Rogue/Wizard, what to get at 1st level?

[Raist.Magus]

Hi everyone

I'm new to the game, though I have long years of experience with pen and papper dnd.

I want to play a multiclassed Rogue/Wizard because I'm playing with a friend (2 ppl party) and we need lots of different classes. Is it enough to add a couple of Rogue levels to a Wizard build? Will I be able to pick locks/disarm traps etc etc later with only 2 levels in Rogue? Or should I go for equally leveled classes eg Rogue 5/ Wizard 6?

In any case, which should I level first? Rogue gets tons of skill points and wizard gets free starting spells. Which is more important and harder to get later in the game? (Will I find enough scrolls to scribe to my spellbook to compensate for starting as a Rogue?)

Btw, what would you suggest for the other PC? We're thinking of a Cleric or Fighter/Cleric.

Also btw, is a lot of melee necessary? My Wiz/Rog is intended to stay back and watch, not to melee.

Thanks in advance

[Beld]

to get all the extra skill points.....most usually take the second level of rogue after getting Wall of Fire (at character level 9) and also to max skills back out.

By that time, you usually have enough intel to keep the skills maxed out with the wizard skill points (keep in mind, you have to spend 2 points per skill when you level the wizard on the rogue skills as they will be cross-class skills).

I have a x Wizard/2 Rogue split and can get all traps/locks thru elite at level with no trouble. You will need to get skill items (search/spot/disable/open lock) that are appropriate as soon as possible typically each odd level.

You will also want to use the highest + thieves tools you can find (you can use +5 tools at level 1) which is an additional +7 to open lock and disable device.

Also, you will want to take insightful reflexes to use your intel modifier for your reflex save as that will be your highest stat (and with self cast hero,haste and other buffs you can easily maintain a usable reflex saves).

[eunucorn]

A Warforge WizX/Rog2 is one of the best character builds in the game IMO, especially for duoing as you can fill a lot of different roles. You can heal yourself, traps are easy, and you can get most locks without putting much into Open Lock. Max out INT, put 6 into CON, the rest into STR and you've got a great solo/duo build. The STR will allow you to THF effectively (you'll want to mem Master's Touch or take 1 lvl of Fighter). I know you said you just want to hang back but I think you'll find melee enjoyable as well as unavoidable.

As for your friend, he should be a Warforge Barbarian or Fighter. The fighter will take less damage and be less of a drain on your SP or wands.

If you don't have access to WF and don't want to buy it (you really should, you'll have a much more enjoyable time playing), then maybe you should have your friend roll up a battlebard of some sort.

[Beld]

A, put 6 into CON,

Eunucorn meant 16 in Con

[eunucorn]

Eunucorn meant 16 in Con

Not really. I meant 6 points which on a WF nets you 16 CON. On a drow, going 16 CON costs 16 points. I could see where one could get confused though so thanks for clarifying.

[Raist.Magus]

Does an equally leveled Wizard/Rogue have a place in the game? Are there any prestige classes for him?

[tihocan]

Does an equally leveled Wizard/Rogue have a place in the game? Are there any prestige classes for him?

There are no prestige classes in DDO, only prestige enhancements, that are typically taken at levels 6, 12 and 18 in a class. So a 10/10 could get tiers 1 of two prestige lines, while a 12+/6+ could get a tier 2 and a tier 1.

You can make a 10/10 work somehow but it'll be sub-optimal (and you should forget about using your wizard spells offensively at higher levels).

[Hobgoblin]

Does an equally leveled Wizard/Rogue have a place in the game? Are there any prestige classes for him?

imho no point in going more then 2 rogue. You will have all the nuking power of a wizard, evasion and cant get almost everytrap in the game.

[Raist.Magus]

Thanks for all the info guys!

Some pen and paper habits are hard to overcome but i'll do my best to ignore them (like playing a stupid(Wis), ugly(Cha), heavy-built(Con) female wizard). Anyway I'm looking for a nice old school dnd experience, not a powergaming and perfectly spec-ed hero. Are there any "RP" servers? If not, are there any people playing like this?

Thanks again everyone!

[tihocan]

Thanks for all the info guys!

Some pen and paper habits are hard to overcome but i'll do my best to ignore them (like playing a stupid(Wis), ugly(Cha), heavy-built(Con) female wizard). Anyway I'm looking for a nice old school dnd experience, not a powergaming and perfectly spec-ed hero. Are there any "RP" servers? If not, are there any people playing like this?

Thanks again everyone!

There's no official RP server. There are RPers on all servers, but you usually need to actively look for them. Thelanis is known to have a number of RP guilds and events.

[sephiroth1084]

You can definitely get traps and locks with just a 2 level rogue splash on a wizard, and such a character can be a lot of fun!

In my case, I went with a warforged version, with a level of rogue at 1st for the skills, and then the second level at 9th so as not to delay acquiring Wall of Fire (the most powerful and useful spell a wizard will get for most of the game) any longer. You could take Rog 2 earlier depending upon what you're doing, your playstyle and what your friend is playing.

What is your friend playing? Knowing that will also help everyone in giving you advice. For instance, if they are playing a character with sneaking ability, it would probably be worth investing points in Hide and Move Silently, and possibly starting with a little Dex.

A few things to keep in mind in regards to PnP vs. DDO:
-No prestige classes here at all. Instead, we have prestige enhancements which serve to specialize a class a little bit, but comes in addition to the class' usual benefits, rather than replacing class levels.

