The Punisher Build

[Valezra]

THE PUNISHER
A Halfling Concept

CLASSES
15 Paladin / 5 Rogue

HITPOINTS
489 (537 raged)

STATS
Str: 30 (15 + 4 Tome + 5 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
Dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
Con: 22 (13 + 3 Tome + 6 Item)
Int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
Wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
Cha: 26 (15 + 3 Tome +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

SAVES SELF BUFFED
Fort: 35 (9 Paladin + 1 Rogue + 8 Cha + 1 Aura + 6 Con + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance +1 Halfling)
Reflex: 36 (5 Paladin + 4 Rogue +8 Cha + 1 Aura + 7 Dex + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance + 1 Haste + 1 Halfling)
Will: 29 (5 Paladin + 1 Rogue + 8 Cha + 1 Aura + 4 Wisdom + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance + 1 Halfling)

*These can be adjusted to your liking via some AP in the Paladin Aura enhancements and via Halfling Enhancements allowing the build to adapt to the possibility of 40+ saves in mod 9 easily.

FEATS
Khopesh
Toughness
TWF
ITWF
Power Attack
GTWF
Extend

AC
10 Base
2-5 Aura
5 Protection
8 Armor
1 Ritual
7 Dex
1 Haste
1 Halfling
3 Barkskin
3 Chattering
2 Chaos
4 Shield Spell
4 Insight

51-54 Self Buffed

+2 Recitation
+2 Barkskin

55-60 Easy Raid Buff

+4 Bardsong

59-64 Highest Raid Buffed.

DR
5/Evil (AngelSkin)

UMD
23 Ranks
4 Greater Hero
3 Cartouche
2 HoGF
8 Cha
6 Shroud

46 (41 in DPS mode - 100% Heal Scroll)

DPS
5 / 5 .. Weapon Modifier
5.5 / 5.5 .. Base Avg GS Khopesh
12 / 6 .. Strength
5 / 5 .. Power Attack
3 / 3 .. Divine Favor
9 / 9 .. Bard Song
6 / 6 .. Divine Might III

43.5 / 37.5 .. Avg Base Damage

148.5 / 130.5 .. Avg Base Crit (w/ Bloodstone)

32.625 / 28.125 (Weighted Base Hit)

29.7 / 26.1 (Weighted Base Crits)

62.325 / 54.225 (Total Weighted Base Damage)

Additional
6.65 / 6.65 .. Weighted Holy (2d6)
2.375 / 2.375 .. Weighted Slicing (1d4)
3.325 / 3.325 .. Weighted Acid (1d6)
2.2 / 2.2 .. Weighted Acid Crits (2d10)
2.2 / 2.2 .. Weighted Acid Crits from Blast (2d10)
.95 / .95 .. Weighted Force
.7 / .7 .. Weighted Acid on 20's (Teir III)
7.6 / 7.6 .. Weighted Tharnes SA Damage
7.6 / 7.6 .. Weighted Halfling SA Damage Enhancements
9.975 / 9.975 .. Weighted Rogue SA Damage
5.7 / 5.7 .. Weighted Rogue SA Damage Enhancements

49.275 / 49.275 Total Additional Damage

111.51 / 103.5 Total Damage

5-Minute Average DPS vs Evil Outsiders: 479.6 DPS
5-Minute Average DPS vs Evil Outsiders w/ Smites and Divine Sacrifice: 510 DPS

Smite = 500+ damage crits per hand.

ATTACK
18 Base
+ 5 Weapon
+ 12 Strength
+ 2 Competence
+ 4 Greater Hero
+ 3 Divine Favor
+ 1 Halfling
+ 4 Halfling Cunning
+ 1 Rogue SA Accuracy
-4 TWF
-5 PA
+5 Tharnes

46 Total

THOUGHTS
Pros:
1. Excellent DPS. With Smites and Divine Sacrifice this appears to be the highest non-rogue primary DPS build yet.
2. UMD for HEAL scrolls on the fly.
3. Good hitpoints.
4. Paladin buffs and immunities.
5. Evasion with high reflex save.
6. Average AC for a DPS toon.
7. High survivability via: AC, Saves, Evasion, UMD, Lay on Hands, DR, Hitpoints.
8. Flexibility. This is one of the builds strongest suits. You can respec your enhancements and go many different directions allowing the build to adapt with future content.
Cons:
1. DPS is situational for Sneak Attack. Still excellent DPS when not Sneak Attacking.
2. No room for rogue skills.

