List of Monk finishing move bugs

[Monkey_Archer]

Karmic Strike
- when used unarmed, no attack is made at all, no damage, nothing... you are left helpless for 3 seconds (not in the description) and the next attack against you automatically hits regardless of ac (also not in the description) and automatically crits
- when used with a weapon your next attack does auto-crit properly, but the next attack against you does not automatically crit as it should

Lost finishers
- if you dont have enough ki when you click a finisher, the finisher is lost
- often when finishers are used rapidly (ki strike, ki strike, ki strike, finisher, ki strike, ki strike, ki strike, finisher) the second finisher is lost for no reason
- if you are not facing your target when using Breath of the Fire dragon, the finisher is not performed and lost.
-while madstone raged, some finishers cannot be performed, and are lost if you try.

[Aerendil]

Karmic Strike
- when used with a weapon your next attack does auto-crit properly, but the next attack against you does not automatically crit as it should There is a window here for having a chance to be auto-crit, can you confirm you were hit within that window? I think it's 3sec or so? So if you avoid any attacks in the next 3 sec, it's working normally.

Lost finishers
- if you dont have enough ki when you click a finisher, the finisher is lost Agreed, very annoying. In the heat of battle, I don't always glance at my ki bar to ensure I have 10+ kit to fire off a Dance of the Clouds or something. Frustrating :/
- often when finishers are used rapidly (ki strike, ki strike, ki strike, finisher, ki strike, ki strike, ki strike, finisher) the second finisher is lost for no reason Can you confirm that the timer is ready for the finisher to fire? For example, if I do light-light-light for Healing Ki, if I try to fire the finisher before my ki attacks have "recharged", it won't fire. It's not that, correct? Just checking

Really, the not enough ki = finishing move lost, and having to wait for my ki attacks to recharge before I can use a finisher, are my two biggest gripes with finishers. Not sure if I'd call them bugs or not - just really annoying implementation at times. Haven't noticed any other issues, although I'm light path. I think dark is a little more buggy than light :/
I'll toy around with the pure elemental finishers this weekend to test for bugs. I usually don't use those ones too often, mainly because anything they're worth using on is either immune, or dead too quickly for debuffs to matter :/

[Monkey_Archer]

There is a window here for having a chance to be auto-crit, can you confirm you were hit within that window? I think it's 3sec or so? So if you avoid any attacks in the next 3 sec, it's working normally.

Not completely sure, the karmic strike Icon does not apear on the buff list... i think i do remeber geting auto crit by the reaver occasionally... hard to tell though...

Can you confirm that the timer is ready for the finisher to fire? For example, if I do light-light-light for Healing Ki, if I try to fire the finisher before my ki attacks have "recharged", it won't fire. It's not that, correct? Just checking

no, its not that...
I often spam dark finishers like blinding strike (air, dark, air) and if i try to use it twice in a row, the first one works properly, but the second is often lost for no reason.

[Aerendil]

Not completely sure, the karmic strike Icon does not apear on the buff list... i think i do remeber geting auto crit by the reaver occasionally... hard to tell though...

Interesting idea there. A flashing karmic strike icon would definitely help out here, but whether or not it's working as intended could be a curious question. I'm also wondering if fortification is factoring in here when perhaps it shouldn't.

no, its not that...
I often spam dark finishers like blinding strike (air, dark, air) and if i try to use it twice in a row, the first one works properly, but the second is often lost for no reason.

Never really noticed that with the light finishers, but I'll check it out tonight for sure. Again, it could just be a weird dark side issue. You guys have your fair share there, I think. But if I spot any light ones doing this I'll post.

[Monkey_Archer]

Never really noticed that with the light finishers, but I'll check it out tonight for sure. Again, it could just be a weird dark side issue. You guys have your fair share there, I think. But if I spot any light ones doing this I'll post.

i think the light finishers will have the same problem, but since they are buffs you arent using them every 5 seconds like the dark ones

[Strakeln]

Boy, I sure am glad they delayed the monk release like they did so they could make sure they "got it right".

