End Game Class break down

[Crann]

For those who are currently playing end game content on Orien, do you think the distribution of classes of your fellow end-gamers is balanced? Perhaps not neccessarily of classes, but of roles. Which class/role is it that you find your raid group waiting for to start? Are there too many healers, DPS'ers, casters, or not enough. What classes/roles would you encourage your fellow Orienites to level up and join you at end game?

[Cupcake]

For those who are currently playing end game content on Orien, do you think the distribution of classes of your fellow end-gamers is balanced? Perhaps not neccessarily of classes, but of roles. Which class/role is it that you find your raid group waiting for to start? Are there too many healers, DPS'ers, casters, or not enough. What classes/roles would you encourage your fellow Orienites to level up and join you at end game?

Good afternoon, Crann.

Nice question. I would like to know the answer as well.

[moritob]

Believe it or not, we're usually waiting for melee guildees for our raids. I say guildees because we make sure these folks have the appropriate HP, boss beaters, quest items (ie. Boots of Anchoring), build, etc. There are great melees out there who know what they're doing, but there are even more melees out there who think 200hp is sufficient for raiding.

We're currently building an intimi-tank. I'm pooling my resources/time/effort to getting this intimi-tank to where he needs to be. So intimi-tanks are probably more coveted than others? My two cents.


Peas

[Crazyfruit]

I'd say the thing we're lacking most at high levels is (good) bards.

I don't usually sit around waiting for one, but when we've got 4-8 slots left a good bard is the difference between hoping for above average players & taking the next bunch who click. This is especially true for epic content... I'd be amazed if I saw a virtuoso enthralling a bunch of stuff on this server.

I've only seen one player (Sqream) doing that in my entire time here. I can count the others I've seen fascinating monsters well on one hand.

[Xeriphim]

Believe it or not, we're usually waiting for melee guildees for our raids. I say guildees because we make sure these folks have the appropriate HP, boss beaters, quest items (ie. Boots of Anchoring), build, etc. There are great melees out there who know what they're doing, but there are even more melees out there who think 200hp is sufficient for raiding.

We're currently building an intimi-tank. I'm pooling my resources/time/effort to getting this intimi-tank to where he needs to be. So intimi-tanks are probably more coveted than others? My two cents.


Peas

I completly concur with the above . Intimi tanks are rare . Also the point on bards I'd agree with too .

However Bards I have noticed get very discouraging to play past level 6 If your ending up pugging alot . On this server if your pugging and happen to be a bard . Fist thing asked is what your build is , second if your not a warchanter or a spell singer your kicked from the group told to re roll to one because virt's are deemed by pugs as worthless since they can not provide ironskin chant or spellsinger trance buffs . An you got the really brutal short bus riders out there who demand that the bard sings both ironskin chant and spellsinger trance buffs an when you explain you can't do both they kick you anyways .

Far too many pugs on this server have 0 clue what crowd control is let alone the usefull and powerfull ability of a bard fascinate . Til that outlook changes , I see bards as being rare . More pugs taking the time to learn about what each class can offer to a party I still feel is the most usefull thing the general population could benefit the most from . But this takes time as the server is still very young with alot of new people .

The really good talented bards I feel for , there rare and you can count them one one hand . Hopefully in time that will change . gotta have faith .

[Crann]

I can understand the issue with bards, there is a definite negative vibe on the forums against any bard other than a warchanter, and also it seems against any warchanter that isnt an "Axesinger" multiclass. I've had the pleasure of playing with Sqream, he actually recruited me into Ransacked the week before they were disbanded on Orien.

I have also experimented with an intimitank, but the lack of end game raiding has left me without the equipment needed to get an effective AC.

I have an Alt problem, and have many toons at the 10-16 level. I am trying to get a feel for what type of classes are needed here on Orien at the higher levels and maybe focus more time to get one of those characters up in level.

Edit: P.S. Thanks for responding all, I view you guys specifically as the better players here, and value your input.

[3E..Stumagoo..]

Why dont people in pugs get over themselves, and try something new, I like playing pugs and seeing how a character buildI havent grouped before with works with my build, I like seeing how a group of misfits and unusual choices fare. There is a point where having the perfect party makes a run easy, but hell I am here to meet people and have fun, If I am always looking for a cleric a rouge and a tank because thats what I believe my party has to be made up of then I am being short sighted and cutting out the opportunity to meet new people and maybe recruit someone really decent into my guild, and hell maybe that person actually has the perfect toon to run with me hidden away anyways.