Val

[Demoyn]

1. Excellent DPS. Higher than a WF Monster... especially once the Fighter/Rogue Haste boosts both run out. Can burst a lot more damage as well via Exalted Smites.

Let's assume for a minute that your math is correct (which I find unbelievable to begin with, since even I know that the average damage of a greensteel rapier is not 5.5). Let's also assume that, in theory, you slightly out DPS the Monster (since the Monster's DPS isn't listed in Gfunk's thread with the haste boost).

Now tell me what happens when you're madstoned and your zeal runs out. Oh right, you lose the DPS argument completely.

I can assure you that defending the monster is definitely not easy for me. I hate it, in fact, but I had to come to its defense here because claiming that this is a better build is an outright lie.

[Valezra]

Let's assume for a minute that your math is correct (which I find unbelievable to begin with, since even I know that the average damage of a greensteel rapier is not 5.5).

This is a khopesh build. I showed my math and the concluding max DPS. What more do you want?

Let's also assume that, in theory, you slightly out DPS the Monster (since the Monster's DPS isn't listed in Gfunk's thread with the haste boost).

Monster DPS has been calculated out at 496 DPS by others and that is raged, madstones, hasted, and 30% Fighter Haste boost.

Now tell me what happens when you're madstoned and your zeal runs out. Oh right, you lose the DPS argument completely.

When my madstone runs out so does the Monster's. When my haste boosts run out so does his. Notice that this build only uses a 20% haste boost and the monster relies on 30% boost. When both boosts are out this will do even more damage than the Monster against 0 fort mobs.

I can assure you that defending the monster is definitely not easy for me. I hate it, in fact, but I had to come to its defense here because claiming that this is a better build is an outright lie.

I'm not "lying" about anything. I just posted a build and used the Monster to compare some numbers. Sneak Attack is situational and the Monster's DPS does not rely as much on Sneak Attack. On the flipside this build doesn't rely as much on crits as the Monster does. I would have to calculate them both but I'm sure they are close on 50% fort mobs.

*Edit - See calcs below.

Val

[Valezra]

Situation DPS has really been something I have been curious about. I went ahead and compared the Punisher to the Monster using various situational DPS figures.

Punisher / Monster

1. Stars Aligned Max Boosted DPS:
503.8 / 490

2. No Fighter or Rogue Haste Boost DPS:
431.65 / 384.74

3. No Fighter or Rogue Haste Boost DPS vs 50% Fortification:
343.95 / 312*

* This is an approximation. Should be accurate within +/- 5 DPS.

As you can see from #2 the Punisher is starting from a position of greater base DPS. Once fortification is added both builds lose DPS but as expected the Punisher loses much more. From #3 you can see the Punisher is still ahead but just by around 25 DPS.

These numbers are just for comparison only. I don't put any meaning behind them. These number also don't mean one build is "better" than the other.

Val

[Angelus_dead]

14 Paladin / 5 Rogue / 1 Fighter

Changing Fighter to Ranger would increase DPS and saves, at the cost of Toughness.

[Korvek]

When my madstone runs out so does the Monster's. When my haste boosts run out so does his. Notice that this build only uses a 20% haste boost and the monster relies on 30% boost. When both boosts are out this will do even more damage than the Monster against 0 fort mobs.

He was asking about Zeal, which could potentially be an issue if you're not being careful and Madstone re-procs around when Zeal runs out (given that Zeal can't be cast while Madstoned), though I don't expect you'll have the boots on at all times.

[valorik]

I don't understand why you don't just go 6 ranger instead of 5 rogue/1 fighter

what you gain from rogue:
3d6+ 8 (need to check this) sneak attack
evasion
heal scroll umd
rogue skills?
Intimidate?
haste boost
1 extra feat

What you gain from Ranger
10 hitpoints (negligable)
2 shield ac (probably negilgable)
10% speed increase
favored enemy damage vs. undead and evil outsiders
+3 damage via rams might
+4 fort saves (kind of pointless)
+2 BaB


if your dps stems from sneak attack, then unless you're using Radiance 2s, you're dps pretty much caps at either the highest you can do without it, or the highest another person can do to keep aggro off of you, but with teh ranger version, sneak attack matters a lot less.

You knew it had to come up some time, I want to see what you come up with.

