Barb Question

[0bso1e7e]

Thinking about making a 2h character. I'm a bit stuck between barb and fighter. My main problem with barb is that-from what I've read-barb does better 2h damage, but all the top builds I've seen seem to focus on using their HP as a "mana pool", often times combined with warforged. I want a character I can group with, and not end up on the ignore list of every cleric I run into. As somebody who plays a cleric myself, I've run into more than one barbarian who confuses spell points with his eternal damage boosts.

If you take out the aspects of the barbarian that drain their own HP, is it still better than the fighter 2h?

[rezo]

Go with a little less con. ( don't start with a 18 or 20, go 12 or 14, maybe 16) and take healer friend if you feel you'll get less healing from a clr. I got 3 clr.'s my self and I don't mind healing a WF Barb.

[0bso1e7e]

All right, but all the same, I'd just rather not use my own health pool as a resource in that manner. Without that is the barbarian still a clear win over the fighter for 2h?

[Khurse]

Frenzy is so worth it.
I was wondering this myself, wasn't sure (at level 6) if Frenzy was worth 30+ hitpoints I'd have to give up from not having toughness, posted here, didn't get an answer so I tried it.
Only level 8 right now, but I haven't regreetted taking Frenzy for a minute.

I certainly don't use it all the time, but at any kinda of semi tough fight I hit it, and even though it's only adding 2d6, with rage, etc it really adds up. I can only imagine what the damage increase will be when I start getting improved crit and the higher frenzy bonuses.

[Arnya]

If you really want to be a barb and do DPS and mitigate damage you have to drop THF.

Swap to TWF, get Dex as high as you can - followed by Str and Con.

Take 2 levels of rogue and get evasion.

If you can spring the tomes or creation points, take 12 Cha and you will be fine with UMD

Epoxy is my 15barb/2rog WF; he can cast reconstructs on a 3 at level 16 with UMD - screw the healers!

BTW he's a grandfather Crit Rage 2 so I dunno about FB sorry



*For some reason I can't embed the SS sorry....

[malaky]

Go with a little less con. ( don't start with a 18 or 20, go 12 or 14, maybe 16) and take healer friend if you feel you'll get less healing from a clr. I got 3 clr.'s my self and I don't mind healing a WF Barb.

Definitely don't start with a 12 CON. Even 14 seems really low for a barbarian. Unless you have a very strong justification, don't start below 16 on such a character.

[toughguyjoe]

Frenzy is so worth it.
I was wondering this myself, wasn't sure (at level 6) if Frenzy was worth 30+ hitpoints I'd have to give up from not having toughness, posted here, didn't get an answer so I tried it.
Only level 8 right now, but I haven't regreetted taking Frenzy for a minute.

I certainly don't use it all the time, but at any kinda of semi tough fight I hit it, and even though it's only adding 2d6, with rage, etc it really adds up. I can only imagine what the damage increase will be when I start getting improved crit and the higher frenzy bonuses.

Your crits go through the roof. trust me on that one. Its ridiculous.

However to Obsolete:

You should go WF if you can, as their immunities are huge, especially when you can't afford to stock up on alot of the potions orhigh end tiems you will eventuallyneed to remedy those things WF are immune to.

As far as the damage, a WF Fighter can still take 3 extra power attack enhancements, which adds up to a fair bit of damage.

If its your first Melee type i would suggest a WF fighter with Adamantine Body and either THF or TWF. TWF is more expensive as you need to stock up on twice as many weapons, but it does great damage over your attack chain.

THF does alot of damage with each swing and big crits, but most people prefer TWF as the amount of attacks is greater and over all it does more damage.

[0bso1e7e]

I'm just wanting to know that if I don't use frenzy and other effects that use my HP as fuel, is the barbarian still superior to a fighter for 2h fighting?

[mediocresurgeon]

Before I offer my opinion, I would like to clear something up:
"MORE HIT POINTS" DOES NOT MEAN "HARDER TO HEAL."
What makes a character harder to heal is how quick they take damage, not how many hits they take. Having a gigantic amount of hit points is always, without exception, a good thing.

Now... about making a THF.

In DDO, it is very difficult, perhaps impossible, to make a high AC character with a 2-handed weapon. Because your armor class becomes an unreliable source of damage mitigation, you have to look other places, such as...
-Damage reduction. You might get hit every time, but you take less damage when you are hit. Equipment can usually supply damage reduction, such as the Docent of Defiance (DR 20/-, WF only), Stoneskin (DR 10/adamantine for a limited number of hits), or Bramblecasters (DR 10/- vs Piercing).
-Healing amplification. If you are easier to heal, you use fewer resources. Sources of Healing Amplification include Human racial enhancements, Hound bracers, Dragontouched armor, Finger necklace, Greensteel weapons, and Tower of Despair rings.
-Temporary HP procs. Some good examples of equipment which grant temporary HP when you are hit include the Demon Queen bracers, Concordant Opposition greensteel, Lifeshield throwing weapons, and the Tower Shield from the Hound of Xoriat.
-Kill stuff faster. The faster things die, the less damage you and your party take. Since you are going to be hit 95% of the time anyway, a good strategy to up your DPS is to load up on Guards (items which deal damage to enemies when they strike you in melee). Some good example of Guards include Demon Queen bracers, Ring of Resonance, Chord of Reprisals, and Greensteel accessories, and a solid weapon (Maelstrom lvls 2-7, Whirlwind lvls 8-11, Greensteel lvls 12+).