/rant over ... sorry

[Mythal]

Well I'd have to peek in and just say, that unfortunately due to turbines game design (flaws) that endgame builds viable, especially for epic stuff, are pretty limited to a few set combinations. Unfortunately there are pure classes which simply arent viable at end game versus a superior alternative (example: cleric is meaningless because there is fvs, pure 20 rogues are just plain gimp, etc.)... It doesnt matter how well you equip or gear up these certain flawed builds because even a less properly geared toon of the superior alternative will outperform it. I think this is a very sad thing and a flaw of game design on turbine's part. I wish it wasnt so, I like seeing diversity.

That having been said, everybody makes the first few toons theyve ever made into usually sub-par builds, and it separates the 'men from the boys' sortof speak when it comes down to who is able to learn the game, understand how to fix their char, and either TR or roll up another one that is better. The problem at end game on orien as far as I see it, for a good majority of the server, is that there is simply too many people who continue playing their gimped versions (of viable builds) or gimped versions (of unviable builds) - rather than accepting the reality that they really need to improve their character to be useful, which sometimes means TRing but often times only neccessarily means an LR or GR.

I'll give an example -- paladins. Paladins are a tough cookie to cut right, just by nature of the class. However, built properly, a paladin is a very potent DPS machine which is also very survivable and beneficial to the group. The orien dilemma? I have yet to see more than 1 paladin built properly on this server, with 2 coming very close (arguable, I'd say). Yet paladin seems to be one of the most popular classes for players on here.

What I think your question is all about is, will my character be useful at endgame? The answer is simply: Make a build that is provenly useful at endgame, which you can, with some work, research out and figure out by forums posts and talking to other players, but of course experience is the best teacher - play to 20 a few times, or at least once, and go around and see what kind of challenges you will be facing. Learn from them. Pay attention when youre out raiding or doing high lvl quests, to the mobs, to the surroundings, and to anyone in the group who is kind enough to explain stuff. Alot of players think it is sufficient to simply show up to a raid with any kind of gear/character, swing their weapon, and thats it - someone there will pull them through anyway and get it done. Unfortunately for them, if you actually want to complete any of the current endgame stuff, its not enough.

I dont think there is a lack of anything on orien as far as diversity goes, however. Which is back to the point of your post I hope.
My 2cp suggestion would be simply to roll up one of the following:
An arcane/utility,
A support,
or a DPS.
Arcane/utility builds are pure sorcs, pure wizzies, 18wiz/2rogs with trapping/stealth etc.
Support builds are pure fvs, bards, etc.
DPS builds are fighter/barb/pal pures or fighter/barb/ranger/rog/mnk/pal/bards multiclassed (DPS builds are the one exception where multiclassing is the most superior alternative compared to pretty much any other pure alternative. IE: 12ftr/8barb is superior to 20ftr or 20barb for THF DPS....the 'monster' variants 12ftr/6rgr/2mnk-rog-barb are superior to any 20rgr/ftr for TWF dps)

If you have one of those builds, built properly, and set your sights on a good gear setup, you are golden and set to do whatever you want in ddo.

As far as this talk of bards, sure there is a bit of a lack of really good virtuoso bards here that know how to play them. Obviously whoever knows Q (sqream) knows how **** good he is at it after 4 years of playing that. Another up and coming contender I would definitely say is Gwennie. I dont see that much of a lack of bards though, as we usually have more than 1 person online with a bard main or bard alt for anything we do. And thats where bards are a bit of a misguided goal if you all think rolling up a bard will make you an automatic invite to any group: 1 bard is awesome, 2 bards is pointless.

[Cupcake]

I have 3 bards.

1. spellsinger
2. warchanter
3. virtuoso.

I have know seen several people say that the virtuoso is preffered at higher levels.

Why? What are they taking that is so beneficial to a group at higher levels?

Could just be that I do not have everything available yet. At the present time, my enthrall is for undead. I had options if I remember correctly for construct and one other.

Any insight would be appreciated. I wouldn't mind leveling my virtuoso. She also can't fight. At least not in her present form but she has CC and some healing and plenty of UMD for scrolls.

