Khopesh vs Rapier DPS

[Valezra]

I couldn't find this anywhere on the forums so if it's been done before I apologize.

Assumptions:
1. Improved Critical or Keen Weapon.
2. Total bonus damage of 10, 25, 50 before base weapon damage or race considerations for calculations.
3. Land all hits on rolls 2-20.
4. Bloodstone.


Khopesh:
1d10 Base for Greensteel = 5.5 Avg

F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+5.5) * (15/20) = 11.625
Avg Crit = (10+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 12.9
Total = 24.525

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+5.5) * (15/20) = 22.875
Avg Crit = (25+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 21.9
Total = 44.775

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+5.5) * (15/20) = 41.625
Avg Crit = (50+5.5+6) * (4/20) * 3 = 36.9
Total = 78.525


Rapier (and Scimitar for Elf):
1d8 Base for Greensteel = 4.5 Avg

F(10):
Avg Hit = (10+4.5) * (13/20) = 9.425
Avg Crit = (10+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 12.3
Total = 21.725

F(10) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (10+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 10.725
Avg Crit = (10+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 13.5
Total = 24.225

F(25):
Avg Hit = (25+4.5) * (13/20) = 19.175
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 21.3
Total = 40.725

F(25) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (25+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 20.475
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 22.5
Total = 42.975

F(50):
Avg Hit = (50+4.5) * (13/20) = 35.425
Avg Crit = (50+4.5+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 36.3
Total = 71.725

F(50) elf/drow:
Avg Hit = (50+4.5+2) * (13/20) = 36.725
Avg Crit = (50+4.5+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 37.5
Total = 74.225

Comparison:

@ Damage (10) - Khopesh does 12.8% more damage than a rapier and 1.2% more damage than a drow/elf rapier.

@ Damage (25) - Khopesh does 9.9% more damage than a rapier and 4.2% more damage than a drow/elf rapier.

@ Damage (50) - Khopesh does 9.5% more damage than a rapier and 5.8% more damage than a drow/elf rapier.

***Edit*** It should be noted that for any setup as the bonus damage increases the advantage of the Khopesh over the Rapier eventually levels out at 8% regardless of the Elf/Drow bonus.

Burst Damage Comparison:
(Assume 1d10 on x2 crit, 2d10 on x3 crit, and 3d10 on 4x crit)

Khopesh Added Burst Damage = 11 * 4 / 20 = 2.2 damage/swing avg
Rapier Added Burst Damage = 5.5 * 6 / 20 = 1.65 damage/swing avg

Discussion:

When looking at the avg hit and the avg crit for a khopesh we find that more than 50% of the khopesh's total damage is coming from regular hits. In fact, Rapiers do more base crit damage than the Khopesh for drow/elf races (this can be offset by a loss in Burst damage for Rapiers however). This means that a miss on a 2 will have a greater DPS loss for the Khopesh user than it will for the Rapier user. Furthermore, elf/drow can take an additional +2 to hit meaning in some circumstances where the AC of the monster or boss is very high the drow/elf rapier user can do slightly higher damage than the Khopesh user.

Notice that as the total damage output increases the advantage of being elf/drow diminishes from only a 1.2% loss at 10 bonus damage to a 5.8% loss at 50 bonus damage.

This is of course circumstantial depending on the mob you are attacking but a good rule of thumb would be to go drow/elf rapier for 3/4 BAB classes such as bards and clerics to offset the loss in BAB and put the DPS on a closer playing ground to a full BAB khopesh user. If you are a paladin, fighter, barbarian, or cleric who spams Divine Power a lot then Khopesh will always provide the highest DPS. If you are an elf/drow and want to free up a feat (such as for the feat starved Paladin) you can go Rapiers and be confident that at the very worst you will probably only be doing 5% less damage than your Khopesh clone counterpart.

Val

[Arkat]

Try using Goodburst (like from a Shroud weapon). What are your conclusions then?

[Draccus]

I've heard loads of comments comparing these weapons but none had any data to back it up. This is good stuff, thanks Val!

[Valezra]

Try using Goodburst (like from a Shroud weapon). What are your conclusions then?

