be a good thing to Splash to get the AA features

To put the capstone into perspective 10% is only 6 more shots per minute, if it were working properly, currently it is only a 5% increase due to it only affecting fireing times and as such 3 extra shots per minute turns out majorly sub par to 25 dps increase (a nearly 10% increase to our dps, melees would KILL to gain this large of a boost, unfortunately their dps tends to be in 600-800s whilst ours is stuck down around 300.)