[DragoonPenguin]

I don't understand why you don't just go 6 ranger instead of 5 rogue/1 fighter

what you gain from rogue:
3d6+ 8 (need to check this) sneak attack
evasion
heal scroll umd
rogue skills?
Intimidate?
haste boost

What you gain from Ranger
10 hitpoints (negligable)
2 shield ac (probably negilgable)
10% speed increase
2 free feats
favored enemy damage vs. undead and evil outsiders
+3 damage via rams might
+4 fort saves (kind of pointless)


if your dps stems from sneak attack, then unless you're using Radiance 2s, you're dps pretty much caps at either the highest you can do without it, or the highest another person can do to keep aggro off of you, but with teh ranger version, sneak attack matters a lot less.

You knew it had to come up some time, I want to see what you come up with.

getting tempest and GTWF on 6 lvls of ranger takes 4 feats. ya dont gain 2, you lose 1.

[Demoyn]

This is a khopesh build.

My apologies. I have no idea where I got rapier from.

As for the zeal part, though, I was referring to the recast. If you're madstoned and your zeal runs out then you're losing 10% DPS that entire time. I would never include madstone boots in a build that relies on short spell buffs.

[Kriogen]

Divine Might is lvl5, lvl10, lvl15, lvl20 Paladin/Cleric. You can't have DM III.

[maddmatt70]

My apologies. I have no idea where I got rapier from.

As for the zeal part, though, I was referring to the recast. If you're madstoned and your zeal runs out then you're losing 10% DPS that entire time. I would never include madstone boots in a build that relies on short spell buffs.

zeal is 3:40 and divine favor is going to be incread to a longer time so it will be 3:40 as well. That is plenty of time to after buffing yourself click on madstone boots or to even take off the boot after a 1:30 sec. It was less feasible to include madstone when divine favor was 2 min but now that it has been extended it is more feasible.

[Yargore]

Paladin is a poor choice for DPS.

1. Excellent DPS. Higher than a WF Monster... especially once the Fighter/Rogue Haste boosts both run out. Can burst a lot more damage as well via Exalted Smites.

That is not correct. You ignore the fact that The Monster have 8 haste boosts, and your calcs are pretty flawed.

With 100% haste boost efficiency (20 seconds) The Monster ends up at 548 DPS while your build ends up at 503 DPS.
Your build is also way more dependant on SA and EOs.

Removing SA and EOs leaves your DPS at 360 while the monster ends up at 470.

You will need alot more rogue levels if you're gonna beat The Monster

[Valezra]

Paladin is a poor choice for DPS.

No, it's just more situational. With KoTC, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites, and Divine Might the Paladin is actually an excellent DPS machine and can outburst any other melee class hands down.

That is not correct. You ignore the fact that The Monster have 8 haste boosts, and your calcs are pretty flawed.

Show me where my calcs are flawed. I don't really care that the Monster gets 3 more boosts than this build. It is made up during the other 10 seconds between boosts when the Punisher is doing a lot more damage. Which I have shown.

With 100% haste boost efficiency (20 seconds) The Monster ends up at 548 DPS while your build ends up at 503 DPS.
Your build is also way more dependant on SA and EOs.

When I assumed in a different thread the Monster DPS was 503 fully boosted because that is the way you calculated it here you responded by telling me the calc was done slightly wrong and the Monster DPS max is actually 490 DPS. Now your telling me it magically received 58 more DPS than what you already admitted was the max?

Removing SA and EOs leaves your DPS at 360 while the monster ends up at 470.

I already mentioned that the Punisher was more situational. Against a 100% fort mob that isn't an evil outsider I'm sure the builds are close.

You will need alot more rogue levels if you're gonna beat The Monster

Why do I need anything more when I am already beating it? And don't forget, when I can't get SA the Monster can't get crits... and the Monster relies heavily on crits. Don't get all upset because some other build out there can do a little more DPS than a Monster and have UMD to boot.

Someone also mentioned that DM III cannot be obtained. You are correct. That was an oversight on my part. I will adjust the starting stats to hopefully offset that loss and will show the revised calculations later.

Also, Zeal and Divine Favor will both last longer than Madstone Rage. My calcs don't include or need double Madstone Rage. While this build DOES require a lot of clicking it is far from impossible to plan out all your buffs.

Val

[Valezra]

Going to revise the initial setup to take the 1 level up point from Cha and put it back into Str then get exceptional Str +1 on my DT armor. This gives me a slight overall DPS loss from going to DM II from DM III but gains me another +1 to attack and +1 damage on the mainhand weapon.

