Paladin questions

[Ericnox]

Alright, I am recently returning to DDO, so a lot of what I know is kinda useless at times.

I was told that Two Handed Weapon fighting Smiter paladins have become very gimp. Is this true or are they still tough as nails?

I have a level 9 pure paladin, with all his gear and no timed casts on him he is at 21, 13, 16, 10, 11, 18. His stat boosts are all going into str, and he even has the +1 str bonus from being human. When I crit with an exalted smite I have been hitting upwards of 120, my record being on a CE mob with a +3 true law maul of maiming for 200+.

I'm planning on getting the entire 2hw chain, along with a nice greensteel weapon later, but should I continue on this path or am I playing something that will be gimped in the long run?

tl;dr: Are smiting paladins gimp? Y/N

[Junts]

This build with knight of the chalice will be a quite acceptable endgame dps dealer, but the nature of all the paladin damage enhancers (per-hit damage on divine might and knight of the chalice, per-animation on divine sac and smite) do mean that two weapon fighting is a superior dps style for paladins (for perspective, if you smite evil with two weapon fighting .. you will get 2 smites for the price of 1). Further, two weapon styles favor weapons with better crit powers (eg, dual khopeshes) which will get more from smite than any other weapon.

However, those builds are very hard to build, very tome dependent and tough to equip. Your build that you have will not be the best endgame dps character on ddo, but it will be just fine at it.

I strongly advise a falchion as your weapon of choice, by the way, as the added crit range combined with exalted smites will get the most out of smite evil of any two-handed weapon.


The other advantage held by two weapon fighting paladins is that you can use the holy sword spell to create all of their best dps/smite evil options (khopesh, rapier and scimitar), whereas two handed is confined to the terrible maul and greatsword. The weapons made by holy sword are 98% as effective as the mineral2 shroud weapon, and so a twf dps paladin has the outstanding luxury of not having to make a shroud weapon if it doesn't want to.

[Ericnox]

Thank you for that. Right now I am staying away from twf paladins due to how I am made up and lacking a good dex to make use of twf. When I get 32 points however, that is going to change.

[Junts]

Thank you for that. Right now I am staying away from twf paladins due to how I am made up and lacking a good dex to make use of twf. When I get 32 points however, that is going to change.

Yep thats exactly what I would do if I were in your shoes; the twf variation is significantly stronger but really needs 32 points .. or, in fact, they are very easy to make with drow, as they require high dex and high charisma. You can get superior starting stats to a 32 pt paladin with drow if you can handle having only 12 con to start, which a paladin can, indeed, probably handle.

To pull it off, though, you'll need access to some +2 tomes (specifically dexterity) and so its probably wise to wait to make it until you can give it the proper items.

[Angelus_dead]

Further, two weapon styles favor weapons with better crit powers (eg, dual khopeshes) which will get more from smite than any other weapon.

No. When Exalted Smite is giving you +2 to crit multiplier and range, a Falchion with 14-20/x4 has a 2.0 Critical Power, better than a Khopesh with 16-20/x5 and 1.95 CP.

Similarly, the bonus from Divine Sacrifice improves Falch/Kukri more than it does Khopesh.

[Junts]

No. When Exalted Smite is giving you +2 to crit multiplier and range, a Falchion with 14-20/x4 has a 2.0 Critical Power, better than a Khopesh with 16-20/x5 and 1.95 CP.

Similarly, the bonus from Divine Sacrifice improves Falch/Kukri more than it does Khopesh.

I agree, but a .05 difference in crit power can't begin to compete with all the other advantages of two weapon (getting 2 smites per use .. say, do you think if you used a smite evil on the animation where the 5th free offhand attack is, you could get 3?), or, for that matter, with the basic crit power of the khopesh for raw dps purposes.

Bu

[Angelus_dead]

I agree, but a .05 difference in crit power can't begin to compete with all the other advantages of two weapon

A two weapon guy can use kukris to get better Smites and DS than khopesh. In fact, a weak case could be made that if you happen to have kukris anyhow, and you'd like to kill a certain mob on your very first attack, then switching to them instead of khopesh gives you a greater chance of OTOH.

say, do you think if you used a smite evil on the animation where the 5th free offhand attack is, you could get 3?)

My tests show that other melee special attacks are tripled if you do it on that swing.

[Junts]

A two weapon guy can use kukris to get better Smites and DS than khopesh. In fact, a weak case could be made that if you happen to have kukris anyhow, and you'd like to kill a certain mob on your very first attack, then switching to them instead of khopesh gives you a greater chance of OTOH.


My tests show that other melee special attacks are tripled if you do it on that swing.

I suspeccted as much from dpsing with my monk but its so insanely hard to tell with how staggered behind the combat text is.

I do think its really unfair to thf paladins that they have such bad holy sword options and twf paladins get all the best dps weapon options via holy sword: khopesh, scimitar (elf), rapier (drow), even dwarven axe.

[sephiroth1084]

I do think its really unfair to thf paladins that they have such bad holy sword options and twf paladins get all the best dps weapon options via holy sword: khopesh, scimitar (elf), rapier (drow), even dwarven axe.

Agreed! Where are the greataxe and falchion two handers?!

On a slightly different note, I'd really like to see Turbine remove the extra activation of special attacks on the TWF hooks. TWF has enough of an advantage without also gaining 2x (or 3x) the benefit of special attacks.

