WF THF Kensai - 2 versions (to UMD or not?)

[GlassJaw]

Hi everyone. I’ve been kicking around a couple of concepts for a WF THF Kensai. I haven’t played a melee-based WF before and haven’t played a THF-focused melee character either so I figured this would be a good way to kill two birds with one stone once I unlock 1750.

Build criteria:
Must be WF.
Prefer not to multiclass to get Fighter capstone.
Primary fighting style will be THF.
Will focus on bludgeoning weapons.
Kensai signature weapon will be the maul.
Ability to tank when needed.

After doing some research, I’ve narrowed it down to 2 builds. The only real difference is that one is focused on UMD and the other doesn’t but that changes the builds a LOT.

I’m basically looking to get some opinions on which build would be more viable and if I made any glaring mistakes in either of the builds. Thanks!

Version 1 (no UMD):

Str 17 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 18
Dex 11 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 12
Con 17 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 18
Int 13 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 14
Wis 10
Cha 6

Skills:

Max Balance
Max Intimidate
Tumble: 2 ranks
Rest in Jump and Repair

Feats (18 total):

1. Adamantine Body
2. Weapon Focus (bludgeoning)
3. Greater Weapon Focus
4. Superior Weapon Focus
5. Weapon Specialization
6. Greater Weapon Specialization
7. Two-Handed Fighting
8. Improved Two-Handed Fighting
9. Greater Two-Handed Fighting
10. Improved Critical
11. Power Attack
12. Stunning Blow
13. Toughness

That leaves 5 slots left. Here are some ideas I had.

Combat Expertise (for when I need to tank)
Improved Trip (might as well take if I have CE)
Shield Mastery (for when I need to tank)
Improved Shield Mastery (for when I need to tank)
Iron Will (boost Will save)
Bullheaded (boost Will save and Intimidate)
Cleave + Great Cleave (for grabbing aggro, although not sure I’ll need this with all the THF feats and WF enhancements)
Improved DR (how many feats and enhancements do you need before it becomes worthwhile?)

I would probably lean towards CE, Shield Mastery, Imp ShM, Imp Trip, and Iron Will.

Pros:
High Str and Con.
Great versatility in feat selection.
Good tanking ability, especially with Combat Expertise and Shield Mastery feats.

Cons:
Average-to-Low Will save.
Not very self-sufficient. Relies on pots for self-healing.

Version 2 (with UMD):

Str 17 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 18
Dex 11 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 12
Con 13 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 14
Int 13 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 14
Wis 6
Cha 13 (+1 tome at 1st level) = 14

Skills:

Max Balance
Max Intimidate
Max UMD
Tumble: 2 ranks
Rest in Jump

Feats (18 total):

1. Adamantine Body
2. Weapon Focus (bludgeoning)
3. Greater Weapon Focus
4. Superior Weapon Focus
5. Weapon Specialization
6. Greater Weapon Specialization
7. Two-Handed Fighting
8. Improved Two-Handed Fighting
9. Greater Two-Handed Fighting
10. Improved Critical
11. Power Attack
12. Stunning Blow
13. Toughness
14. Skill Focus (UMD)
15. Force of Personality
16. Iron Will

That leaves 2 feat slots. See above for possible options. Would lean towards the shield mastery feats or CE + Imp Trip.

Pros:
Very self-sufficient and self-healing with UMD.
Can use race-restricted items.
Much-improved Will save with high Cha, Force of Personality and Iron Will.
Cha item improves Will save, UMD, and Intim.

Cons:
Very stat- and feat-intensive.
UMD requires heavy investment to be useful.
Weaker tanking ability with lower hit points and potential lack of CE and shield mastery feats.

[marshm1972]

I am building a WF THF Kensai myself -a 28pt built similar to your build 1 with no UMD.

My thoughts - and this is strictly my opinion.

Never take a 6 Wis, even if you are warforged. You are still liable to get Feared, Danced, Cursed, to name a few miseys. Will Saves for Fighters are a fighters bane. You will want at least a 8, and a 10+ as soon as you can.

I'd drop the Con to 16 and bring the Wis up to 8. And I would strongly recommend Iron Will, Bullheaded and even lightning reflexes if traps+fireballs start to become a problem.


Stunning Blow AND Improved Trip is abit unnecessary, I'd Pick one. I am going with Stunning because I am pure DPS and not worrying about CE and therefore I can arrage my stats for a 18 STR.

Do you need a 14 INT? There are only 3 Skills for a WF fighter worth anything: Jump, Ralance and Repair. I'd bring that to 12 (and use your +1 tome = 13) and use that extra point elsewhere. Either WIS or DEX. If you brought your Wis to 8 as I stated you can use the spare point from Int and a +1 tome and get a 10 WIS.