Is it really at all unreasonable to expect them to fix things like Karmic Strike within 1.5 years of releasing the class?

...apparently...

[Taelnia]

I have noticed on my light side monk that there are times when I will go to hit a buff with plenty of ki and it won't go off. In one situation I'll receive an error message along the lines of "You have missed the opportunity to perform this move" (something like that, it's from memory.) Other times I have also noticed that sometimes the light side buffs will fail to go off if the mob that I am targeting moves behind me suddenly while the buff is executing yielding an error message stating I must face the target. In both cases the finisher move is lost, even when I have plenty of ki stored.

The first case may be related to trying to perform the finisher too quickly before the basic moves have finished recharging. The second doesn't make sense to me, unless the finisher move counts as an attack itself(even though it's primarily a buff) and the buff only succeeds if the attack goes off (whether it hits anything or not). In either case however, it is quite annoying.

[Angelus_dead]

Underlying design bug for all offensive finishers:
The only monsters likely to be alive long enough for a finisher debuff to be helpful are ones who are immune to the effect.

PS. Karmic Strike is not like the other offensive finishers, and has a separate design flaw of it's own: For a monk to get a bonus 2x crit isn't worth allowing the mob a chance of a 2x-4x crit.

[Aerendil]

Underlying design bug for all offensive finishers:
The only monsters likely to be alive long enough for a finisher debuff to be helpful are ones who are immune to the effect.

Exactly, which is why I seldom use the elemental-finishers, and focus only on the light+element buffs or spam the tier II debuff attacks :/

If were able to land a silence (via Trembling Earth) or slow (via Raging Sea) on some bosses, that would be incredible.
Of course, that could also make a fight trivial.. so it's a tough call here. But their current implementation isn't ideal, that's for sure.

[Angelus_dead]

If were able to land a silence (via Trembling Earth) or slow (via Raging Sea) on some bosses, that would be incredible.
Of course, that could also make a fight trivial.. so it's a tough call here. But their current implementation isn't ideal, that's for sure.

The obvious fix would be for the developers to add a lesser debuff that applies to bosses who are immune to the full one.

[Monkey_Archer]

Underlying design bug for all offensive finishers:
The only monsters likely to be alive long enough for a finisher debuff to be helpful are ones who are immune to the effect.

that is not really true... you assume a monk has to prep the combo on the same target as you use the finisher on.
Since when is hold person considered a debuff btw?
Step 1) kill 1 mob while prepping combo
Step 2) use hold person and kill second mob in half the time
Step 3) repeat...

PS. Karmic Strike is not like the other offensive finishers, and has a separate design flaw of it's own: For a monk to get a bonus 2x crit isn't worth allowing the mob a chance of a 2x-4x crit.

If it functions as per the desciption, it is not flawed as most monks can achive high enough ac to be resonably protected from the backlash effect.

[Angelus_dead]

that is not really true... you assume a monk has to prep the combo on the same target as you use the finisher on.

No, I specifically avoided making that mistake by using the words "be helpful" instead of "apply". Yes, you can often get offensive finishers to apply to mobs, but unless the mob was powerful enough to last a while in combat then it's not truly helpful.

And if a mob is powerful like that, then also either:
1. He is red-named and immune
2. A caster already used Energy Drain + FTS/Hold/Command/Finger before you could touch it.

The crucial reality is that when fighting a red/purple named boss, the Light monk can buff/heal his team to be more successful, but the dark monk can only add a tiny bit of DPS, and optionally cause himself to be squashed by a crit.

Since when is hold person considered a debuff btw?

CC effects are a powerful subset of debuffs. There is a continum where if a mob is debuffed enough that it can't really hurt you, it is essentially CCed.

Step 1) kill 1 mob while prepping combo
Step 2) use hold person and kill second mob in half the time
Step 3) repeat...