[Junts]

I'd agree .. the special attacks should cause an extra hook of their own to be added, causing them to be an actual free attack instead of an autoattack swing with the added benefits.

[Ericnox]

Popping this back up because I have more questions.

Does cleave/great cleave hit with both weapons when using TWF? I made a drow paladin and so far I am noticing a large increase in the over DPS for that level.

My idea was to go 10 paladin/10 fighter for feats, the +3 to str/cha and the same level of HP, this is on both my THW paladin and my TWF paladin. Is this a good idea? Yes or no?

[Vormaerin]

10/10 is generally a bad split. You are much better off going with 12/8 (paladin/fighter or fighter/paladin) or, even better, 14/6 Paladin/Fighter.

This is because lvl 12 gives the 2nd tier of PrEs and lvl 11 is where paladins get lvl 3 spells. The 14/6 option works even better, because you get lvl 4 paladin spells (like Zeal) while still keeping 4 bonus feats and access to Tier 1 fighter PrEs.

[Ericnox]

10/10 is generally a bad split. You are much better off going with 12/8 (paladin/fighter or fighter/paladin) or, even better, 14/6 Paladin/Fighter.

This is because lvl 12 gives the 2nd tier of PrEs and lvl 11 is where paladins get lvl 3 spells. The 14/6 option works even better, because you get lvl 4 paladin spells (like Zeal) while still keeping 4 bonus feats and access to Tier 1 fighter PrEs.

While that would we awesome, I only have a 10 wisdom, 11 with my trinket, and I'm not going to keep a wis tome over someone else who can use it more then me (See monk, cleric, FvS if they use wis).

As for the PrE's the only one I really want Knight of the Chalice. Its the only real good one personally. Then Kensei is is ok, but I don't know what kind of weapon I am going to make in terms of greensteel... So yeah...

[Vormaerin]

You will have to actively work to avoid getting a +4 Wisdom item by the time you are 14 paladin with this build. And a 14 Wisdom is all you need to cast lvl 4 spells. You won't have a lot of spell points innately, so you'll have to rely on +power items or potions to keep Zeal up as much as you want. But there's certainly no reason a 10 wisdom will be a problem. And the kensai signature weapon is just an enhancement, so you can change that as needed.

[Angelus_dead]

You will have to actively work to avoid getting a +4 Wisdom item by the time you are 14 paladin with this build. And a 14 Wisdom is all you need to cast lvl 4 spells.

Actually it just takes a wis2 item, then prepare Owl's Wisdom as a lev2 spell, and use it to reach 14 and cast other spells (without using an item slot)

[Ericnox]

So... I got the DDO character planner... After a few tries I got used to it and started to set up my toon. Please, ignore the noob errors I made at lower levels for my skills ><... That being said, yes, I am working on getting a maul, seeing as I had my heart set on it anyways. If I can't get a maul then I hit myself up for a greatsword. And please forgive the wall of text that is the enhancements at the bottom. Is something like that what you are thinking? and yes, I do use redemption a lot it feels.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Ericnox Shattersoul
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(6 Fighter \ 14 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 260
Spell Points: 185 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             14                    18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               0                     0
Bluff                 2.5                   5.5
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             6                    22.5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3.5                   8.5
Heal                  4                     9
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            2                    19
Jump                  3                     7
Listen                0                     0
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     0
Spot                  0                     0
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   7

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Slicing Blow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I
Enhancement: Silver Flame Exorcism
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Kensei Maul Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption I
Enhancement: Paladin Heal I
Enhancement: Paladin Heal II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I

[Junts]

least sentinel, power critical and slicing blow are all terrible feats .. my guess is that you want improved critical: slashing, as power critical is wholly worthless despite its fancy sound

Many players with nwn experience are mislead by power critical and the way it sounds like devastating/terrifying critical from that game.

[Vormaerin]

Since you have your heart set on a maul, we'll leave that alone. Blunt weapons are generally poor for paladins because they have low crit values. Falchion and slashing is the usual preference for 2hf paladins.

If you want a clicky special attack, I'd take Stunning Blow over Slicing Blow. Slicing blow does some extra damage, but Stunning Blow will disable enemy spellcasters pretty reliably. And blunt weapons can get a mod that enhances Stunning Blow DCs by up to +10. You also have some Fighter Tactics enhancements you could consider and one of the features of Kensai is enhancing Trip and Stunning Blow DCs, IIRC.

Power Critical is unlikely to be of any help to you (especially with Critical Accuracy II enhancement already), but you'll be able to figure out if that's true long before you get to lvl 20, so no worries there. I don't agree that the Sentinel Dragonmark is terrible, but its not great either. You'll probably find items that render it moot in your teens, as the Shield of Faith effect doesn't stack with +Protection items. It'll be handy for a bunch of levels, then become increasingly marginal.

Cleave isn't bad, if you don't mind the constant clicking, but Great Cleave's animation tends to outweigh the benefits. And it becomes increasingly difficult to use Cleave and Great Cleave and your other special attacks often enough to get full benefit from all of them. You are already doing some AoE damage just by virtue of your THF fighting feats.

[Ericnox]

*Necro bump*

So go for a slashing weapon of some type then? Hmmm.. Ok. I have a nice greatsword right now, and I broke my smite record.

What would you recommend to replace some of the lesser feats? And right now, cleave has proven useful in the Tempest Spine Raid. I know, 1337 raid right there :P

But any ideas or suggestions are welcome.