Between the Fighter (Kensai) and Barbarian (Frenzied Berserker), the barbarian deals more damage than the fighter (assuming exact same equipment) and has higher damage reduction. This is why people usually make a barbarian when rolling a THF character.

As for race, the most popular choices are Warforged (more immunities and higher DPS mean you kill enemies faster and consequently your party takes less damage) or human (extra feat means more character options and racial healing amp enhancements means you stretch cleric resources further). Also note that Warforged can be healed by Sorcerers (many of whom are also Warforged) and the ability to be Reconstructed is sometimes more valuable than the ability to be Healed (such as in VoD, when fighting Clay Golems, or when wearing the Dimensional Anchor Boots).

Hope that helps!

[0bso1e7e]

Thank you mediocresurgeon. I know what you mean. Thats not my question. My problem is that the main barbarian builds that I've seen all rely on using abilities that cost health. This is something I want to avoid entirely. I don't want to use my health as a fuel for anything other than how many hits I can take. So, I want to know, if you never use any ability as a barbarian that costs health, would you still be a better off as a 2h combatant, than a kensai fighter?

I know that the main strength of the barbarian is its rages and such, and frenzied berserker of course has its frenzy I believe its called that costs health, plus gives a weapon ability that further drains health. With that, I know that the barbarian is more powerful than a 2h combatant than a 2h fighter. I want to know how viable the 2h barbarian is without it.

[Arnya]

Thank you mediocresurgeon. I know what you mean. Thats not my question. My problem is that the main barbarian builds that I've seen all rely on using abilities that cost health. This is something I want to avoid entirely. I don't want to use my health as a fuel for anything other than how many hits I can take. So, I want to know, if you never use any ability as a barbarian that costs health, would you still be a better off as a 2h combatant, than a kensai fighter?

I know that the main strength of the barbarian is its rages and such, and frenzied berserker of course has its frenzy I believe its called that costs health, plus gives a weapon ability that further drains health. With that, I know that the barbarian is more powerful than a 2h combatant than a 2h fighter. I want to know how viable the 2h barbarian is without it.

My barbarian only does one thing that costs HP - get hit.

The only thing a FB will to to cost HP is hit something. The damage is vicious damage - you receive back a small amount of the damage you dish out.

It's not like you hit a special move and your HP tick down or anything - hope this clears up some confusion as posters are misinterpreting your question I think...

[mediocresurgeon]

I know that the main strength of the barbarian is its rages and such, and frenzied berserker of course has its frenzy I believe its called that costs health, plus gives a weapon ability that further drains health. With that, I know that the barbarian is more powerful than a 2h combatant than a 2h fighter. I want to know how viable the 2h barbarian is without it.

Assuming you take the Frenzied Berserker PrE on a 2HF build, you still do massive damage with just your Rage. This DPS is still much greater than anything a fighter could hope to compare to, excluding "burst" damage (such as from using Fighter Haste Boost IV for 20-second bursts of incredible DPS).

So your real question is whether a Frenzied barb who doesn't use Frenzy is worth playing. My answer: At low levels, yes. Frenzying all the time can put an incredible strain on party resources, and should only be used when needed. At high levels, any Frenzied barbarian who is worried about taking 3d3 damage per swing has bigger issues than HP loss. There is no reason not to use Frenzy at high levels, even when soloing. The amount of damage you take from activating Frenzy+Death Frenzy and swinging does not even move your health bar when you are capped/close to capped.

For THF, you need to keep in mind that the faster you kill an enemy, the less damage those enemies dish out. You will have more-intense battles (you will take damage quicker) but the enemies die faster (and do less total damage). This is one of the reasons Frenzied barbarians are popular--quicker, more intense battles means quicker quest completions and quicker loot.

[LawstCawz]

If its your first Melee type i would suggest a WF fighter with Adamantine Body and either THF or TWF. TWF is more expensive as you need to stock up on twice as many weapons, but it does great damage over your attack chain.

THF does alot of damage with each swing and big crits, but most people prefer TWF as the amount of attacks is greater and over all it does more damage.

TWF is SO mod 6. If you want to go twf, make a ranger monk. Before the new patch, THF barb was far over the top of TWF. After patch 1, we'll see, but subjectively still seems THF is superior.

[Khurse]

Err yeah.

Sorry if you mean you don't, under any circumstances want to Frenzy, don't go Barb. (Although there will be other , I don't know what in game effect they'll have) Right now Kensai will do more damage than a non Frenzied barb.
I have no idea why you would possibly be concerned about the few hit points you lose compared to the massive damage boost you gain, but if you are completely against it, and want the highest DPS possible right now (again I have no idea what the other Barb options will give) you should go Kensai.

[Mav145]

You don't just run around smacking trash mobs with frenzy on. If you hear someone in your party say, "Oh, ****." When you are fighting mobs, hit frenzy. When you see named bosses, hit frenzy. Basically, the only time that I hit frenzy is when I think that mass heals will be going off regularly. The amount of damage that you do as a frenzied berzerker is high. The amount of damage you inflict is nothing compared to even one hit by any NPC in the game. With both clickies toggled, I think that I can do a max of 9 self-damage...at most. I see crits over 400 regularly, normal swings are 50-60 damage. Clerics heal me in those situation for at minimum, 400-500 hp's. If after the fight, I have to hit a few pots, ok, no problem. Shade claims hits of 1500 but I am not at that level yet. I just picked up capstone and haven't been back out yet.

You will not miss these mana pool hit points you keep talking about. In good parties, you will beat stuff down so fast.

Good luck finding what character is right for you.