GoodBurst Damage Comparison:
(Assume 4d6 on x2 crit, 5d6 on x3 crit, and 6d6 on 4x crit)

Khopesh Added Burst Damage = 17.5 * 4 / 20 = 3.5 damage/swing avg
Rapier Added Burst Damage = 14 * 6 / 20 = 4.2 damage/swing avg

The rapier does .7 more damage/swing avg more than the khopesh. In order to do a complete "which weapon does more total damage" comparison I would have to compare two fully constructed GS weapons.

[Valezra]

I've heard loads of comments comparing these weapons but none had any data to back it up. This is good stuff, thanks Val!

Yeah i was always hearing the same as well... got tired of anecdotal information so I decided to calc it out. Thanks Dres.

[rimble]

Yeah, it's such a hard comparison, so many 'what ifs'...

Like Assumption #3 is in favor of the Khopesh. If you assumed Khopesh hits on a 4-20 and then Drow/Elf Rapier on a 2-20, that's another valid case. Few people miss fully Raid buffed, but it does happen, especially after Power Attack is on.

I also always like to consider a small weapon in the off-hand too. Sometimes you just need to step back down to a Rapier/Short Sword for that additional +2 ToHit. What does Khopesh use in the offhand in that case and how does it compare? I've never bothered trying to use Khopesh, they are too expensive and too hard to find (and I'm not much of a Shroud grinder).

[Nyvn]

It's my understanding that power attack also gives a larger boost to Khopesh vs Rapier/Scimitar.

[QuantumFX]

Might as well point out that elves with scimitars fall into this discussion as well thanks to the Valenar elven weapon enhancements. (A scimitar has the same stats as a rapier with the ability to bypass the more common DR/Slashing)

Also, other enhancements favor various weapons as well. ex. Exalted Smite, Kensai III

[Taojeff]

Hey Val,

Ok so what if Scimitars were used instead of rapiers and they had not the additional +2 for racial bonus but an unnamed total of +4. What would the numbers look like. This is all just hypothetical

[winsom]

In short, the Khopesh is better, but in DDO we also need to consider racial enhancements and weapon bursting effects and that can make Rapier better than Khopesh.

When Two Weapon Fighting the off-hand weapon's strength modifier is reduced. This reduction also makes for smaller critical damage. Racial enhancements get multiplied on a crit so elf, drow and dwarf two weapon fighters get an increase in off-hand DPS compared to other races.

Holy/Good Burst damage dice is different than Elemental Burst:
Holy/Good Burst rapier is +3d6 on a crit, This fits Rapier users very well as the crit range can be 15-20.
Compare that to 17-20 for Khopesh and +4d6 holy/good burst damage

Elves get up to +2 racial attack and damage bonus with longswords and rapiers. Soon this elf option can be changed to either scimitar or falchions.

DDO damage comparison tool: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/

That tools shows the nearly identical DPS when comparing equal strength elf rapier vs. human khopesh, assuming both are using Holy/Good Burst, with rapier dealing slightly more damage over time against the highest ACs due to the elven +2 attack bonus, and thats with single-handed attacking. If off-hand damage were added the elf would pull ahead in DPS.

When Power Attack is used the human Khopesh wielder will deal more damage against very low AC targets and the elven rapier user will deal more damage against mid-range and high AC targets.

It is very important to note that in my analysis the elven racial enhancement makes for most of the difference. If human rapier were compared to human khopesh then the khopesh would deal more damage in all situations.

[Valezra]

Okay, I'd like to reply on a couple of things mentioned.

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier. I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).

2. Good Burst on any weapon will always do less damage than Holy as the teir 1 for Min II weapons. Take rapier as an example: Good Burst = 1 * (19) + 3 * (6) d6 (or 37d6) total from rolls 2-20. Whereas Holy does 2 * 19 d6 (or 38d6) total from rolls 2-20. This difference is even greater on non-rapiers/scimitars.

3. The fact that Scimitar users will soon see the same dps benefits as a rapier user doesn't change the math. I figure if you're reading this thread you would already know Scimitars and Rapiers have identical DPS profiles. But you are totally correct for pointing that out. I will add a comment to that affect to the OP.