Val

[Valezra]

getting tempest and GTWF on 6 lvls of ranger takes 4 feats. ya dont gain 2, you lose 1.

Right, and the Evasion, UMD, and Haste Boost for burst DPS are more important to me than getting tempest at this point. It may do a bit more damage but I really like the survivability of the current setup.

Val

[Valezra]

Changing Fighter to Ranger would increase DPS and saves, at the cost of Toughness.

Interesting consideration, though I wouldn't drop Toughness. OTWF would have to go but then my attack drops by 2 per hand. Tough call... nice alternative.

Val

[baddax]

So the monster is DEAD?
Long live the punisher!!

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Show me where my calcs are flawed. I don't really care that the Monster gets 3 more boosts than this build. It is made up during the other 10 seconds between boosts when the Punisher is doing a lot more damage. Which I have shown.

Your calculations are flawed because they only span over a 20 second time. 20 seconds of combat is hardly accurate. According to these forums every battles takes 10 minutes after all .

Incorrect, you have not shown that. Your build is at 430 with full sa and without boosts, the monster is at 430 with SA goggles and no haste boosts.
The Monster is at 548 over a 20 second span, the Punisher is at 503. Perhaps you should use some uptodate calculations and stop calcing 20 second calcs.

PS: The monster gets, 1 boost from extra boost enhancement, 2 boosts from kensai = 8 total.

When I assumed in a different thread the Monster DPS was 503 fully boosted because that is the way you calculated it here you responded by telling me the calc was done slightly wrong and the Monster DPS max is actually 490 DPS. Now your telling me it magically received 58 more DPS than what you already admitted was the max?.

Because that was without 100% haste boost, eg 5 minute battles; not 20 second.

Why do I need anything more when I am already beating it? And don't forget, when I can't get SA the Monster can't get crits... and the Monster relies heavily on crits.

You can't get SA when you have aggro, if you deal max dps you have aggro. SA is very situational on a Non-rogue.
Where the hell did you pull out that the Monster relies heavily on crits? Your build rely more on crits (exalted smites, divine sacrifices) than the Monster. Perhaps you should look into the build.

Just removing SA from your build drops it down 100 dps. Whilst the Monster only loses ~30 dps.

[Yargore]

No, it's just more situational. With KoTC, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites, and Divine Might the Paladin is actually an excellent DPS machine and can outburst any other melee class hands down.

Not saying that it's correct, but who cares about burst DPS?
Yay, you can get higher numbers than The Monster when you smite, how awesome. not.

Show me where my calcs are flawed. I don't really care that the Monster gets 3 more boosts than this build. It is made up during the other 10 seconds between boosts when the Punisher is doing a lot more damage. Which I have shown.


When I assumed in a different thread the Monster DPS was 503 fully boosted because that is the way you calculated it here you responded by telling me the calc was done slightly wrong and the Monster DPS max is actually 490 DPS. Now your telling me it magically received 58 more DPS than what you already admitted was the max?

If you don't care about the 3 extra boosts then that is one of the flaws in your calcs.

Your calc showed the DPS during the 20 seconds haste boost is active, but that doesn't give the full picture now does it?

The calc that gave The Monster 490 DPS was over an average of 5 minutes (53% haste boost efficiency with 8 boosts), while the calc that gave 548 only was over 20 sec (100% haste boost efficiency), like your calcs.

I already mentioned that the Punisher was more situational. Against a 100% fort mob that isn't an evil outsider I'm sure the builds are close.

The Monster is quite far ahead.
258 vs 303 DPS.

Why do I need anything more when I am already beating it? And don't forget, when I can't get SA the Monster can't get crits... and the Monster relies heavily on crits. Don't get all upset because some other build out there can do a little more DPS than a Monster and have UMD to boot.

LOL, why the heck would The Monster rely heavily on crits? Is it becuase of the 2 extra seeker damage? xD

[Valezra]

LOL it's so funny how rude people get when their favorite build comes into question. I'll rerun the numbers and see what I come up with for various situations.

I'll compare the builds for:

Burst DPS (20 Second)
Short Term DPS (5 Minute Fight)
Long Term DPS (10 Minute Fight)

And then the above for:
50% Fortification vs EO
50% Fortification vs Others
100% Fortification vs EO
100% Fortification vs Others

I'm doing this more to set up a good excel sheet I can use to give me realistic numbers.

Personally, I don't like to focus on damage via Boosts because no one ever considers the 1~2 second delay to activate the boost which in realistically lowers results.

Val