-Taking many levels out of a caster is almost always a pretty poor idea (this is true in PnP as well, but it's a bit easier to make such a character viable). Definitely would never go with anything close to an even split, as you just loose too much of your casting ability to very little gain.

-Con really is much more important on a caster in DDO than it is in PnP (and it's fairly important there as well), Dex is completely unimportant unless you want to be sneaking (and then I'd not start with more than 12 or 14) and Cha and Str are mostly dump stats. A starting 10 or 12 Str can be useful for early level meleeing and to avoid becoming helpless due to having your Str damaged or penalized (Ray of Enfeeblement, poisons, diseases...).You can pick up the feat Insightful Reflexes to add your Int to your Reflex saves, which will dovetail nicely with Evasion.

-With your high Int, you can get by with half ranks in Search and Disable so long as you're keeping up to date with items that enhance those skills: essentially, every odd level you should be trying to obtain a new set of Spot, Search and Disable items (I recommend getting them all on goggles--leave Spot on most of the time, switch to Search when you notice danger, switch to Disable after you have searched out the control box).Since you are new to the game, you should try to keep Spot maxed out. Open locks can suffer a bit as well, since you can rely on your d20 roll to make up some of the difference as there is no penalty for failing to unlock something and you can therefore just keep rolling until you get high enough.

-You need to have Thieves' Tools on you in order to disable traps and pick locks. Keep an eye out for better than normal tools, which will grant you a bonus on these skills when you use them (won't appear on character sheet). You can also check the auction house for cheap +5 tools (+7 to your skills).

-If you do go the stealth route, Invisibility scrolls, Melf's Acid Arrow, and scrolls of Summon Monster I are all very useful.

[Raist.Magus]

^

Nice comparison (pen and paper vs ddo)

My friend's character is under consideration, he'd like a fighter/cleric thing. If he goes plain fighter will we be able to get through the game with no healer? If he goes pure cleric, will we be able to fight efficiently? Any interesting multiclassing options for cleric and for fighter?

*WF and FS are out of the question for the time being.

[tihocan]

^

Nice comparison (pen and paper vs ddo)

My friend's character is under consideration, he'd like a fighter/cleric thing. If he goes plain fighter will we be able to get through the game with no healer? If he goes pure cleric, will we be able to fight efficiently? Any interesting multiclassing options for cleric and for fighter?

*WF and FS are out of the question for the time being.

Better not go plain fighter then. Although you can heal through UMD, this is going to be quite expensive for new players. A cleric who can fight would probably work better (something like the Warpriest of Siberys from this thread, possibly even more geared towards melee, i.e. with Str as main stat instead of Wis, since the Wizard can take care of offensive casting). A warchanter would work too.

[unbongwah]

If you both have Warforged, I think a WF rogue 2 / wizard 18 like this build plus a WF melee DPS build is a good duo. The former provides trap skills, buffs, repairs, and eventually magic DPS; the latter provides most of the killing.

[Ybbald]

-If you do go the stealth route, Invisibility scrolls, Melf's Acid Arrow, and scrolls of Summon Monster I are all very useful.

How would melfs acid arrow help?

[sephiroth1084]

How would melfs acid arrow help?

First of all, it is incredibly mana efficient in general, and very underused. More specifically, though, if you're a stealthy caster, you can tag something with a Melf's from far away (behind cover), hit yourself with Invis, break line of sight and sneak. Then, you just wait for the monster to melt.

If you search for Ghoste's shadowmage threads, he has a video of him soloing Redwillow's on-level using this tactic to get through the quest only killing the bosses that are required to complete the quest and nothing else. It takes some practice, skill, and a little bit of luck, but it's doable, and fun.

[Raist.Magus]

Is it worthwhile to play a stealth duo? (Eg Ranger and Wiz/Rog)

Don't you miss a lot of loot/xp if you avoid some encounters?

[tihocan]

Is it worthwhile to play a stealth duo? (Eg Ranger and Wiz/Rog)

Don't you miss a lot of loot/xp if you avoid some encounters?

If you do it right you get more XP/min, because skipping encounters is faster.
Loot-wise, yes you can miss some chests. How big of a deal it is depends on how much you value loot.

Note that efficient stealth play requires some practice and good understanding of the game/AI/stealth mechanics. You may struggle a bit while you learn all of this (there may be guides around in the forums with stealth tips).

[unbongwah]

Is it worthwhile to play a stealth duo? (Eg Ranger and Wiz/Rog)

A rogue / wizard won't have enough skill points to maintain stealth & trap skills; a rogue / bard would, though, I think.

A friend and I have experimented with stealth duos before; they can be fun, but I dunno if I would call them more effective or anything like that. Just a different gameplay style, that's all.

Don't you miss a lot of loot/xp if you avoid some encounters?

Yes and no: you miss out on loot and bonus XP by not killing everything; but AFAICT power-leveling is mostly about finishing quests as quickly as possible to keep your average XP-per-minute as high as possible. So it depends on what your priorities are - and what you think is most fun, of course.

[Stonen]

You said you wanted to standing in the back but that is not so easy. Back and frontline are not set, like in dnd and other mmo's. Therefore you need con/hp and self sufficiency. Especially while duoing. Holding aggro is harder and some mobs are bound to come after you. Be prepared to take them at yourself.