4. There is no logical explaination to bring off-hand weapons into the argument. An offhand weapon will suffer a strength reduction and nothing else. A dual Khopesh user and a dual Rapier user will see the same drop in bonus damage in the offhand. Example: A 30 Str khopesh user may get +25 damage to their mainhand but only +20 damage to their offhand while the rapier user will see +25 / +20 as well. This makes no difference on the calculations nor does it mean elf/drow rapier users will "pull ahead" of khopesh's because they are using two weapons. That is false.

The ONLY time Rapiers "pull ahead" of Khopesh's is when the Khopesh cannot hit on a roll of 2 or higher. Most full BAB classes do not have this problem if properly built.

Also, the dps comparison tool you linked does not calculate dps correctly. It is missing an off-hand attack hook. The inputs do not allow for "vorpal" damage (like Acid Blast), and the work is not shown for how Power Attack is implemented. There are other issues I have with it but I would highly recommend against using it to compare weapons. If you want to know how one weapon compares to another just calculate it out. If you are math inept then just post on the forums and someone will calc it for you.

taojeff: I'm assuming you are thinking of Favored Souls. Favored souls will benefit Scimitars over Khopesh's assuming an elf FS with +2 FS damage to the Scimitar on top of the +2 racial enhancement. (i only say "benefit" because it saves you a feat for almost identical dps (see below))

Math:

F(25) <--- just as one example:
Avg Hit = (25+4.5+2+2) * (13/20) = 21.775
Avg Crit = (25+4.5+2+2+6) * (6/20) * 2 = 23.64
Total = 45.415

Khopesh (25) = 44.775

At 25 bonus damage the FS Scimitar Elf will deal 1.4% more base damage than a human Khopesh weilding Favored Soul. If Acid Burst is on the weapon (a Mineral II for example) than the Khopesh gets an additional 11 * 4/20 = 2.2 avg Acid damage and a Scimitar gets an average 5.5 * 6/20 = 1.65 avg Acid damage. Since Holy (teir I) and Acid Blast (teir III) are the same for each weapon we can throw those out of the comparison. We are left with:

Khopesh (25) = 44.775 + 2.2 = 46.975
Scimitar (25) = 45.415 + 1.65 = 47.065

This puts the Scimitar weilding elf FS only .1% greater than say a human khopesh weilder. This is insignificant and can be considered equal. As the overall bonus damage increases even just a few points Khopesh comes out ahead again but will gain no significant ground over the FS elf Scimitar user for any reasonable amount of bonus damage a FS could hope to see.

[Mithran]

I'm not clear on why you guys have mentioned a reduction in damage for the offhand. My GTWF melees use OTWF. They're both drow; one uses rapiers and the other uses scimitars. The scimitar-using Ranger has Mineral/Radiance and the rapier-user is Paladin with two levels of Rogue for Intimidate/UMD. Are you assuming the absence of OTWF?

[Comfortably]

This puts the Scimitar weilding elf FS only .1% greater than say a human khopesh weilder. This is insignificant and can be considered equal. As the overall bonus damage increases even just a few points Khopesh comes out ahead again but will gain no significant ground over the FS elf Scimitar user for any reasonable amount of bonus damage a FS could hope to see.

Another great read Val, kudos. I do have a comment on that little segment there^. I know I'm rolling a Human TWF Khopesh FvS next mod, and staying pure for those kick ass capstones.

[Valezra]

Another great read Val, kudos. I do have a comment on that little segment there^. I know I'm rolling a Human TWF Khopesh FvS next mod, and staying pure for those kick ass capstones.

Thanks comf. The extra Human Feat with which to get Khopesh, and the fact that they don't have to invest nearly as many Action Points as the Elf to get the same or slightly better DPS is a huge incentive to go Human. However, the Elf will have a to-hit advantage of at least +3 over the khopesh user which is why I will probably go elf on my FS. This will help offset the frequency with which I will need to cast Divine Power.

Where can I find the FS capstone? I forget.

[Draccus]

Where can I find the FS capstone? I forget.

Compendium release notes has it: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...ted_Sneak_Peek

I'm making yet another attempt at an alt (I think this is alt attempt number 76 or so) and I may have found something I like playing. Human TWF Khopesh Barbarian/Rogue. He's made it to level 3, which is further than all but 4 of my previous alts.