[LunaCee]

Its precisely because of how high the enthrall DC the virtuoso can get that also works against undead and constructs that they are a godsend in epics. 5000+ HP that would otherwise have to be beaten into submission is just left behind in la-la-land as the party goes rushing forward to the end of the quest in some locations, and in others it dramatically cuts down the number of critters damaging the party at once as they set about killing things.

[Crann]

Enthrall is the granted ability for the Virt PrE. Look under the virt enhancement, click the "+" next to it, then you can drag Enthrall to your hotbar. It is more usefull than fascinate, as they dont break enchantment as quickly when struck, and then they suffer a minus 2 to hit and saves.

[weewoo0]

I'll give an example -- paladins. Paladins are a tough cookie to cut right, just by nature of the class. However, built properly, a paladin is a very potent DPS machine which is also very survivable and beneficial to the group. The orien dilemma? I have yet to see more than 1 paladin built properly on this server, with 2 coming very close (arguable, I'd say). Yet paladin seems to be one of the most popular classes for players on here.
.

any suggestions for me mythal? actually opened the forum account for once just to ask
its kilab btw ^^ i'll get around to puttin that on the sig at some random point.... maybe....

[shin13]

i was wondering if TonyMontana or Mcjagger made your shortlist of Pally and Bards since both were one of the first (if not the first) on Orien :P

[shin13]

Not a bad build just because many people were inspired by singers like Mcjagger and possibly Glum and other axesinger i may not know of in orien doesn't mean its a tired build no one wants to see ;P. I'd say right now an axesinger or a Virtuoso is the way to go; Virtuoso though in not having the full bard song seem to be less useful for High level raids but will excel in Epics .

P.S. Bohemian Rhapsody will rock ur world when he is 20 :P

[Xeriphim]

Enthrall is actually just the virt's upgrade of basic fascinate . The music of the dead ( undead fascinate ) , and music of the makers ( construct fascinate ) are just special fascinates open to all bard spec's . Enthrall is limited to the virt , and enthrall does NOT apply to music of the dead , nor music of the maker . It's just more common for virts to carry the special undead and construct fascinates as it's alot easier on enhancement points for them to aquire both those songs compared to warchanters and spellsingers .

Warchanters and spell singers are required to have extra song IV . in order to take both special fascinates for undead and constructs . While a virtuso only needs virt I to qualify for those abilities .

The higher DC on enthrall is really nice to have but the DC on fascinate is high enough on it's own it'll land in end game without needing the extra dc bump enthrall offers . An often the -2 penalty to hit and saves an skill checks that is applied to enthralled mobs is not enough most of the time to be of value . As mobs generally are long dead before it would become a usefull debuff . In Epic content this changes due to the high hit points most Epic mobs have .

This is why most folks prefer the spell chanter and warchanter bards over virtuso's . Plus the fact most pugs on this server would rather slug it out with a pack of mobs or kite them through a fire wall or blade barrier then take the few seconds required to fascinating a whole room of mobs . Plus both spellsingers an war chanters offer there own buff songs which benefit the whole group / raid . A virt only offers the enthrall option .

Also for war chanters only a warchanter with there song enhancements maxed out will give melee the maxium bonuses on the inspire courage song buff . which is also highly sought after by end game melee .


I'm not against virt's by any means . All three bard spec's have there uses but sadly there's this misconception that many feel only good bard is a war chanter . An way too many that feel the ultimate bard is some flavor of the week build of 16 bard / 2 fighter / 2 rogue .

Hopefully this helps answer a few bard misconceptions ^_^

cheers .

[Mythal]

Not a bad build just because many people were inspired by singers like Mcjagger and possibly Glum and other axesinger i may not know of in orien doesn't mean its a tired build no one wants to see ;P. I'd say right now an axesinger or a Virtuoso is the way to go; Virtuoso though in not having the full bard song seem to be less useful for High level raids but will excel in Epics .

P.S. Bohemian Rhapsody will rock ur world when he is 20 :P

lol dude there were already handfuls of both pally's and axesingers back in november/december before glum/mcjagger were even made, but i do think its a nice build so definitely for the warchanter variant pretty nice. 14bard/6kensai is however pretty far superior if you dont mind not having the rogue abilities....
15 bard is pretty moot. AC song isnt going to help anyone - if you actually need it you dont have enough AC..... (in endgame AC is now pretty pointless. my monk hits 76 raidbuffed AC with specced gear can hit exactly 80...but there is no point, i still get thrashed in epic. I will not be keeping that monk as a monk for long, and ill never build an AC toon again.)