Speaking of DEX, if you can yourself to a 13 DEX you can get Dodge (+1 AC), Mobility (which sucks, but its required), and Spring attack -which eliminates the -4 attack roll when attacking when moving, useful for running down fleeing monsters. Since you already have CE you can even qualify for Whirlwind -although the reports are the WW isnt so great. I have never used it myself. But its an option at least.

If I were you I would decide if I am going to tank or DPS from the outset. If you try both you only be "OK" at both. That doesnt mean you should bring a shield, but I wouldnt waste feats trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. Thats my opinion. Along these lines, instead of CE and Shield Mastery you might want to consider some extra ranks in improved DR, or toughness, focusing on aborbing blows rather than dodging them. At the End Game you are going to need a very high AC around 50, I personally think WF are better at killing stuff myself.

[Roman]

Never take a 6 Wis, even if you are warforged. You are still liable to get Feared, Danced, Cursed, to name a few miseys. Will Saves for Fighters are a fighters bane. You will want at least a 8, and a 10+ as soon as you can.

Agree.

There are only 3 Skills for a WF fighter worth anything: Jump, Ralance and Repair.

Repair? unless something has changed, the formula, according to the wiki, should still be 10 + 3 * (maximum score in repair of a nearby party member). So even with a repair skill of 20 ranks + 15 item = 35 your looking at

10 + 3 * (35) = 115 hp.

a fighter at level 20 will be pushing 600+ hp. So I don't see the repair skill being very useful. Better off with UMD or Tumble.

Even on my warforged with 6 charisma I am able to UMD fireshield and restoration scrolls with 70% success. And I could hit 90% if I crafted a GS cha skill item. So UMD is still useful even with low charisma and cross class.

[GlassJaw]

Never take a 6 Wis, even if you are warforged. You are still liable to get Feared, Danced, Cursed, to name a few miseys. Will Saves for Fighters are a fighters bane. You will want at least a 8, and a 10+ as soon as you can.

That version uses Force of Personality for Will saves (which lets you use your Cha mod instead of Wis for Will saves) so Wisdom isn't needed.

Do you need a 14 INT? There are only 3 Skills for a WF fighter worth anything: Jump, Ralance and Repair. I'd bring that to 12 (and use your +1 tome = 13) and use that extra point elsewhere. Either WIS or DEX. If you brought your Wis to 8 as I stated you can use the spare point from Int and a +1 tome and get a 10 WIS.

You forgot Intimidate. Repair? Marginal at best.

Speaking of DEX, if you can yourself to a 13 DEX you can get Dodge (+1 AC), Mobility (which sucks, but its required), and Spring attack -which eliminates the -4 attack roll when attacking when moving, useful for running down fleeing monsters. Since you already have CE you can even qualify for Whirlwind -although the reports are the WW isnt so great. I have never used it myself. But its an option at least.

I'm confident that with the 3 Weapon Focus feats and the Kensai's attack bonuses, I should be able to run around with Power Attack and still be able to hit things without Spring Attack.

Along these lines, instead of CE and Shield Mastery you might want to consider some extra ranks in improved DR, or toughness, focusing on aborbing blows rather than dodging them. At the End Game you are going to need a very high AC around 50, I personally think WF are better at killing stuff myself.

Good advice. If I dropped those feats, I'd be able to take Cleave, Great Cleave, and maybe Improved DR (maybe twice) or Lightning Reflexes.

[marshm1972]

GlassJaw

Again this is strictly my opinion.

I think the problem is you are trying to cover too much base with your build. The fact you are a THF lends itself to DPS not tanking. Thats why I didnt recommend a high CHR/Initmidate/FOP/or any of the shield feats. I think those are great ideas for a Stawert Defender Inmidatank but no so much for a THF Kensai. If you are really insistant on keeping the Kensai-Tank role, then consider a switch from THF to S+B, you wont do quite as much damage, but you'll save 3 feats (well two, if you take a exotic weapon like klopesh) and you'll still profit from all your abilities all the time.

I consider your build abit like a more generalist-less squishy Barbarian. Personally, I wouldn't be trying pull additional aggro as a THF, the loss of a shield and a low Dex means you are just not going to have the very high AC needed at endgame. And if you do switch to a S+B on the fly you will lose much of your offensive feats and enchancements.

What I am trying to say is trying to be a Tank and DPS means you'll be mediocre at both. Pick one and stick to it. If you want to Tank best be a S+B defender, if you want to deal massive DPS stay THF Kensai. I tried doing something like this with my very first toon, he was a dwarven fighter in DDO Europe -it didnt turn out that well because he couldnt excel at any one thing, and by the endgame he 'meh' at everything.