[Valezra]

Compendium release notes has it: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...ted_Sneak_Peek

I'm making yet another attempt at an alt (I think this is alt attempt number 76 or so) and I may have found something I like playing. Human TWF Khopesh Barbarian/Rogue. He's made it to level 3, which is further than all but 4 of my previous alts.

LoL nice...

And thanks for the link... I happened to find it after I asked hehe. 40 Minutes of Shield means I won't have to worry about UMD as a Favored Soul. The question now will be which will I like playing more... my superfun Warpriest or the Favored Soul... I'm hoping the Warpriest Prestige enhancements close the gap between FvS and the Cleric.

[Gornn]

I'm not clear on why you guys have mentioned a reduction in damage for the offhand. My GTWF melees use OTWF. They're both drow; one uses rapiers and the other uses scimitars. The scimitar-using Ranger has Mineral/Radiance and the rapier-user is Paladin with two levels of Rogue for Intimidate/UMD. Are you assuming the absence of OTWF?

OTWF does nothing for damage. It benefits + to hit only.

Your strength bonus to damage is halved in your off hand attack. For example. If you had 30 strength. You main hand would get a +10 str bonus to damage, while your off hand gets a +5 bonus to damage.

Nothing currently in the game mitigates that loss of damage.

Oversized TWF affects to hit only. For example.

Wielding a rapier in one hand and nothing in the off hand, you have +20 to hit.

If you have a rapier and a shortsword (light weapon) in your off hand you have two attacks at +18/+18 (because the penalty to hit is -2 while dual wielding with a light weapon in the off hand)

If you wield two rapiers you have +16/+16 to hit (because wielding a one handed weapon in your off hand while dual wielding reduces all attacks by 4.)

If you are wielding two rapiers AND have the OTWF feat you get +18/+18 to hit. (OTWF treats the one handed weapon in your off hand as a light weapon)

[Aranticus]

Okay, I'd like to reply on a couple of things mentioned.

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier. I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).

false. PA favors the khopesh if both has the same to hit value. with PA, rapier adds (5x13) + (5x6x2) = 125 damage, khopesh adds (5x15) + (5x4x3) = 135 damage

4. There is no logical explaination to bring off-hand weapons into the argument. An offhand weapon will suffer a strength reduction and nothing else. A dual Khopesh user and a dual Rapier user will see the same drop in bonus damage in the offhand. Example: A 30 Str khopesh user may get +25 damage to their mainhand but only +20 damage to their offhand while the rapier user will see +25 / +20 as well. This makes no difference on the calculations nor does it mean elf/drow rapier users will "pull ahead" of khopesh's because they are using two weapons. That is false.

The ONLY time Rapiers "pull ahead" of Khopesh's is when the Khopesh cannot hit on a roll of 2 or higher. Most full BAB classes do not have this problem if properly built.

qft. regardless of how it goes, khopesh > rapier

see red

[Valezra]

false. PA favors the khopesh if both has the same to hit value. with PA, rapier adds (5x13) + (5x6x2) = 125 damage, khopesh adds (5x15) + (5x4x3) = 135 damage

::sigh::

Saying PA "favors" a weapon is no different than saying "hey if you have 2 extra strength that will favor Khopesh over a Rapier". Any modifier you use whether it is Divine Favor, Rage, Strength, Power Attack, etc. will give an overall greater increase in Khopesh DPS than it will in Rapier DPS.

The point to make is: whether or not you are a power attack user the Khopesh will do more damage (unless you are a Scimitar Elf FvS w/ 25 Bonus Damage or less).

By stating "PA favors Khopesh over Rapier" it is implied that not having Power Attack may in some way favor Rapier over Khopesh which is false.

[Angelus_dead]

1. Power Attack adds damage to the weapon just like any other damage modifier.

That sentence is true...

I calculated a total damage bonus of 10, 25, and 50 to give a range for comparison. If your bonus to damage is 20 and you turn on power attack for 25 it doesnt make a difference when comparing the two weapons... SO in short the "Power Attack favors Khopesh's" argument is actually false. If you watch, as the damage increases the Khopesh continues to lose ground on its advantage (but still retains one).

... and that claim is totally wrong.

Power Attack does favor the Khopesh over every other one-handed weapon. If you can't tell that, you need to back up and start thinking harder about what you're supposedly doing.