That doesn't avoid the inherent weakness that I referred to, because it only works around one of the two delays of offensive finishers:
1. It takes time to prepare it
2. To gain benefit from the debuff/CC, the mob must be one that was otherwise going to have kept fighting for at least several more seconds.

If it functions as per the desciption, it is not flawed as most monks can achive high enough ac to be resonably protected from the backlash effect.

No, as described it is still flawed.

For a DDO character to trade crits opportunities with a mob is a losing game, because crits are intrinsically more dangerous to a player than a monster:
1. Mobs have way more hitpoints, and boss mobs have probably at least 10x more than that.
2. Mobs can expect less healing during a fight.
3. Crittable mobs don't usually have heavy fort, but essentially all monks above a certain level do.

Just picture if a monk is there punching Horoth: The monk gets one or two extra crit occasionally- does anyone else in the party even notice? But he also gives the boss a 5%+ chance to crit him, and when that happens... he's dead, and everyone really notices.

Karmic strike has costs beyond the personal vulnerability: like all finishers, it costs Ki and time. That's especially true because it's a fire effect, and recent high-level mobs have typically had fire resistance. So instead of prepping KS, you could have been simply punching Enduring Strike and gaining DPS directly.

Add it all up, and KS isn't effective game design. It is at best a trap.

[Monkey_Archer]

No, I specifically avoided making that mistake by using the words "be helpful" instead of "apply". Yes, you can often get offensive finishers to apply to mobs, but unless the mob was powerful enough to last a while in combat then it's not truly helpful.

And if a mob is powerful like that, then also either:
1. He is red-named and immune
2. A caster already used Energy Drain + FTS/Hold/Command/Finger before you could touch it.

That is mod-8 thinking... almost nothing in the new endgame is worth the sp cost to energy drain and finger. Deathward is also more common, and many mobs are alive long enough to do significant damage. A monk can get a finisher DC much higher then any caster can with a spell.... even my balanced monk can get a 40 DC, wisdom spec monks can get upwards of 45... Being able to completly neutralize any target fairly reliably (even those high save orthons/devils) is worth alot IMO...

The crucial reality is that when fighting a red/purple named boss, the Light monk can buff/heal his team to be more successful, but the dark monk can only add a tiny bit of DPS, and optionally cause himself to be squashed by a crit.

Not to bash light monks, but usually the minor amount of healing they can do in a named fight is irrelevant, unless you have a bad healer.

That doesn't avoid the inherent weakness that I referred to, because it only works around one of the two delays of offensive finishers:
1. It takes time to prepare it
2. To gain benefit from the debuff/CC, the mob must be one that was otherwise going to have kept fighting for at least several more seconds.

that doesnt make it meaningless.... I play my dark monk with a "neutralize one, kill the other mentality"...

No, as described it is still flawed.

For a DDO character to trade crits opportunities with a mob is a losing game, because crits are intrinsically more dangerous to a player than a monster:
1. Mobs have way more hitpoints, and boss mobs have probably at least 10x more than that.
2. Mobs can expect less healing during a fight.
3. Crittable mobs don't usually have heavy fort, but essentially all monks above a certain level do.

I dont agree with that logic because its very similar to the ac vs dps argument... many builds trade alot of defense for dps... permanently...
A typical barbarian will hit twice as hard and take twice as much damage as a monk (if not more)... Is that any differnt?

Just picture if a monk is there punching Horoth: The monk gets one or two extra crit occasionally- does anyone else in the party even notice? But he also gives the boss a 5%+ chance to crit him, and when that happens... he's dead, and everyone really notices.

Karmic strike has costs beyond the personal vulnerability: like all finishers, it costs Ki and time. That's especially true because it's a fire effect, and recent high-level mobs have typically had fire resistance. So instead of prepping KS, you could have been simply punching Enduring Strike and gaining DPS directly.

Add it all up, and KS isn't effective game design. It is at best a trap.