For skills. I left out Intimdate for the reason I stated above, I dont find it conductive to the role you are playing. As for Tumble, personally I never use it, but feel free to add a point or two there if you want. But I wouldnt put anymore than 1 or 2.

Jump and Balance are definatly the priority although I would cap them at 15 or 5 or so respecfully. Personally I find repair useful on WF. Why? We all know that WF devine healing sucks, so we are going to have to find alternative methods to heal. I put 8 points into repair on a early build (and its a class skill to boot so getting it up is easy) and noticed a 15-20% increase from shrines by lvl 9. So every little bit helps. My CHR is too low for UMD which is why I didnt bother. If you can get a 8-10 CHT then I'd say go for it, but again this better suits a Tank, as you are going to want the CHR for Initmidate anyway. I wouldnt sacrifice DPS (meaning STR,CON,DEX) just for CHR/intimidate/UMD, at least not on a 28 point build with no +2 tomes.

I just switched from DDO Europe to DDO:EU, so unfortuntaly I am starting from scratch again. If I had a 32 point build and a extra +2 CHR Tome lying around I might reconsider pumping CHR and UMD.

[GlassJaw]

Great stuff marsh, thanks.

What about focusing on strictly THF DPS and then taking the Improved DR feat (more than once?) and the WF DR enhancements to off-set AC and lack of tanking ability?

[coolpenguin410]

Great stuff marsh, thanks.

What about focusing on strictly THF DPS and then taking the Improved DR feat (more than once?) and the WF DR enhancements to off-set AC and lack of tanking ability?

My WF fighter is a Stalwart Defender. He's sitting on DR 10/adamantine from feats and enhancements. Not including the body feat, that's 5 feats dedicated to Improved Damage Reduction which is a huge sacrifice, but it works on my build. That was a specific goal I had in mind when designing the character and mostly adds flavor or convenience when running low level stuff. (However, it's great when I grab aggro and turtle up for some tank-and-spank.) I don't really recomend it for a DPS build (which is what Kensai is). If you really want some DR, just spend the enhancements on it, don't burn the feats. That would land DR 5/Adamantine which should suffice for your build. However, from what I understand, Kensai are usually enhancement-starved, so that may not be a good idea either.

Unless you have feats to burn and nothing else to spend them on (not likely, even for a fighter), I wouldn't do it. More likely, you're better off picking up toughness multiple times.

[marshm1972]

Great stuff marsh, thanks.

What about focusing on strictly THF DPS and then taking the Improved DR feat (more than once?) and the WF DR enhancements to off-set AC and lack of tanking ability?

Thats what I am doing, though I would focus on your DPS Feats first. Coolpenguin caution is noted but I think hes got it reversed. A Pure Fighter should have 18 Feats, if you subtract all the DPS Feats, toughness, stunning blow, Adamantine Body and Iron Will by my math you should have 4 feats to burn. 3 if you decide to take Lighning reflexes. My toon already has -3DR/Adamentine (2 From Ada Body Feat, +1 from Enchancement) at level 6. So If 3-4 feats and the next two DR enchancements I can get it to -8/-9 DR.

Enchancements however are tricky because kensai suck many of them up. So either you'll have to skip the last DR enchancement or sacrifice something else to get it. I am still struggling with what to do.

[coolpenguin410]

Thats what I am doing, though I would focus on your DPS Feats first. Coolpenguin caution is noted but I think hes got it reversed. A Pure Fighter should have 18 Feats, if you subtract all the DPS Feats, toughness, stunning blow, Adamantine Body and Iron Will by my math you should have 4 feats to burn. 3 if you decide to take Lighning reflexes. My toon already has -3DR/Adamentine (2 From Ada Body Feat, +1 from Enchancement) at level 6. So If 3-4 feats and the next two DR enchancements I can get it to -8/-9 DR.

Enchancements however are tricky because kensai suck many of them up. So either you'll have to skip the last DR enchancement or sacrifice something else to get it. I am still struggling with what to do.

Well, just remember, you can only take the Improved DR feats as your regular character feats. They don't count as combat feats for fighter. That means things like toughness, lightning reflexes, bull headed are competing for the same spots.

My recommendation is to stop at DR 5/Adamantine. It's a nice round number and would only cost you 1 DR feat and 2 enhancements (or vice-versa). You don't sacrifice much, if any, of your DPS potential and still get a decent amount of protection. I could afford to go all the way up to 10 because I was focusing on defense and I wanted to have a permanent stone skin. You won't have that kind of luxury.