[Mythal]

i was wondering if TonyMontana or Mcjagger made your shortlist of Pally and Bards since both were one of the first (if not the first) on Orien :P

oh and tbh i didnt remember off top of my head all the pally's....i was more talking about TRd pally's though as pally really needs those stat points and TRs to shine. as far as builds go though for the basics i am sure there are plenty out there, and ya i know tonymontana, you got a good pally there for sure
it'll shine shine shine the more you TR it....some classes, like say a barb, really dont benefit at all from TRing but a paladin just oozes benefits from those extra stat points and any side effects are just gravy topping.

my melee project is going to be a pally 14/ ranger 6 next, highest calc'd DPS possible TWF on any EO/undead targets, but very twitchy....lots of exalted smiting, divine sacrifices, clickies, spells.....i like playing those builds tho, thats my style.

Senmetsu has this build if you want to check out what he's capable of. It's TRd as well. Its pretty insane. Just make sure you give him a hard time for being so noob he didnt take power attack til i forced him to at 18 ))
hahaha....true story
(love you too sengimptsu! )

I'm not against virt's by any means . All three bard spec's have there uses but sadly there's this misconception that many feel only good bard is a war chanter . An way too many that feel the ultimate bard is some flavor of the week build of 16 bard / 2 fighter / 2 rogue .

Hopefully this helps answer a few bard misconceptions ^_^

cheers .

one of my buddies made a 16bard/2fighter/2BARB! i cringed so hard....i keep telling him, he isnt coming on my raids if any other bard is available it doesnt deter him yet though....we'll see....
maybe when he caps it, gets his lvl 6 bard spells and realizes he:
1) has hardly any sp to use the mass cure, which wont heal for a **** anyway...
2) cant use any of the spells because not only his SR but also his DC is worthless...

then he might listen to reason and TR or scrap it....

I actually made the mistake of first making my bard a 14bard/6barb and played it up and it sucked so hard i rerolled it to the 14/6kensai version....rage and spellbuffer does not stack. it also is 1 feat short of perfection on a human, which sucks....

[shin13]

I do agree that the 6 ftr vs 1 brd 2 ftr 3 rogue seems smart i'll have to look and see what kensai 1 gives :P

[ironfistvk]

Classes that should remain pure to get the best out of it imo

Clerics, FVS, Barbs, Wiz, Sorc. Dont know about other classes so will hush.

That being said clerics>fvs if pure healing is taken into consideration. All round role fvs>cleric.

Class breakdown for what this server needs for end game.....more barbs (THF....I dont use knitting needles aka twf) . Of course am prejudiced cause thats the first class I have played in ddo.

The problem with intim tanking not really a lot of situations where one is actually useful. You are better of making a hate tank and ofcourse barbs make the best hate tanks....nods. But thats cause mainly for the amount of hp they can get eating all the healers mana .

Wiz/rouge splash while brining more utility you are better off being pure Wiz simply cause of DCs and Spell pen.

Pure rogues are good end game including epics especially for traps. If you feel rouges cant get enough health to survive atleast few hits ask Data.

[Carpone]

DPS builds are fighter/barb/pal pures or fighter/barb/ranger/rog/mnk/pal/bards multiclassed (DPS builds are the one exception where multiclassing is the most superior alternative compared to pretty much any other pure alternative. IE: 12ftr/8barb is superior to 20ftr or 20barb for THF DPS....the 'monster' variants 12ftr/6rgr/2mnk-rog-barb are superior to any 20rgr/ftr for TWF dps)

I'd like to see the analysis to backup the claim that 12ftr/8barb > 20barb for THF DPS. Got a link? I can't find the reference to it at the moment, but I think Shade did an analysis at the start of module 9 and determined 20bar wins. If I can find it, I'll edit with a link.

my melee project is going to be a pally 14/ ranger 6 next, highest calc'd DPS possible TWF on any EO/undead targets, but very twitchy....lots of exalted smiting, divine sacrifices, clickies, spells.....i like playing those builds tho, thats my style.

Check out Junts' 'how to build a paladin' thread regarding 20pal vs 14pal/6rng, in the paladin forum. He argues 20pal > 14pal/6rng.

Edit: The 14pal/6rng v. 20pal analysis starts halfway down on page 9: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542&page=9