It is a fire effect, and takes fire stikes to prep... so yes, if the target is immune to fire then its probably not worth it compared to just using other strikes.... Its only a trap if you use it incorrectly (if it wasnt already broken of course )

[Angelus_dead]

That is mod-8 thinking... almost nothing in the new endgame is worth

I disagree, but even stipulating that it's totally true, they're still bad game design.

If the features were bad from mod 5-8 and only became useful past level 16, then that's clearly not a good design, because Shavarath isn't the start of an adventuring career.

[Angelus_dead]

A typical barbarian will hit twice as hard and take twice as much damage as a monk (if not more)... Is that any differnt?

Very different, because it's inaccurate to characterize barbarians as undefended. They have a lot of hitpoints, which actually does make them survive better, even though it doesn't reduce the damage they receive.

It may help to remember that evaluating damage requires more complexity that just measuring DPS. At minimum, you need to look at consistent damage versus burst. Suppose a raid boss was altered to have 1/6rd attack rate and triple damage; his DPS went way down, but his ability to kill some player characters has increased.

[Monkey_Archer]

I disagree, but even stipulating that it's totally true, they're still bad game design.

If the features were bad from mod 5-8 and only became useful past level 16, then that's clearly not a good design, because Shavarath isn't the start of an adventuring career.

They are still useful mod 5-8 content (maybe not quite as valuable).... but if we are talking trash that was going to get fingered, then usually a QP will do the trick.

[Monkey_Archer]

Very different, because it's inaccurate to characterize barbarians as undefended. They have a lot of hitpoints, which actually does make them survive better, even though it doesn't reduce the damage they receive.

It may help to remember that evaluating damage requires more complexity that just measuring DPS. At minimum, you need to look at consistent damage versus burst. Suppose a raid boss was altered to have 1/6rd attack rate and triple damage; his DPS went way down, but his ability to kill some player characters has increased.

Raid bosses (at least the current ones) are probably the worst targets for karmic strike anyway... almost all of them are immune to fire making the dps increase very minor, and yes they can hit quite hard on crits.
While many may disagree, i still find dps vs trash to be effective, not to mention the auto banish/smite possibilites...

[Junts]

You guys are making some pretty inaccurate monk generalizations at this point.

a dps monk build is very well above average as a dps dealer as long as it's breaking dr and using wind stance; hand to hand attacking was not slowed down by the chance and a user of ultimate wind stance has an attack rate competitive with a tempest 3 ranger (~260 attacks/min at bab 19). There is no offhand strength penalty or to hit penalties of any kind, and the base damage is very high. Presuming good handwraps and a character built for dps (instead of a dex/wis based finesse monk), monk dps on targets they can bypass the dr of is excellent.

The problem right now is the damage output vs difficult dr mobs, though with the advent of ToD rings and extreme handwraps (say, a holy bust ring + holy greater evil outsider handwraps), the damage output of the higher hand to hand attacks and massive added d6s of damage surpasses what can be dealt by 2 min2 kamas fairly substantially (the break-even point is around dr 25). For stuff like shroud normal where the dr is below that, a monk with such weaponry can still provide excellent dps output. The moment they're also breaking those drs, there will no longer be any reason whatsoever to complain about monk dps .. there's already not if you are very well equipped and built for it, though.


Running with holy or shocking burst of weighted 5 handwraps and my holy burst ring, my monk leads killcounts on trash pretty routinely: autocrit and auto-sneak attack (with 1d6+19 sa damage) produces tremendous dps output for trash disposal. Last night in Tower I was having pretty significant issues not pulling aggro on the Jailor, with rangers etc competing, though of course I didn't have that problem on anything with a more complex dr.

And I'm still not using holy greater bane wraps

[Dylos_Moon]

here's another bug to add to your list

light x light x light finisher STILL DOES NOT WORK IN A GLOBE OF INVULNERABILITY![/rant]

[Angelus_dead]

You guys are making some pretty inaccurate monk generalizations at this point.

False. Actually it was you who just came in with a big reply that's quite irrelevant to the topic of whether or not offensive finishers are good game design.

Whether or not monks have adequate melee DPS is not related to that question.